Aokiji Freezing Calcs (One Piece)

[Damage3245]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss and debate a feat performed by Aokiji, in chapter 319 of One Piece.

Essentially the feat is simply that Aokiji froze a vast volume of seawater, and to calc the feat would be to calc the Attack Potency of Aokiji's freezing/ice.

The first version of the calc was created by myself and was accepted at being 293.73 Megatons (Mountain level).

A second version of the calc has recently been created by KingTempest and has been accepted at being 1.069 Petatons (Continent level).

Obviously due to the vast difference in variables used, there is a wide range here in the results of the calcs. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the assumptions used in each calc, evaluate which calc is more reliable, and also verify the accuracy of the methods used.

I have my own arguments to give, but I'll save them for another post to leave the OP clear.


Since this will be a debate that does not focus on scaling at all but purely on the specifics of the calculations, I would ask that no non-Calc Group Member or non-Staff Member posts here with the exception of KingTempest. If you have something you want to bring up, bring it to either one of us, please.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Certified Damage Moment

 

[Damage3245]

Certified Damage Moment

I don't really know what you're referring to. KingTempest asked me if I wanted to make the Calc Group thread for this, and I said I would.

By your wording I can't tell if your post is meant positively or negatively.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I don't really know what you're referring to. KingTempest asked me if I wanted to make the Calc Group thread for this, and I said I would.

By your wording I can't tell if your post is meant positively or negatively.

It’s meant to be a joke

 

[Damage3245]

It’s meant to be a joke

Okay, no worries then. I have a pretty hard time reading jokes on here as they can sometimes come across as stealh insults.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Okay, no worries then. I have a pretty hard time reading jokes on here as they can sometimes come across as stealh insults.

It’s all fun and games here with me, I don’t mind at all if you do a calc thread discussion multiple versions of a feat

 

[Damage3245]

Aye.

Personally I do see some improvements in KingTempest's version of the calc, but there's also a few sections where I think an unwarranted assumption or two is used, and ideally I think a modified version of the calc should be made to be safer.

I'll share my detailed thoughts on it later today.

 

[KingTempest]

Thank you Damage.

Weird but W/e​

Also, I'm pretty sure this was the most recently used calc, as that was the one on his profile before any recalcs were done, instead of... whatever was there. Check the Aokiji history for proof.

First Calc​

The first calculation uses a very old and outdated method for the horizon distance. That was removed a while ago. Now we just assume 20km as that's the average viewing distance.

And this calculated result contradicts that as well. Even if you ignore my calculation's proof of a further horizon, we know that the distance is still at least 20km far. His final result for the distance was... a little over 20km. That would mean that we would see all 3 islands b4 the horizon hit, or at least 2, which doesn't make sense, since we don't see them. Not even a piece of the island.

Also, the premise that the depth of Aokiji's ice is uniform is a huge problem.

Not even the 12m depth, which I also disagree with as assuming he only froze the tidal depth is weird, but assuming it's like a huge cylinder of ice that he froze just doesn't make much sense. Ice and cold air doesn't travel like that. We can see with all of Aokiji's other instances of freezing that his ice doesn't just form like a floppy disc.

But what's worse is that it calculates the area as if it's a SQUARE instead of a cylinder. Specifically a rectangular prism. It doesn't accurately find a reliable method of finding its area, instead finding "length out", then "length sideways", then "random depth" and multiplying. A very basic volume formula.

The area outwards is based on him freezing over 3 islands.

Kuzan froze over three islands to get the old man to his destination, so multiple the distance by three:

Length = 7740 * 3 = 23220 m

That's flawed.
Don't multiply the distance of the water by 3 to account for 3 islands. That's just a bad assumption.

Speaking of "length sideways", this is weird.

Since the ice appears to extend into the distance in each direction we can assume that it extends as far as the horizon for the characters viewing it.

Width = 4682 * 2 = 9364 m

But the horizon he calced was

Horizon Distance = 3.57 * √(4.7) = 7740 metres

Weird.

Also, the 12m depth is him freezing the tidal depth. That has no basis except finding a distance that is related to water.

And he froze a giant sea king, and their serpentine bodies are so large to where the size above the ice would be dozens of times smaller than the size below the ice. If it was only 12m, it would've broken out of its hold.

The entire calc has flaws in every step of its way.

Second Calc​

My calculation with its depth makes an assumption that handles that. Assuming that he froze outwards the same direction he froze downwards.

But my issue was that in One Piece (and in the real world), the water stops a little over 10km downwards, so I chopped off all of the ice from under 10km.

I don't see an issue with my horizon distance, it's just saying "the planet has a different, larger, horizon distance."

Any argument against my depth would just be "I'm not a fan of using that". My calculation doesn't assume that he froze 600km down, I got it to 10km, making it for every 63.6 meters it goes, the ice goes a single meter down. Doesn't seem like a baseless assumption, or at least any assumption of untold proportions.

I also actually calculated the distance instead of just accounting for the distance of the horizon and multiplying it by 3. Each island and water distance varies, so saying that you just multiplied it by 3 is... unwise.

I wouldn't call my calculation flawless, but I think my calculation is a very solid one in the fact of the alternatives.

Since Aokiji says "It won't be safe to walk on after a week", I'm assuming that it would probably be countered by "that much ice won't melt in a week", which isn't the issue.
There would be so much water and cracked ice from other elements like sea kings rushing through the underwater areas that it would be unsafe to walk on after a week.

Also, Aokiji's ice is strong. His passive energy made glaciers and snow climates that are walking distance from magma that haven't melted in 2 years. 7 days for ice to melt doesn't even make sense.

Conclusion​

First calc is really bad and it might not even be the accepted calc.
Second calc is aight.

If it wants to be recalced, I think that my assumptions in my calculation should be debunked instead of just making another calculation with different assumptions and arguing who's assumptions are better.

 

[Damage3245]

Weird but W/e​

Also, I'm pretty sure this was the most recently used calc, as that was the one on his profile before any recalcs were done, instead of... whatever was there. Check the Aokiji history for proof.

That is possible. I posted the one in the OP because it was the more recently created re-calc and accepted, but it may not have been put on the profiles. The one from 2018 would have been the older version, not the latest previously accepted version.


I'll address the rest in my post later today.

 

[CloverDragon03]

If I had a nickel- Okay I’ve used that joke too much now. Point is, this is like the second time I’mma get involved in a calc thread made by Damage

Anyways, I accepted KT’s calc so naturally I’ll be leaning towards that one, and I think his post makes sense to me atm. Will wait for Damage’s response tho

 

[KingTempest]

If I had a nickel-

Almost virtually tackled you

 

[Damage3245]

I was originally planning to make a colossal response post as is typical in the past... but that's pretty lame IMO. I've done that before and its gets tiring after a few responses because the conversation tends to be handled in huge walls of text in order to cover every single point.


So I'm going to try just arguing one point at a time and see if we can reach a solution or understanding on each of those before moving onto the next.


The first thing I'll cover is the area used in KT's calculation. After going back over the calc and speaking with KT, as far as I understand it the area that is being used for the volume of ice is everything within these red lines:

Half of the other side of the hemispherical cap, or in essentially a semicircle forms the area. The radius of the semicircle being found from the center of it being where Aokiji initiates the freezing and the far end being the destination the old man has to reach on the 3rd island.

However, the above image is just my understanding of what should be going on here. There are a few concerns, such as:

Radius of the Semicircle

The above diagram is showing the semicircle as I would have done it, if I had chosen that area to use. It is a different radius to what is currently being used.

The current radius is found in this image:

And it took me a little while to understand why this was chosen as the radius for the freezing, but I understand it now.

The radius of the icy semicircle is being found here is being found by measuring essentially the diameter of a circle (the purple line) that contains both the starting point of the old man's journey and the ending point, with the rationale being that the ice covers the way along the full extent of his journey.

The issue however is that the arrows there aren't his literal path (nor his exact starting/ending points) but just a symbolic representation of him having to travel from island to island. This is apparent for a few reasons:

1) If you look at the shape of Long Ring Long Land with the tide receded, then we can see that the land bridge connects the islands together along their closest points. There is no extension of land off to the side where the path of the arrow up above would go. The arrows cannot be his actual normal journey.

2) Aokiji froze the sea from the point of the island where the villagers would normally depart along the land bridge, which would essentially be the closest point on the island to the next island and go over the land bridge. So the starting point of the arrow in the diagram above doesn't match what is actually happening in the scene.

3) The old man's intention is to get to his destination as soon as possible. It wouldn't make sense for him to walk such an indirect path that is several times longer than just walking directly from one island to the next.

By my estimate, the actual radius of the ice semicircle here should be 376.126126126 km, but you would probably want to do your own pixelscaling for that.

Area of the Islands

The second point related to the area is that two full islands reside within the radius of the semicircle no matter which radius value is used. That represents a volume that is not water being frozen so the area of these two islands should be subtracted from the total semicircular area before the volume is calculated.

 

[KingTempest]

What scan should I use to find the area now, the one I used before or the one showing the receding tide?

 

[Damage3245]

What scan should I use to find the area now, the one I used before or the one showing the receding tide?

I'd say the one I posted at the beginning of my previous post, personally.

That uses the same shape for what you've going for, with my best estimate of what the radius would be for a semicircle containing both necessary points on the islands.

 

[KingTempest]

I'd say the one I posted at the beginning of my previous post, personally.

That uses the same shape for what you've going for, with my best estimate of what the radius would be for a semicircle containing both necessary points on the islands.

Not that, I'm referencing the fact that the other scan that you linked (the first showing of the archipelago) shows the paths and the actual thing we're referencing, the tide

The shape and area and drawing can be easily replicated

Apparently the one we used was just a drawing, and the one from 305 was the accurate showing of the islands

 

[Damage3245]

Not that, I'm referencing the fact that the other scan that you linked (the first showing of the archipelago) shows the paths and the actual thing we're referencing, the tide

The shape and area and drawing can be easily replicated

Apparently the one we used was just a drawing, and the one from 305 was the accurate showing of the islands

Ah, I see what you mean. Both are fairly simplified versions IMO, but the one from 305 may be better to use, yeah.

So this green line would be the radius value instead:

 

[Damage3245]

@KingTempest Are we on the same page for the radius / area, and I can move on to the next point?

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah go ahead

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah go ahead

Cool. Working on my next post now.

EDIT: I've gotten a bit sidetracked today. Will definitely have it up tomorrow morning.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay, so the second part I was to address is the depth of water used for the freezing calc. @KingTempest

The issue with that is that it means the water went 636 km downwards, which is wrong. The seafloor is a little over 10km down in the OP world, so that would act like it's freezing nonexistent water.

The seafloor is not uniformly 10,000 meters deep, so far as I'm aware.

That has only been stated so far for the region where Fish-Man Island is, not the entire seafloor. The Straw Hats reach a section of seafloor known as the Underworld of the Sea when they're just 20,000 feet (or roughly 6 km) underwater.

On top of that, for Long Ring Long Island, there are landbridges under the surface of the water connecting the different "islands" all together, and these landbridges aren't going to be 10 km underwater if the tide recedes to make them visible for people to use to cross between the islands. So the depth of the water in that section has to be taken into account too.

 

[Damage3245]

@KingTempest No rush, but I wondered if you agreed with me on the depth part above?

 

[KingTempest]

I guess so

 

[Damage3245]

@KingTempest I apologize for pinging you, and I think I can guess what you'd prefer here, but just for the sake of this thread, do you still want to continue it or should I close it?

 

[KingTempest]

I'll do the honors