Yet another Shinza Bansho CRT: Gods Physiology revision

[QuasiYuri]

Intro​

Wanted to do cool aesthetic changes first, but someone made a thread regarding Gods, so might as well keep the best for the end.
Gods Physiology was made.

Some things are weird af.

Gonna correct what I find the weirdest.

Pseudo Gods​

Create a "Pseudo-God" category, they definitely don't belong to the same category as true ones for more than one reason.

They would need Energy Manipulation because of being able to turn "off" their Taiji, the same Summoning of their Kamunagara, maybe Large Size for said Kamunagara (although it is variable) and "Blessed" since they are under their "Patron God"

In term of weaknesses, they would only have the one related to being limited to their God's Territory.

Old World Mandalas users should be under the same category, except that they can't hold their form for long and will die, since the main deity did too.

Also they should be put in the "Summary" section, after the thing about Hado/Gudo.

Every Gods​

Soul Manipulation​

We're currently using atwiki as a proof for Soul Manipulation and Spiritual Aura. There's really no need. Even a mere scan of Aziluth being the last stage of Ewigkeit would be enough (idk why it isn't already put tbh, since it is kind of Godhood for dummies after all). Although there's the fact that Gudo only have their own soul to rely on in general, which should be definitely noted.

Also the "destroy the world with their presence" is kind of wrong, since Pseudo Gods, Gudo and even sometimes Hado were shown to be able to stay in the world. They only have to get out when they do a law clash, creating too much repainting and opening singularity holes.

Large Size and maybe AE/Intangibility​

Pseudo-Gods and Gudo are not big at all. Gudo are even called "human-sized universes" after all.

For Hado... Maybe use a better proof? Their laws themselves are definitely this size, but I'm not sure if a mere "the embobidment of foreknowledge" can be considered as a good proof. Their "true form" are usually not big, like Amaterasu being a tree.

Not trying to say they aren't, ofc. Just that better stuff would be appreciated.

Conceptual Manipulation​

"Infinite concepts" is an invention of the english translation, as shown in the 1-B downgrade thread, meaning it'll have to be removed.

Conceptual Manipulation revision didn't happened yet, which is kind of a pain, but something at least showing the independence of Taiji with the rest should be good enough too; or that laws and concepts are linked. Because for now our proof of Conceptual Manipulation is mere Creation.

Immortality, its negation, and Regeneration​

Immortality type 5 should be removed. Ren talking about outside life and death and all was because she was in the time-stopped Twilight Beach, and he was doing some reflexion on it. As a proof of the contrary, you litteraly have Ootake and Yakou killing their concept of death to come back, which wouldn't be possible if they were type 5; or Kikei Mandala Rindou whole thing, which is being a corpse.

Immortality negation is of all types because...? Gods themselves don't have every types to begin with. Only type 3 which is covered by Regeneration Negation

Acausality change​

Idk why we put their Acausality as type 5, but the current reasoning is definitely type 4; since it's "just" : existing outside of the world stuff and being under your own laws. Type 5 would need more than this.

I think Type 4 makes also more sense with some hado stuff being causality-based, like Shirou's MTA or Mercurius' law.

Law and Cosmic Awareness/(Nigh)Omniscience​

So the main gist of it is "they can know what happen in their law, therefore they are nigh omniscient when it doesn't go over the whole world, and omniscient when it does".

However... this would really just be Clairvoyance in their territory.

There's a shit tons of stuff against Omniscience (Hajun being a thing, Merc forgetting how much time he resetted and failing to get the ending he wants, Marie being unaware of Hajun coming to her and Masada possible scenario making her unaware of Teratoma without Reinhard's nature helping, etc...) and I don't think the way it was said was supposed to imply Omniscience or even "Nigh Omniscience" in any way.

Here's the thing we use, but under Imgur and with translations btw.

And that's without including the fact that for Gudo it would just means knowing their own body. "Omniscient about yourself" doesn't work well.

It would also mean that we could finally have actual Intelligence rating for the Gods, instead of just being "omniscient dude".

Omnipresence​

Kind of the same as before, but this time Gudo are "Omnipresent in their own body".

Not sure if you can say Hado truly are omnipresent in that none can reach where Naraka is or don't have their law everywhere the moment they aren't the Throne God.

I would put this more on the range/Large Size part of their Law than anything.

Transduality​

This one was started in another thread, but I said I was gonna add it so here we go.

As pointed out by @Fixxed, the justification for it is currently not a proof of Transduality. Besides what I explained a bit prior regarding the nature of Twilight Beach's statements, being outside the laws and concepts of the world isn't a proof of transcending all dual systems.

Best shot at it would likely be Avesta (although given the nature of Mithra's law, it is arguable), since Ryuusui's is more about Onmyoudou, which is the art used by humans.

And​

This also obviously affect the Longinuslanze Testament and their wielders (Rindou, Reinhard and Trifa)

 

[Fixxed]

Thanks for the CRT, totally agree with this

 

[ZERO7772]

It's funny how the more Yuri makes threads it seems like Shinza characters were put at the absolute peak of every category without even a made up reason at the very least to back it up.

Anyway I am neutral to the Transduality part so far.
Everything else seems to make sense.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I'm still waiting on Shinza Hax Downgrade lel

Anyway low-key agreed with what Yuri said

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Yuri is becoming the new mat

 

[ZERO7772]

I'm still waiting on Shinza Hax Downgrade lel

Isn't what this thread is doing so far? It's easy to miss if you skim through but most of his post is just downgrade/taking stuff out

 

[Galactic_Astronaut]

Following.

 

[ZERO7772]

Anyway this thread is gonna probably be a war once people realize how much the OP is taking off the gods.

Gonna enjoy this ~

 

[ZERO7772]

Just one thing.

Not sure if you can say Hado truly are omnipresent in that none can reach where Naraka is or don't have their law everywhere the moment they aren't the Throne God.

Do they need to cover Naraka's territory to count as one? Naraka exist on a higher plane than the Hadou Gods and probably transcend the throne system itself, I don't think has anything to do with them being omnipresent in their territory

 

[QuasiYuri]

Just one thing.


Do they need to cover Naraka's territory to count as one? Naraka exist on a higher plane than the Hadou Gods and probably transcend the throne system itself, I don't think has anything to do with them being omnipresent in their territory

Well, unlike profiles, Omnipresence on the page is put as a full one, which is why I thought of bringing it up (and we put them as Omniscient as long as they don't have to share their territory, despite Hajun being the only one succeeding to perceive Naraka, for example).

Although I'm not sure if it should be Omnipresence to begin with, as I said in the OP. It just doesn't seem to be like that? Idk how to explain it well.

Also Naraka is the Throne System itself, so I doubt that he transcend himself.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Isn't what this thread is doing so far? It's easy to miss if you skim through but most of his post is just downgrade/taking stuff out

I'm legit trying to find more stuff to add than to remove. But one is easier to do than the other I guess.

 

[ZERO7772]

Well, unlike profiles, Omnipresence on the page is put as a full one, which is why I thought of bringing it up (and we put them as Omniscient as long as they don't have to share their territory, despite Hajun being the only one succeeding to perceive Naraka, for example).

I mean sure the Omniscient thing makes no sense, still not sure what you are trying to say in regard to speed.
Naraka exist simply outside of their domains and reach so it has no bearing effects on their speed within their own territory unless I miss something.

Also Naraka is the Throne System itself, so I doubt that he transcend himself.

According to Avasta The throne is meant to keep THE Naraka in check

 

[ZERO7772]

I'm legit trying to find more stuff to add than to remove. But one is easier to do than the other I guess.

Spoiler: f

You think can outdo the Shinza fans w@nk? You won't find much to upgrade, you will find many you can downgrade tho

 

[QuasiYuri]

I mean sure the Omniscient thing makes no sense, still not sure what you are trying to say in regard to speed.
Naraka exist simply outside of their domains and reach so it has no bearing effects on their speed within their own territory unless I miss something.

That's more like, sure you would have "Omnipresent in your territory", but you have a speed rating. The only thing Gods have as of now Nigh-Omnipresence/Omnipresence with no speed rating; while it should be more like Hades.

 

[Planck69]

Well, this all seems to make sense to me so I agree.

F in the chat for Shinza.

 

[Antvasima]

Which members should I notify about this thread?

@Qliphoth_Bacikal , @SleepyTBubble and @TISSG7Redgrave of course, but are there any others?

 

[ZERO7772]

That's more like, sure you would have "Omnipresent in your territory", but you have a speed rating. The only thing Gods have as of now Nigh-Omnipresence/Omnipresence with no speed rating; while it should be more like Hades.

I mean, I have no issue downgrading their speed outside of their territory, I just took an issue with their in-territory speed

I am gonna stay Natural tho since this means we are also downgrade their speed big time.
Gonna have to hear first what other says.

You are suggesting MTFL+ for gods tho?

 

[QuasiYuri]

I mean, I have no issue downgrading their speed outside of their territory, I just took an issue with their in-territory speed

I am gonna stay Natural tho since this means we are also downgrade their speed big time.
Gonna have to hear first what other says.

You are suggesting MTFL+ for gods tho?

Their speed wouldn't get downgraded, they would just be Infinite like Pseudo Gods and Gudo. It's more that they lacked speed altogether.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Isn't what this thread is doing so far? It's easy to miss if you skim through but most of his post is just downgrade/taking stuff out

No, what i mean is the specific hax downgrades for Shinza characters like Soul things, Wilhelm suck, and Schreiber N G E E N G for example

But in the end, its about soul hax

 

[Darksmash]

I agree with this

It's extremely sad how all the twilight beach stuff is just flowery prose taken Absolutely literally because why not.

 

[WasWax]

I agree with this

It's extremely sad how all the twilight beach stuff is just flowery prose taken Absolutely literally because why not.

There's other verses on here that are extremely overstated because stuff is cherry picked and taken too literally as well.

 

[ZERO7772]

There's other verses on here that are extremely overstated because stuff is cherry picked and taken too literally as well.

I mean why do think most of the VNs are broken? It's the abuse of the flowery language thing.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Tbf I don't think it is exclusive to VNs, but we do take a bit too much flowery language as litteral.
Sure, everything isn't a deep metaphor, but everything isn't a detailed technical manual of what happen either.

 

[Antvasima]

Which members should I notify about this thread?

@Qliphoth_Bacikal , @SleepyTBubble and @TISSG7Redgrave of course, but are there any others?

Which knowledgeable members helped out in the previous Shinza threads?

 

[QuasiYuri]

Most I can think of already are here. Those who aren't are Infera28, Pain_to12 and KingPin0422

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks.

@Infera28 @Pain_to12 @KingPin0422

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[Infera28]

Also the "destroy the world with their presence" is kind of wrong, since Pseudo Gods, Gudo and even sometimes Hado were shown to be able to stay in the world. They only have to get out when they do a law clash, creating too much repainting and opening singularity holes.

I think the presence of the gods is able to destroy the world, but only the Throne Gods, because they are boosted by infinite universes and souls, so their spiritual presence is extremely powerful . Pseudo Gods and Gudou Gods aren't anywhere as powerful as them

If the presence of the gods can not destroy the world, then what is the reason for the existence of the Throne and the use of Avatars?

And it was said that Mercurius's powers are too enormous he can't even move within confined universe. Implying even his movement or presence destroys it

Conceptual Manipulation revision didn't happened yet, which is kind of a pain, but something at least showing the independence of Taiji with the rest should be good enough too; or that laws and concepts are linked. Because for now our proof of Conceptual Manipulation is mere Creation.

Taikyoku is source of phenomenon

Concept of darkness is a phenomenon

Personified concepts are Mercurius's dependents and the weakening of Mercurius's law led to the destruction of all them but the Methuselah

Methuselah is governed by Mercurius's law

Mercurius's end was close

The influence the Mercurius's law had on Methuselah is immense and as Mercuriu's law grows feeble, Methuselah, too, will weaken and vanish

Mercurius isn't in a good enough state, so there isn't much time for Methuselah left and his end is close too

For Hado... Maybe use a better proof? Their laws themselves are definitely this size, but I'm not sure if a mere "the embobidment of foreknowledge" can be considered as a good proof. Their "true form" are usually not big, like Amaterasu being a tree.

i'm not sure about large size but what is your opinion about these feats?

Gods are absolute avatars of the world

Mercurius's snakes encompassed universe

Mithra's eyes couldn't be seen as anything else than the universe itself condensated in them. Mithra was microcosm of world and embodiment of the world of dualism

We also have these feats

Not sure if you can say Hado truly are omnipresent in that none can reach where Naraka is or don't have their law everywhere the moment they aren't the Throne God.

I would put this more on the range/Large Size part of their Law than anything.

Naraka was on a existential level beyond them and outside of their domains. It was stated that Naraka is hardware and gods are software. They are nigh omnipresent but only in their domains. Look at those Wilhelm and Marie feats

 

[Infera28]

I'm pretty iffy about fully removing transduality. They should at least have type 2 transduality. It was stated that Taiji is source of all dualities and exists outside of them and it was about taiji not some painting. It was confirmed in atwiki too

陰と陽にも属さない技術として枠外にある法。

A law that is outside the box as a technology that does not even belong to Yin and Yang.

And even conceptual dualities are determined by Mithra's law

この世にある全ての二元的な現象、概念が流転し万華鏡の如く形を変える綾模様の大曼荼羅。絶対的な法のもと敵対するものが定められたその空間は宇宙の縮図、超級規模の織物。
そのような異色な空間に坐す、相反する感情を両立しながら存在する宇宙規模の総体を持つ何か。

The large Weave patterened Mandala where all the dualistic phenomenon and concept in this world shifts and changes like a Kaleidoscope. The extent of super fabric is the microcosm of the universe, in which the opposition is to be determined by the absolute law.
There is something that possesses the whole extent of the universe while it coexists with the conflicting emotions that sits in such an unusual space.

And it is clear that concept of darkness Methuselah and his duality concept of light were under the control of Mercurius's law. The whole story was about the Metuselah and his duality

So we know concepts of darkness and light existed, they were dualities and under Mercurius's domain. It is already type 1 transduality and then we have statements about Taiji and Mithra creating concepts and existing beyond all dualities too. Even Mithra's law is known as dualism and works with dualities so idk how they haven't transduality at all

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think the presence of the gods is able to destroy the world, but only the Throne Gods, because they are boosted by infinite universes and souls, so their spiritual presence is extremely powerful . Pseudo Gods and Gudou Gods aren't anywhere as powerful as them.

Teratoma is a pseudo god sooo

I think it's more because the Throne God is the one who control the world. After all challengers Gods are supposed to be comparable but don't necessarily destroy the world with their presence. Although it is put at the "every gods section" for now, so I don't think that's the reason used.

I think that it would be good to have a "everything covered by Apostle Physiology on a higher level" or something for Gods page too, which would allow stuff like Soul Manipulation to have less proof except scale.
I think we should maybe separate the fact that only Hado get powered by others souls as "Absorption" under their sections.

If the presence of the gods can not destroy the world, then what is the reason for the existence of the Throne and the use of Avatars?

Throne is the final assertion of your dominance, and you can't "just" leave it iirc.

And it was said that Mercurius's powers are too enormous he can't even move within confined universe. Implying even his movement or presence destroys it

This could work, although it wouldn't be Spiritual Aura here. Just having your presence destroying everything seems a bit contradictory with the showing I think (after all a direct clash of two gods just do a hole).

Taikyoku is source of phenomenon

Concept of darkness is a phenomenon

Personified concepts are Mercurius's dependents and the weakening of Mercurius's law led to the destruction of all them but the Methuselah

Methuselah is governed by Mercurius's law

Mercurius's end was close

The influence the Mercurius's law had on Methuselah is immense and as Mercuriu's law grows feeble, Methuselah, too, will weaken and vanish

Mercurius isn't in a good enough state, so there isn't much time for Methuselah left and his end is close too

Good scans. Although I don't think they would be enough for Type 2 (or future type 1) Conceptual Manipulation, which is why I thought of the scans explaining how a God's law is independent.

i'm not sure about large size but what is your opinion about these feats?

Gods are absolute avatars of the world

Mercurius's snakes encompassed universe

Mithra's eyes couldn't be seen as anything else than the universe itself condensated in them. Mithra was microcosm of world and embodiment of the world of dualism

We also have these feats

Well, I think yknow my stance about Avesta english summaries usage. Especially with sentences that can easily look flowery

Mercurius himself would have the Large Size regardless, but not all Gods are big bug snakes, which was why I was thinking of getting new scans besides him.

The "avatar of world" scan actually makes me think of something Masada explained in the K3 VFB, about what if a Gudo beat a Hado or the consequences of not having a new Throne God (unless there's Moshka shenanigans). Will get it tommorow.

Whilhelm and Marie feats are definitely omnipresence in their domain tho. They are very good proof of it. Definitely should be added.

Naraka was on a existential level beyond them and outside of their domains. It was stated that Naraka is hardware and gods are software. They are nigh omnipresent but only in their domains. Look at those Wilhelm and Marie feats

Masada words were that "the changes of the Throne" are the software iirc.

But yeah, they should have (Nigh) Omnipresence in their domain, in addition to their normal speed rating.

Good job with the scans btw.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I'm pretty iffy about fully removing transduality. They should at least have type 2 transduality. It was stated that Taiji is source of all dualities and exists outside of them and it was about taiji not some painting. It was confirmed in atwiki too

陰と陽にも属さない技術として枠外にある法。

A law that is outside the box as a technology that does not even belong to Yin and Yang.

And even conceptual dualities are determined by Mithra's law

この世にある全ての二元的な現象、概念が流転し万華鏡の如く形を変える綾模様の大曼荼羅。絶対的な法のもと敵対するものが定められたその空間は宇宙の縮図、超級規模の織物。
そのような異色な空間に坐す、相反する感情を両立しながら存在する宇宙規模の総体を持つ何か。

The large Weave patterened Mandala where all the dualistic phenomenon and concept in this world shifts and changes like a Kaleidoscope. The extent of super fabric is the microcosm of the universe, in which the opposition is to be determined by the absolute law.
There is something that possesses the whole extent of the universe while it coexists with the conflicting emotions that sits in such an unusual space.

And it is clear that concept of darkness Methuselah and his duality concept of light were under the control of Mercurius's law. The whole story was about the Metuselah and his duality

So we know concepts of darkness and light existed, they were dualities and under Mercurius's domain. It is already type 1 transduality and then we have statements about Taiji and Mithra creating concepts and existing beyond all dualities too. Even Mithra's law is known as dualism and works with dualities so idk how they haven't transduality at all

For Ryuusui scans, it talks about Onmyoudou, which is the art she, Ryuumei and Yakou use rather than true duality. Ying and Yang is this art aren't really the true Ying and Yang found in religion.

I don't mind something like "Type 1, possibly Type 2" based on Mithra and maybe Methuselah tho.

 

[Infera28]

I think it's more because the Throne God is the one who control the world. After all challengers Gods are supposed to be comparable but don't necessarily destroy the world with their presence.

Maybe because they can activate and deactivate negative aspects of their presence or concentrate their power? but one mistake destroys the world, that's why the throne is necessary to keep their powers in check all the time

Reinhard's presence always hurt the souls of Ren and the other, but it did not have such an effect on the Rea, Marie in his castle and the people in Berlin or Wilhelm's presence wasn't doing anything but then Wilhelm suddenly got serious and his presence effected and almost killed Ren. So it makes sense to say that they can activate and deactivate negative aspects of their presence or concentrate their power. We can clearly see the concentration of power here that Hadou God Reinhard's attack could only destroy one city. It was also said that only Tenma Yato was deliberately fighting in such a way that the world would not be destroyed. We see 24-dimensional gods whose struggles do not destroy the world, so it is logical to say that they can concentrate and control their powers unless they are only low 2-C or some

Throne is the final assertion of your dominance, and you can't "just" leave it iirc.

According to Reinhard, the only reason he used Avatar was because his power will destroy the world and world was too confined and small for him

This could work, although it wouldn't be Spiritual Aura here. Just having your presence destroying everything seems a bit contradictory with the showing I think (after all a direct clash of two gods just do a hole).

Muzan, Nerose, Mercurius, Hajun and i think Gudou Gods make the hole themselves. The struggle of the two gods creates a hole, but they alone can create it too, Clash is one of the few ways for making a hole

Well, I think yknow my stance about Avesta english summaries usage. Especially with sentences that can easily look flowery

Mercurius himself would have the Large Size regardless, but not all Gods are big bug snakes, which was why I was thinking of getting new scans besides him.

The "avatar of world" scan actually makes me think of something Masada explained in the K3 VFB, about what if a Gudo beat a Hado or the consequences of not having a new Throne God (unless there's Moshka shenanigans). Will get it tommorow.

it was not flowery language. In fact, Zurvan had been transferred to the throne and was looking into the gigantic eyes of Mithra, who saw the world through them, then he saw all conceptual dualities in throne and right after that Mithra called herself law of world. The whole scene was also in line with the cosmology, physiology of the gods and what we read in shinza

Mercurius definitely wasn't a creature the size of the world fighting against human-sized Ren and Reinhard, they were as big as him. It was also said that Marie was the size of her own law, lost her corpreal body and expanded with اer law and Wilhelm's domain was his belly. So i think giving large size to all gods makese sense. It was stated that Reinhard encompassed a universe at equal level too

In the same scene that was said about world's avatar , it was also said that Mercurius's death will destroy the world, so he was really world's avatar. It was also multiple times stated in Marie route and we know they are embodiemtns of laws and worlds

Masada words were that "the changes of the Throne" are the software iirc.

Simply put, the gods of the Throne are nothing but software, with Naraka being the hardware that houses all of them. Even Hajun, no matter how potent he is, did not come close to matching his strength.

For Ryuusui scans, it talks about Onmyoudou, which is the art she, Ryuumei and Yakou use rather than true duality. Ying and Yang is this art aren't really the true Ying and Yang found in religion.

I don't mind something like "Type 1, possibly Type 2" based on Mithra and maybe Methuselah tho.

It does not change the fact that Taiji was said to be the source of everything in the way of yen and yang, related to nucleus of the universe and it was confirmed by japanese fans in atwiki tho

Taikyoku--Origin of all things in Onmyoudou (Way of Yin and Yang), concept pointing to the nucleus of the universe.

I think straight up type 2 makes more sense. I thought it was accepted that gods created all concepts and they are beyond all concepts even space-time but not all their extensions and Mithra's law (in both translation and japanese) mentioned all conceptual dualities not few dualistic systems. I already sent translation and japanese version

 

[QuasiYuri]

Maybe because they can activate and deactivate negative aspects of their presence or concentrate their power? but one mistake destroys the world, that's why the throne is necessary to keep their powers in check all the time

Given how Yato could easily do so, and Reinhard, whose entire thing is loving destruction was able to; Throne God could definitely do the same if they wanted. Given how no Throne God were shown to left their Seat + the fact that creating a Sensory is something especially granted by the Seat only, I find more coherent that they just can't leave.

Reinhard's presence always hurt the souls of Ren and the other, but it did not have such an effect on the Rea, Marie in his castle and the people in Berlin or Wilhelm's presence wasn't doing anything but then Wilhelm suddenly got serious and his presence effected and almost killed Ren. So it makes sense to say that they can activate and deactivate negative aspects of their presence or concentrate their power. We can clearly see the concentration of power here that Hadou God Reinhard's attack could only destroy one city. It was also said that only Tenma Yato was deliberately fighting in such a way that the world would not be destroyed. We see 24-dimensional gods whose struggles do not destroy the world, so it is logical to say that they can concentrate and control their powers unless they are only low 2-C or some

Not saying that they can't control their powers, kind of the opposite. We know that they can, meaning them being strong wouldn't be a reason to not come to the world. It also makes little sense in the case of Hajun, who would just have to go to the world to fullfill his wish.

I also think it would be better to replace it with "all Die Ewigkeit users abilities", to not have to use wikis as proof.

According to Reinhard, the only reason he used Avatar was because his power will destroy the world and world was too confined and small for him

Not sure about Reinhard, since he says that he share this feeling despite fighting in the world a bit before. If it was just (Hado) Gods in general, it would happen all the time, not only when you are the Throne God.

Muzan, Nerose, Mercurius, Hajun and i think Gudou Gods make the hole themselves. The struggle of the two gods creates a hole, but they alone can create it too, Clash is one of the few ways for making a hole

Gudous made it through a fight, but others case are true.

It was not flowery language. In fact, Zurvan had been transferred to the throne and was looking into the gigantic eyes of Mithra, who saw the world through them, then he saw all conceptual dualities in throne and right after that Mithra called herself law of world. The whole scene was also in line with the cosmology, physiology of the gods and what we read in shinza

Mercurius definitely wasn't a creature the size of the world fighting against human-sized Ren and Reinhard, they were as big as him. It was also said that Marie was the size of her own law, lost her corpreal body and expanded with اer law and Wilhelm's domain was his belly. So i think giving large size to all gods makese sense. It was stated that Reinhard encompassed a universe at equal level too

In the same scene that was said about world's avatar , it was also said that Mercurius's death will destroy the world, so he was really world's avatar. It was also multiple times stated in Marie route and we know they are embodiemtns of laws and worlds

The thing about Merc's death is more what Masada explained in the VSB. If you die because you are killed by your Apoptosis, then the world would disappear because it would be a "suicide of God" (maybe would also give limited Existence Erasure to Throne Gods?), if you die by fighting and aren't replaced, the "source of reason" isn't here anymore, and new life just won't be created or reincarnated.

But I'm fine with type 11 as long as it is Hado only then (human-sized dudes punching multiverse sized guys like chads).

Simply put, the gods of the Throne are nothing but software, with Naraka being the hardware that houses all of them. Even Hajun, no matter how potent he is, did not come close to matching his strength.

Exact words were
座の交代はソフトウェアの変更であり、ナラカというハードがあってこそ機能する。which is more "change of the seat", although it refers to the same either way.

It does not change the fact that Taiji was said to be the source of everything in the way of yen and yang, related to nucleus of the universe and it was confirmed by japanese fans in atwiki tho

Taikyoku--Origin of all things in Onmyoudou (Way of Yin and Yang), concept pointing to the nucleus of the universe.

I think straight up type 2 makes more sense. I thought it was accepted that gods created all concepts and they are beyond all concepts even space-time but not all their extensions and Mithra's law (in both translation and japanese) mentioned all conceptual dualities not few dualistic systems. I already sent translation and japanese version

Already explained what Onmyoudou referred to. It's an art used by humans and not true duality here.

Although in Mithra's case, she embodies her law, which is why I was unsure for Type 2. But if others think that it makes sense, I don't mind it.

 

[Fixxed]

And it is clear that concept odarkness Methuselah and his duality concept of light were under the control of Mercurius's law. The whole story was about the Metuselah and his duality

So we know concepts of darkness and light existed, they were dualities and under Mercurius's domain. It is already type 1 transduality and then we have statements about Taiji and Mithra creating concepts and existing beyond all dualities too. Even Mithra's law is known as dualism and works with dualities so idk how they haven't transduality at all

Agree with this.

Taikyoku--Origin of all things in Onmyoudou (Way of Yin and Yang), concept pointing to the nucleus of the universe.

I think straight up type 2 makes more sense. I thought it was accepted that gods created all concepts and they are beyond all concepts even space-time but not all their extensions and Mithra's law (in both translation and japanese) mentioned all conceptual dualities not few dualistic systems. I already sent translation and japanese version

Definitely i agree become TD2 with this Feats

Already explained what Onmyoudou referred to. It's an art used by humans and not true duality here.

Although in Mithra's case, she embodies her law, which is why I was unsure for Type 2. But if others think that it makes sense, I don't mind it.

For real? if this is just an art, then no feats is worth it to be TD2

 

[QuasiYuri]

For real? if this is just an art, then no feats is worth it to be TD2

It would only put the scene with Yakou/Ryuusui out of the way tho, not the rest.

 

[Antvasima]

Have you reached any conclusions here so far?

 

[ZERO7772]

QuasiYuri making a bit more sense so far ​

 

[PrinceofPein]

being outside the laws and concepts of the world isn't a proof of transcending all dual systems

Taikyoku says they do tho
Whether type 1 or 2 I can't pick tho

Idk why we put their Acausality as type 5, but the current reasoning is definitely type 4; since it's "just" : existing outside of the world stuff and being under your own laws. Type 5 would need more than this.

Do you mind clarifying what else type 5 will need? Marie is not affected by merc's law, exist outside any change the law does.

Edit: do the godou gods also after hajun law was completed count?

N.B. just asking questions here, don't really know how trans work

 

[Planck69]

Do you mind clarifying what else type 5 will need? Marie is not affected by merc's law, exist outside any change the law does.


N.B. just asking questions here

Existing outside of laws is just Type 4 though. They'd need to prove they're beyond all possible cause and effect in the setting. And there's still still some sequence of causality they follow, based on the succession of Throne Gods and Mercurius' abilities.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Planck69.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Existing outside of laws is just Type 4 though. They'd need to prove they're beyond all possible cause and effect in the setting. And there's still still some sequence of causality they follow, based on the succession of Throne Gods and Mercurius' abilities.

In Marie case she was beyond merc's law, well this may be cause of merc wanting her to take over the throne or something but the twilight beach was something that is not bound by merc law or the effect of it