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Another Gaim Revision

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Jasonsith said:
1. Immeasurable/Infinite speed by travelling through time by sheer speed seems weird for me if such ability can be summarised as time travel. I can at most accept "at least" a quantifiable speed, "possibly immeasurable".

2. Mai's inability to alter things can be explained by some imperfect fate manipulation (or should I say, lack of such).

3.
What Lonkitt and Sir_Ovens said seems reasonable for me to concur.
And for everything else... I remain neutral for now.
Click to expand...
For the second one, i believe it is some kind of time paradox rule or such, but it still doesn't stop her from traveling through time again and again.
 
Jamesthetaker said:
For the second one, i believe it is some kind of time paradox rule or such, but it still doesn't stop her from traveling through time again and again.
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Another fair explanation. But yeah she could still travel through time with her time travel abilities.
That does not mean infinite or even immeasurable speed.
 
Jasonsith said:
Another fair explanation. But yeah she could still travel through time with her time travel abilities.
That does not mean infinite or even immeasurable speed.
Click to expand...
Immeasurable speed is being able to physically travel through time via sheer speed, no? Although there is some concern over it, the feat is pretty clear cut on screen.
 
Most time machines in fiction can time travel physically, wiki don't give immeasurable speed for this
"Transcend space-time" mean nothing in context aside limited acausality type 2, even it implied time travel then it could be flowery for this. Blazblue and DBH have "transcend space-time" for time travel physically, the former lost its immeasurable speed, the later is just MFTL+ due other feats
Even it's via speed, Flash and any speedster (arrowverse, too lazy to link profile) would be example for non-immeasurable speed characters for this
 
I dissagree with Immeasurable speed in anyway
Also: "How the f*** Omnipresent beings who already one with Entirely of multiverse barely time travel and couldn't go back from another timeline in same multiverse?? Despite they're literally already there and everywhere else due their omnipresent lol?? Or Gaim never have omnipresent at all, only Kugai. Iirc you said he already have omnipresent before golden fruit due Sengoku Driver in L1C revision, so why Gaim scale to it at all? Megahex literally biggest inconsistencie for this, Whole of His Plan is tried to merge with Earth and rest of universe ??? Even After he absorbed God Gaim's power who already ONE WitH All Of Existence lol???
 
Jamesthetaker said:
Transcended space-time statement being supplementary evidence of time travel possibly being done via sheer speed.

The clip literally shown Mai moving through time by herself.
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"Transcending space and/or time" doesn't really mean anything to treat their time/dimension travel as anything greater.
 
Rabbit2002 said:
Most time machines in fiction can time travel physically, wiki don't give immeasurable speed for this
"Transcend space-time" mean nothing in context aside limited acausality type 2, even it implied time travel then it could be flowery for this. Blazblue and DBH have "transcend space-time" for time travel physically, the former lost its immeasurable speed, the later is just MFTL+ due other feats
Even it's via speed, Flash and any speedster (arrowverse, too lazy to link profile) would be example for non-immeasurable speed characters for this
Click to expand...
Transcend space-time here is just supplementary evidence, the main point is Mai is capable of traveling through time via sheer speed.

Again, don't bring other verses here to discard my point. Blazblue immeasurable speed is questionable because they are using the Boundary to perform said feat which why they are bring up in the first place. I don't known about DBH one but it is clealy unrelated to my argument. CW Flash done it via FTL speed with entirely different mechanic.

Rabbit2002 said:
I dissagree with Immeasurable speed in anyway
Also: "How the f*** Omnipresent beings who already one with Entirely of multiverse barely time travel and couldn't go back from another timeline in same multiverse?? Despite they're literally already there and everywhere else due their omnipresent lol?? Or Gaim never have omnipresent at all, only Kugai. Iirc you said he already have omnipresent before golden fruit due Sengoku Driver in L1C revision, so why Gaim scale to it at all? Megahex literally biggest inconsistencie for this, Whole of His Plan is tried to merge with Earth and rest of universe ??? Even After he absorbed God Gaim's power who already ONE WitH All Of Existence lol???
Click to expand...
The point here is to give Gaim speed while he is in manifested form. Only Mai has weakness of unable to travel through timeline, Gaim has no problem doing it since he already has dimensional travel + on top of being omnipresence. Yes, i known movie and novel usually contradict each other but we cannot expected the writer to put everything under the rag and ignore an established lore given to Gaim.

The reason why Gaim scales to Kugai is already explained above.
 
Guys upon further rumination, I think Gaim being Immeasurable is inconsistent. I don't think the feats themselves are necessarily wrong, but like in practice it doesn't make sense. Gaim in the show does not move at immeasurable speeds and can talk to other people like Sougo normally. Moreover, Decade and Grand Zi-O are not moving at immeasurable speeds as well despite both having Gaim's powers. The only good case I think is Oma Zi-O since he's depicted as never going all out in all his appearances but that would mean Trinity scales, and that is kinda wrong since that means Ginga scales too.
 
Oh wait I totally forgot that I didn't state my opinion on this. Yeah, I personally do not believe that Gaim can be placed at immeasurable
 
Sir_Ovens said:
Guys upon further rumination, I think Gaim being Immeasurable is inconsistent. I don't think the feats themselves are necessarily wrong, but like in practice it doesn't make sense. Gaim in the show does not move at immeasurable speeds and can talk to other people like Sougo normally. Moreover, Decade and Grand Zi-O are not moving at immeasurable speeds as well despite both having Gaim's powers. The only good case I think is Oma Zi-O since he's depicted as never going all out in all his appearances but that would mean Trinity scales, and that is kinda wrong since that means Ginga scales too.
Click to expand...
To be fair, both omnipresence and immeasurable were hardly portrayed on-screen for Gaim. However, it should take in consideration that both power were an part of established lore of the Golden Fruit and we cannot ignore it because inconsistent term. Let me lay out something here:

Kiwami Gaim & Ryugen VS Jam: This fight is clealy one-sided given that Jam barely did any notable damage to the heroes, it's safe to assume that Gaim obviously went easy so that Micchi could went through a character development atone for his sins and all.

Kiwami Gaim VS Megahex: Megahex was consistently shown to be much stronger than Gaim early on, even taking Kiwami Lockseed from him at one point. Plus, he is a one-off character so all his feats is neatly tied in one movie.

Movie crossovers like Heisei Generation Final and Dr. Pac-Man vs. Ex-Aid & Ghost with Legend Rider however, they seem to equalized his power on par with other Riders so he would not stomped everybody, as with Drive and Wizard.

In Zi-O though, i think he wanted to have a normal conversation with Sougo because why would he do otherwise?

For Decade, he don't have Gaim power at base so i have change to Complete 21 instead. For Grand Zi-O, i believe he only has Kiwami power by touching the engraved symbol on the armor. Technically, both of them need to activated Gaim's abilities first as they don't blitzed anybody right off the bat.

Ohma Zi-O, like you said, never going all out in all his appearances and that one time Trinity caught him off guard might be outlier because he was trying to teach Sougo about path of king rather than outright kill him.
 
Basically my point are:

Omnipresence/Immeasurable are inherently ability of Gaim. People who obtained a portion of Golden Fruit (Kugai, Mai) has portrayed aforementioned abilities on-screen or direct statement, Gaim benefit directly from them due possessing complete Golden Fruit.

PIS might have been a more correct term with how Gaim are treated as far as we've known. The opponent he've faced are either got stomped or stomped him per above example, the writer obviously don't want to make him a game-breaking character so they have equalized his stat or completely ignore some of his abilities to avoid same situation over again.

Neither base Decade or Grand Zi-O has immeasurable speed at the beginning, we have seen that they need to manually active said Rider power to uses it.

Trinity best feat against Ohma was sending him flying and that's all. Ohma clearly weren't set on killing his younger self, much less than seriously fighting against someone whom he deemed unworthy of his power at that point.
 
Ok yeah only Oma should have the immeasurable speed from Gaim then. Everyone else would be circumstantial like Grand Zi-O only getting it through summoning Gaim.
 
Jamesthetaker said:
To be fair, both omnipresence and immeasurable were hardly portrayed on-screen for Gaim. However, it should take in consideration that both power were an part of established lore of the Golden Fruit and we cannot ignore it because inconsistent term. Let me lay out something here:

Kiwami Gaim & Ryugen VS Jam: This fight is clealy one-sided given that Jam barely did any notable damage to the heroes, it's safe to assume that Gaim obviously went easy so that Micchi could went through a character development atone for his sins and all.

Kiwami Gaim VS Megahex: Megahex was consistently shown to be much stronger than Gaim early on, even taking Kiwami Lockseed from him at one point. Plus, he is a one-off character so all his feats is neatly tied in one movie.

Movie crossovers like Heisei Generation Final and Dr. Pac-Man vs. Ex-Aid & Ghost with Legend Rider however, they seem to equalized his power on par with other Riders so he would not stomped everybody, as with Drive and Wizard.

In Zi-O though, i think he wanted to have a normal conversation with Sougo because why would he do otherwise?

For Decade, he don't have Gaim power at base so i have change to Complete 21 instead. For Grand Zi-O, i believe he only has Kiwami power by touching the engraved symbol on the armor. Technically, both of them need to activated Gaim's abilities first as they don't blitzed anybody right off the bat.

Ohma Zi-O, like you said, never going all out in all his appearances and that one time Trinity caught him off guard might be outlier because he was trying to teach Sougo about path of king rather than outright kill him.
Click to expand...
Jamesthetaker said:
Basically my point are:

Omnipresence/Immeasurable are inherently ability of Gaim. People who obtained a portion of Golden Fruit (Kugai, Mai) has portrayed aforementioned abilities on-screen or direct statement, Gaim benefit directly from them due possessing complete Golden Fruit.

PIS might have been a more correct term with how Gaim are treated as far as we've known. The opponent he've faced are either got stomped or stomped him per above example, the writer obviously don't want to make him a game-breaking character so they have equalized his stat or completely ignore some of his abilities to avoid same situation over again.

Neither base Decade or Grand Zi-O has immeasurable speed at the beginning, we have seen that they need to manually active said Rider power to uses it.

Trinity best feat against Ohma was sending him flying and that's all. Ohma clearly weren't set on killing his younger self, much less than seriously fighting against someone whom he deemed unworthy of his power at that point.
Click to expand...
Here is summary of my new points.
 
I have already voiced my disagreements for Immeasurable speed; and I already brought up comparisons to Omnipresents don't grant Immeasurable and neither does traveling through time.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I have already voiced my disagreements for Immeasurable speed; and I already brought up comparisons to Omnipresents don't grant Immeasurable and neither does traveling through time.
Click to expand...
Could you elaborate more on your disagreement? If a character could physically move through time, shouldn't its implied their speed in this case?
 
Jamesthetaker said:
Could you elaborate more on your disagreement? If a character could physically move through time, shouldn't its implied their speed in this case?
Click to expand...
Moving through time is not a speed feat without elaboration.

It is called time travel.
 
sigh

It's seem like this thread is getting nowhere. At this point, i feel like nothing will changed and i'm too tired.

@Sir_Ovens could you close this thread please.
 
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