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Another Gaim Revision

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Jamesthetaker

Jamesthetaker

He/Him
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Yet another Gaim thread because the current speed rating is bonked. Mainly about the omnipresence stuff because it heavily contradict what've shown on screen and required immediate change.

Omnipresence state​

First of all, this isn't attempt to remove Omnipresence from Gaim's page. I have explained why it is a legitimate case in another thread and can be sum up as here:

The experiment that granted Kugai's power in the first place is the Ringo Lockseed test. He become one with all existence but unable to interact with physical world. Later, he attempted to created pseudo-Golden Fruit based on previous Lockseed and got stronger as a result.

Gaim is the holder of the real Golden Fruit, therefore he would get similer abilities from Kugai

Everybody known that Omnipresence is a state of being not speed so it become a problem in versus matches. Since there are many instances where Gaim doesn't shown his omnipresence on-screen. That's why it's arguable that Gaim doesn't always in that state all time, which i would agree with.

Now let think for a moment, if Gaim are truly omnipresence across reality then wouldn't that be a drawback for him rather than benefit him? For example, this excerpt describing how Kugai becoming one with the world happening. The guy was able to experiencing all scenarios at once yet unable to fully interact with any of them.

Color.
Color swallowed him
All senses: hearing, smell, touch, ... No, everything, everything is coming
It hit him like a storm, in a mess of everything and everything. It is a period of time almost forever - a moment is just a moment
Infinite colors began to take shape. He saw that it was countless scenes, at first it was just an explosion of color
With understanding, overwhelmed in feeling. He recognizes everything
What he's seeing right now - what he thinks is "the world".
Every time, every space spreading out in front of him.
Delight and Joy surround him. At this moment he has come close to omnipotence.
Losing his physical body, his wandering soul, he surpassed humans
Colors exploded again, fiercely and still
When he noticed, it was a scene of a battle
People who look like warriors are fighting. He knows the device on their belts Sengoku Driver, a system developed by a young genius.
Are those Armored Riders the same as the concept? That's not all, there are people wearing armor, masks and fighting. The device on his belt was like the Sengoku Driver, but it was a system he didn't know.

This come down to Kugai relying on a Sengoku Driver to manifest into physical world to execute his plan. Even when integrate all existence inside him, he manifested in order to defeat Ryugen, who's also ascended being like him.

The expression on Kudo Kugai's face is not as quiet as it once was. His eyes were trembling with fear of what he did not understand.
"How can you, who have melted into the world, who have become one with my consciousness, maintain such a powerful ego?
"Because I know something far more certain than your thoughts." I asserts strongly and unlocks the Lock seed.
"Budou!" I shouted with a vow to never give up.
"Transform! Lockseed into the Sengoku Driver. That's the tanden. It's the organ that generates all the energy.
"Lock on!" As if to inspire the warrior, the Sengoku Driver plays the elegant music of battle. Hero! Swing down the cutting blade. I summon the armor for the heroes to this world.
"Budou Arms! Dragon Cannon! Hahaha! Hiru The appearance of Long Xuan, clad in glittering light, frightened Kudo Kugai for a moment. He shout with all my anger to deny the fear he got.
"What can you do alone! Mitsuzane Kureshima!" A golden fruit appeared in the palm that Kugai held up. Countless cracks opened up, and the Locust Monster and the Moray Monster appeared one after another.
"I have the golden fruit in my hands! No, I am the source of evolution, the golden fruit itself! There is no way to destroy me!"
Ryugen is the only one who keeps fighting against the monster army.
"Why refuse my salvation?" "Leave yourself in the hell of struggle?"
"Rather than give up on life itself, I'll choose a future where I can continue to fight!"

So what does this mean? Gaim, or Kugai in this case, while being omnpresence cannot interact with reality normally, thus require them to manifest their form out.

Possible Immeasurable Speed​

This is the part where i would propose new level of speed to them. It is a very controversial topic so i will try to be as clear as i can:

In Gaim novel, Kugai post obtained pseudo-Golden Fruit were said to transcended time and space:

That man surely has transcended life and death.
He has been released from the shackles of fleshes, and intergrated with the three thousand realms.
He has transcended time, and transcended space----But that is also mean the man has no future at all.
If he has no future, then that's mean he possesses no concept of creation".
Lifes are something evolves, and evolution mean creation. No matter how cruel is the Helheim as a universe’s system, that one truth is still the certainty.
It’s doesn’t matter that he is someone that has transcended life and death, if he cant creates, then that is no different than “death”.
Then the man doesn’t transcended life and death, he’s simply died.
A ghost, a meaningless shadow that occasionally shows up in the world.
That man is currently fighting 5 lifes who is rejecting his idealism.

In the Tv series, Mai Takatsukasa/Woman of the Beginning is the bearer of real Golden Fruit has physically go back in time to undo the future:


While traveling through time, she somehow got lost in parallel world and unable to come back until the timeline is fixed.


This was confirmed by Sagara who've also went through time with her.


Later, Gaim has showcase this ability when he contact with Sougo Tokiwa in Zi-O series.


He even able to go to 2018 to handle Gaim Ridewatches so Sougo can defeat Another Gaim.


To sum up, Mai who also possessing the Golden Fruit can travel back in time via sheer speed, Gaim was able to do the same. He would get a Likely/Possibly Immeasurable speed based on above reason.

Limitations​

You could probably tell from the videos that there is some evidences that might debunk Immeasurable speed:
  1. The future is unchangeable no matter what Mai does. Her speech are distorted because of the attempt to undo future are failed.
  2. She has yet to mastered her ability which she end up in another world by accident and can't go back until the original timeline are corrected.
  3. Sagara claim that time traveling is too much for Golden Fruit.
Now i will explain why these restriction isn't related to Immeasurable speed:

While it's clearly stated that Mai can't change the future because time are incredibly hard to alter. Immeasurable speed was about a character moving beyond linear time and nothing indicated that they can change causality without meeting resistance. The only problem she've faced are cryptic speech and it doesn't stop her from trying again by moving through different point of time.

The second problem indicated Mai cannot travel through alternate timeline don't contradict Immeasurable speed either as that would require dimensional travel to accomplish it. Moving to adjacent world are much different from crossing the time axis.

As for third problem, i believe this have to do with Mai's usage with the Golden Fruit rather than its limitation. The last 2 videos obviously shown that Gaim can travel through time and he can talk with Sougo just fine without issues. This lead up to an explanation that Mai does not able to exploit the full potential of Golden Fruit. Given her duty to bestow it to Man of the Beginning aka Gaim, she's likely only used a portion of it.

Summary​

Mai Takatsukasa/Woman of the Beginning can travel through time via sheer speed and transcended space-time due to having Golden Fruit. The limitation placed upon her is completely unrelated to Immeasurable speed in general, therefore won't contradict it.

Gaim/Man of the Beginning can accomplished similer feats without any restriction as explained above.

Characters who affected by this are:
  • Kamen Rider Gaim last key speed section changed to: Likely/Possibly Immeasurable speed in manifested form (Comparable, if not, superior to Woman of the Beginning who can travel through time via sheer speed. Superior to Saver who are said to transcended space-time), Omnipresent otherwise (He has become one with all existence which there are infinite worlds in number)
  • Kugai/Saver will get a Possibly rating because while the fruit he get are fake, its should somewhat grant him exact power as the real one. Since he doesn't have a profile yet, Zangetsu and Ryugen will get it via fighting against him.
  • Megahex will get Immeasurable reaction and combat speed scaling to Gaim. His second key get same treatment as Gaim as he've absorbed Golden Fruit.
  • Decade Complete 21, Ohma Zi-O, Zi-O Ohma Form, possibly Grand Zi-O would scales to Gaim as their arsenal comprised of his power and abilities.
 
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Grand Zi-O should only get it via Summoning. He himself clearly isn't immeasurable. And even when summoning Gaim, he doesn't immediately blitz all his enemies. Same with Neo Decade.

I think it's more likely that Gaim can choose to be immeasurable if he wants to since it only comes into play when he wants to go through time. As such I don't think it's combat applicable.
 
Sir_Ovens said:
Grand Zi-O should only get it via Summoning. He himself clearly isn't immeasurable. And even when summoning Gaim, he doesn't immediately blitz all his enemies. Same with Neo Decade.

I think it's more likely that Gaim can choose to be immeasurable if he wants to since it only comes into play when he wants to go through time. As such I don't think it's combat applicable.
Click to expand...
I agree with Grand Zi-O and Neo Decade one.

I believe it's might be PIS for Gaim in most cases. Since i create this thread to find his default speed while manifesting, it's an understatement for him not going immeasurable against his enemy like Megahex and such.
 
I personally don't think that qualifies as Immeasurable speed "Transcending time and transcending space". The "He has no future" sounds more like Acausality Type 2. But it could grant Time Travel if he doesn't already have that.

The rest looks fine from a glance with some notes Sir Ovens laid it in mind.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I personally don't think that qualifies as Immeasurable speed "Transcending time and transcending space". The "He has no future" sounds more like Acausality Type 2. But it could grant Time Travel if he doesn't already have that.

The rest looks fine from a glance with some notes Sir Ovens laid it in mind.
Click to expand...
Transcending space-time alone obviously won't grant Immeasurable speed so i've take it as supplement evidence with traveling through time via sheer speed.
 
Decade has all of the Heisei Phase 2 Rider Cards, which includes their Final Forms
 
He can still use it as a regular transformation. People tend to forget this, but even back in 2009, Decade was capable of changing into the final forms of Heisei Riders. Its just that Complete Form is pretty busted and more favourable to Tsukasa
 
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Lonkitt said:
He can still use it as a regular transformation. People tend to forget this, but even back in 2009, Decade was capable of changing into the final forms of Heisei Riders. Its just that Complete Form is pretty busted and more favourable to Tsukasa
Click to expand...
We will decide how valid that is once we're getting through this upgrade.

Also, the picture is broken btw.
 
The hell is wrong with the site? I should be able to link photos. Ugh. Here. This video is the link to the officially released NeoDecadriver using Kiwami Arms. I don't see why this is a debate, Tsukasa's always had access to the Final Forms of other Riders
 
kay so, we know that even as their base, Tsukasa can still use the powers of their other forms. He manipulated water as Wizard Flame Style and Zukan even stated that the Neo Driver gives more powers than what the normal driver could do.

So would Decade’s base would Omnipresent while taking form of Gaim?
 
I think Neo Decade only gets powers when he uses Ridecards. As such, I'm not comfortable giving him Immeasurable speed. In fact, Man of the Beginning shouldn't be something Decade can replicate, only Oma, since Decade can only copy Rider powers while Oma has all Rider powers.
 
Sir_Ovens said:
I think Neo Decade only gets powers when he uses Ridecards. As such, I'm not comfortable giving him Immeasurable speed. In fact, Man of the Beginning shouldn't be something Decade can replicate, only Oma, since Decade can only copy Rider powers while Oma has all Rider powers.
Click to expand...
It is called Final Form Card so it would obviously give him the strongest version of respective Rider. That being said, we still need to get this revision done first.
 
Jamesthetaker said:
It is called Final Form Card so it would obviously give him the strongest version of respective Rider. That being said, we still need to get this revision done first.
Click to expand...
*Final Kamen Ride Card

Final Form Ride Cards affect the actual Rider in question. Its confusing, yeah
 
Neo Decade's things have only shown the ability of basic forms so far. Wizard Flame Style being able to use water and Agito Ground Form using Flame Saber, etc. I think Neo Decade can get Gaim Kiwami Arm's abilities only if he transforms into Gaim Kiwami specifically.
 
1. Immeasurable/Infinite speed by travelling through time by sheer speed seems weird for me if such ability can be summarised as time travel. I can at most accept "at least" a quantifiable speed, "possibly immeasurable".

2. Mai's inability to alter things can be explained by some imperfect fate manipulation (or should I say, lack of such).

3.
What Lonkitt and Sir_Ovens said seems reasonable for me to concur.
And for everything else... I remain neutral for now.
 
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