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Amitabha-Sized Touhou Revisions (Previous Thread Merging)

I am not sure. Maybe apply what has been accepted here in the meantime, but keep this thread open and wait for Promestein for a while?
 
Everything that has been accepted has already been applied to the profiles. All we can do now is wait for more input on the Sanzu River stuff.
 
Okay. Can somebody write a tally of which staff members that think what regarding that feat please?
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. Can somebody write a tally of which staff members that think what regarding that feat please?
Click to expand...
Efi disagreed with the feat, but isn't interested in touching the thread or checking out our new arguments.
Griffin agreed with it, but said that we should gather more input.

That's the current tally.
 
Did Efi disagree with the feat? All I remember was them having an issue with giving Flandre H3-A range from potentially destroying the Sanzu, they never commented on speed afaik.

DDM said I was making sense so I guess that's an agreement?

Antvasima said:
I am not sure. Maybe apply what has been accepted here in the meantime, but keep this thread open and wait for Promestein for a while?
Click to expand...
I'm fine with this. If we're taking DDM's statement as agreement, I can apply the speed feat to the relevant profiles and we can keep this open for about a week or two to see if anybody takes issue with it. Though, even then, people are more than capable of making their own thread if they have issues with the feat.
 
Hmm. If you explain what we need more input about, I can ask Eficiente and Medeus to help out again, as a safety precaution.
 
DDM already looked at the Sanzu River feat and said I was making sense, though. And Efi already said he isn't touching this thread anymore. Everybody who has been willing or able to give input has already given their input, I feel. Still, I guess posting the feat again wouldn't do any harm.

FujiwaraYesMokou said:
Sanzu River Crossing: Eternal Suffering Edition

I will get this feat approved no matter what it takes. The fact that we already have infinite speed is irrelevant >:V

Let me briefly set up the context for the feat again.

In WBaWC, the protagonists cross the Sanzu River to get to Hell, something that’s consistent across all routes.

The river is confirmed to be infinite in its default state a few times; In PoFV, Komachi says the width of the river is infinite for living humans. In BAiJR, it’s confirmed that the river is infinite for those who don’t pay the necessary toll, and its width is only shortened for those who pay. And more recently, in 17.5, the river is stated to have an infinite water supply on several occasions, obviously confirming an infinite volume (and thus an infinite size).

We can also just apply common sense here; the entire point of the river’s existence is that it is meant to prevent people from just casually crossing over to the afterlife whenever they want. It having a finite, and thus easily crossable width, would be extremely counterintuitive to its intended purpose.

The one counter argument that gets repeated every time this feat comes up is that Komachi adjusts the river, therefore crossing it is impossible to quantify as a speed feat.

First off, it doesn’t matter if the size of a thing varies when it comes to calculating the speed it would take to cross it; so long as that thing had a definitive, known size at the time the feat was performed, there is no reason to use the feat. And again, as proven above, the Sanzu River has an infinite width that must be crossed in its default state. So now we just need to prove that Komachi didn’t alter the width at the time the feat was performed.

In both Marisa and Youmu’s WBaWC routes, they explicitly mention not using Komachi’s services. Which, of course, means that they crossed the river’s default length since Komachi didn’t manipulate it. It is quite literally a secondary plot point that Komachi didn’t **** with the river; to say she did would be to say the literal plot of the game is wrong, and I shouldn’t have to explain why that’s ridiculous.

We can also apply common sense here again; part of the plot of WBaWC is that beast spirits have broken out of Hell and are entering Gensokyo to attempt to take it over. So naturally, keeping the beast spirits out of Gensokyo would be a high priority. Komachi shortening the river in this scenario would mean she is outright assisting a faction that is attempting to take over Gensokyo, something that is so wildly out of character that this shouldn’t even be an option.

In case this wasn’t OOC enough for her, one of the fundamental parts of her character is that she’s extremely lazy and continually puts off her duties to ferry souls across the river (here’s just one example). She doesn’t even mess with the river when it’s her job to do so; assuming that she would do so just for the hell of it is extremely contradictory to her character.

TL;DR: The Sanzu River has an infinite width when it isn’t being ****** with. The protagonists crossed the river when it wasn’t being manipulated, which means they crossed an infinite distance in finite time. We know Komachi didn’t **** with the river because 1. The game outright says she didn’t, and 2. It would be insanely OOC for her to do so in this instance. Which means the river maintained its infinite width while the protagonists crossed it.
Click to expand...
 
I basically said I had no counter arguments against it; then again, I don't really know the verse. But it does appear to be explained well and crossing something infinite in size without having some ability to "Manipulate something to now be infinite anymore" would still be Infinite speed. Unless someone else has more to add details about that, then Infinite speed sounds fairly concrete. Also Prom isn't like extremely inactive, she does show up from time to time. Though I don't think she appears to be particularly interested in this thread mostly because she has a tendency to get tired of repeated topics.
 
Well, I tried to cover all the necessary context for the feat, so I would certainly hope I didn't miss anything. And as Ant said, we're likely going to keep this thread open for the sake of waiting for any other potential counter arguments. If Eficiente declines to say anything here, then I guess that would mean we have enough permission to apply the feat?
 
I suppose that applying what has been accepted here, and then keeping this thread open for at least a week afterwards, may be best then.

Please tell us when youare done with your edits, and later remind me when I should close this thread.
 
Granted we do have infinite speed, and it seems like we do based on preamble of the evidence posted above, I don't really care to join in another Touhou thread, if its all the same to you, nor argue with things that are effectively meaningless due to aforementioned existing ratings.
 
It was just meant to be an additional supporting feat, since a lot of people think infinite speed Touhou is a massive outlier. Having as many valid feats as possible listed on the profiles is important, and I think we at least have an obligation to index all feats consistent with a given tier. Still, can't blame you for not wanting to get involved.

Antvasima said:
I suppose that applying what has been accepted here, and then keeping this thread open for at least a week afterwards, may be best then.

Please tell us when youare done with your edits, and later remind me when I should close this thread.
Click to expand...
Works for me. I can get started in a bit.
 
FujiwaraYesMokou said:
Sure thing. It's just this one feat.

Sanzu River Crossing: Eternal Suffering Edition

I will get this feat approved no matter what it takes. The fact that we already have infinite speed is irrelevant >:V

Let me briefly set up the context for the feat again.

In WBaWC, the protagonists cross the Sanzu River to get to Hell, something that’s consistent across all routes.

The river is confirmed to be infinite in its default state a few times; In PoFV, Komachi says the width of the river is infinite for living humans. In BAiJR, it’s confirmed that the river is infinite for those who don’t pay the necessary toll, and its width is only shortened for those who pay. And more recently, in 17.5, the river is stated to have an infinite water supply on several occasions, obviously confirming an infinite volume (and thus an infinite size).

We can also just apply common sense here; the entire point of the river’s existence is that it is meant to prevent people from just casually crossing over to the afterlife whenever they want. It having a finite, and thus easily crossable width, would be extremely counterintuitive to its intended purpose.

The one counter argument that gets repeated every time this feat comes up is that Komachi adjusts the river, therefore crossing it is impossible to quantify as a speed feat.

First off, it doesn’t matter if the size of a thing varies when it comes to calculating the speed it would take to cross it; so long as that thing had a definitive, known size at the time the feat was performed, there is no reason to use the feat. And again, as proven above, the Sanzu River has an infinite width that must be crossed in its default state. So now we just need to prove that Komachi didn’t alter the width at the time the feat was performed.

In both Marisa and Youmu’s WBaWC routes, they explicitly mention not using Komachi’s services. Which, of course, means that they crossed the river’s default length since Komachi didn’t manipulate it. It is quite literally a secondary plot point that Komachi didn’t **** with the river; to say she did would be to say the literal plot of the game is wrong, and I shouldn’t have to explain why that’s ridiculous.

We can also apply common sense here again; part of the plot of WBaWC is that beast spirits have broken out of Hell and are entering Gensokyo to attempt to take it over. So naturally, keeping the beast spirits out of Gensokyo would be a high priority. Komachi shortening the river in this scenario would mean she is outright assisting a faction that is attempting to take over Gensokyo, something that is so wildly out of character that this shouldn’t even be an option.

In case this wasn’t OOC enough for her, one of the fundamental parts of her character is that she’s extremely lazy and continually puts off her duties to ferry souls across the river (here’s just one example). She doesn’t even mess with the river when it’s her job to do so; assuming that she would do so just for the hell of it is extremely contradictory to her character.

TL;DR: The Sanzu River has an infinite width when it isn’t being ****** with. The protagonists crossed the river when it wasn’t being manipulated, which means they crossed an infinite distance in finite time. We know Komachi didn’t **** with the river because 1. The game outright says she didn’t, and 2. It would be insanely OOC for her to do so in this instance. Which means the river maintained its infinite width while the protagonists crossed it.

This is all we're waiting on, as everything else has been discussed and applied appropriately. I am fine with either waiting for Promestein or getting other staff involved, whichever works.
Click to expand...
Alrighty, fine.

In context, are the people crossing it here A. mortal/alive B. refusing to pay the Ferrymen's fee C. humans? I presume they are alive, but I could never follow the gaudy language of anime anyhow, so I'd like specific confirmation from someone. I wouldn't call this its "default state"- seems to me the default state is a relatively normal river that becomes infinite to block out would-be invaders.

If this "Komachi" genuinely modified the river (which I note was not linked here), then I would absolutely agree- it cannot be used to calculate or discern speed. I can't speak on this completely as full context is not provided here. Still, the mention of it makes me want to hear from Prom or Saikou before approving.

Beast spirits aren't humans, are they? Therefore the river's width is not infinite to them to begin with. Nor are they implicitly the living.

For now I disagree with the supporting feat, and would like an opposing side to provide context to bits not covered here, such as this Komachi's actions.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
In context, are the people crossing it here A. mortal/alive B. refusing to pay the Ferrymen's fee C. humans? I presume they are alive, but I could never follow the gaudy language of anime anyhow, so I'd like specific confirmation from someone. I wouldn't call this its "default state"- seems to me the default state is a relatively normal river that becomes infinite to block out would-be invaders.
Click to expand...
Yes. All 3 characters who cross the river are living humans. If the river was constantly passively shifting to adjust to whoever is crossing it, then the 'infinite supply of water' statements wouldn't make much sense; It wouldn't have an infinite supply, its supply would be reliant on whoever is crossing it.

Mr._Bambu said:
If this "Komachi" genuinely modified the river (which I note was not linked here), then I would absolutely agree- it cannot be used to calculate or discern speed. I can't speak on this completely as full context is not provided here. Still, the mention of it makes me want to hear from Prom or Saikou before approving.
Click to expand...
I mean, part of the point here is that she didn't. She's mentioned offhandedly twice in the game where the feat occurs, both times in the context of "wow I wish she had adjusted the river, that would've made this a lot easier". I can't show you evidence of a feat that never took place.

Mr._Bambu said:
Beast spirits aren't humans, are they? Therefore the river's width is not infinite to them to begin with. Nor are they implicitly the living.
Click to expand...
No, the feat is for the living humans who crossed it (Reimu, Marisa, and Youmu). The beast spirit thing was just to show why Komachi shortening the width of the river would be really ******* stupid, since the beast spirits are attempting a hostile takeover of Gensokyo.

Mr._Bambu said:
For now I disagree with the supporting feat, and would like an opposing side to provide context to bits not covered here, such as this Komachi's actions.
Click to expand...
Well, that's why we're leaving the thread open.

The opposition had almost 3 weeks to speak up, and numerous other staff were invited here to give their opinions. I can't just make these people speak up, and if they choose not to say anything, that's on them. And hell, if they do decide to suddenly take issue with the feat well after this thread has closed, then there's absolutely nothing preventing them from making a new thread on it.
 
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Antvasima said:
I suppose that applying what has been accepted here, and then keeping this thread open for at least a week afterwards, may be best then.

Please tell us when youare done with your edits, and later remind me when I should close this thread.
Click to expand...
Well, I am done with the edits, but as per Bambu's wishes we should absolutely keep this thread open for the sake of giving the opposition a chance to present their own points.

At least a week is fine, but I'd say 2-3 weeks is reasonable since that's about how long this thread has already been open.

That being said, is it alright if I or other supporters continue posting new CRTs while this is semi-active? Within reason, of course; No going over the 3 CRT limit like last time.
 
I think that most of our staff are sick and tired of all the neverending Touhou threads, and that it will be very hard to get their continued interest to help out with them for a while unless the revisions are very important.
 
Well, I'm sorry if it seems like Touhou threads are being spammed, but this series is extremely outdated on this wiki. The verse has not undergone significant revisions since 2019, I recall, and even excluding the many new bits of canon that were not indexed here during that 2 year gap, most of the revisions prior to 2019 overlooked many significant parts of the lore. I have no less than 14 separate WIP CRTs saved in Google docs, to say nothing of what other users are working on.

I never intend for threads like this to come off as spam or whatever; I really do just want this verse to be as well-researched and indexed as it deserves to be, and I and other supporters have our work cut out for ourselves in that regard.
 
Well, it is not anywhere near the only verse in the wiki that our staff have to focus on, and virtually all of them, including myself, are technically completely uninterested in it, and it seems to be a minor rather unpopular verse, so you cannot remotely expect us to handle 20+ revisions for it within the near future, so as such I would very strongly recommend that you all focus on the absolutely most crucial ones only before our staff's patience completely wears out.

Also, you are personally permanently topic-banned from this verse after this thread is over and done with and you have reached an agreement with Malomtek. If you ignore it we will likely have to ban you in the regular manner.
 
I wouldn't say a verse with over 150 pages is 'minor' by this wiki's standards. Touhou may not be a massively popular series, but its far from a totally barren wasteland of a fandom where only a handful of people care about it; Just because staff personally aren't interested in it doesn't mean it isn't popular or whatever. And I know damn well that we can't rush things, which is why I asked for permission to allow other users to make their own threads while this one is in a state of limbo. I don't care how long it takes. So long as whatever staff choose to evaluate the threads are willing and able to do so, that's fine by me. We can chip away at those 20+ revisions one at a time if need be. Also kinda absurd to say the number of CRTs is a bad thing when I see at least one to two new threads for prominent shonen verses a day.

As for the second part... I really do want to try and remain polite here, but what the hell? First of all, you gave me permission to comment here in spite of the topic ban so I could help answer some staff concerns. Secondly, the deal with Malomtek was that we would work out our differences in private and then be unbanned afterwards, not do that and then get permabanned anyways, so what the hell changed? Thirdly, Mal has repeatedly ignored my PMs (and I'm assuming yours as well), so I quite literally cannot 'work things out' with him.

You do not understand just how infuriating it is to put at least dozens of hours of work into a verse I love, doing everything I can to improve its image here and bring it up to the standards of far more popular verses like Bleach or Naruto despite constant overwhelming real-life stress, only to have you go "yeah sorry nobody gives a shit, plus you were rude to a guy who constantly harassed you for months on end and he won't respond to your DMs so I guess we gotta permaban you".

If you hate the verse this much, just nuke it from the wiki. The pages are awful in so many ways, and if supporters are quite literally being barred from improving those pages, then why keep them at all?
 
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While I get where you're coming from and understand your frustration Mokou, there was definitely a hell of a lot of better ways you could have gone about saying that. As far as I read, there was no immediate threat of banning being thrown at you. Ant just reminded you of the situation you're in. I agree though that if Mal is being unresponsive, then that's an issue in itself.

I do want to agree with the main sentiment though. The touhou pages were in dire need of ground-up revising. This isn't just revision spam for the sake of being a nuisance.

The profiles were so bad at one point that characters had wall level stats after downgrades, no other feats to scale to, and I'm pretty sure deleting some pages was even on the table at one point like a year ago.

I get that the verse isn't wiki popular, but it was very bare bones on here and the series itself has a 20+ year history of games, novels, manga, and databooks. So needless to say, there is a lot of catching up to do as far as indexing goes. I'm sure many of us can be as patient as needed. There's really no immediate rush for the threads, and we'd rather not force someone to look either. Staff can take however much time they need!
 
Yeah, I don't get Ant's logic either. First he let's you talk here despite your topic ban to answer some concerns from the staff, and then he suddenly says you aren't allowed to until you and Mal resolve your own little conflict, even though Mal has yet to respond to you or Ant's PMs despite being online a few times. I'm not saying that Malomtek is being intentionally malicious or anything despite my frustrations with him (or Ant for that matter), but I don't get why Mokou is the only one that gets the banhammer while he gets off scot-free.
 
OverlordDonnelly said:
While I get where you're coming from and understand your frustration Mokou, there was definitely a hell of a lot of better ways you could have gone about saying that. As far as I read, there was no immediate threat of banning being thrown at you. Ant just reminded you of the situation you're in. I agree though that if Mal is being unresponsive, then that's an issue in itself.
Click to expand...
"Also, you are personally permanently topic-banned from this verse after this thread is over and done with and you have reached an agreement with Malomtek". That's a pretty clear way of saying 'you are getting banned and there is nothing you can do about it'. No explanation of why I'm getting banned, or why this only applies to me, which makes this whole thing doubly frustrating.

I will admit I got heated though, and I'm sorry about that.
 
Antvasima said:
Also, you are personally permanently topic-banned from this verse after this thread is over and done with and you have reached an agreement with Malomtek.
Click to expand...
Ant, did you mean that Mokou is topic-banned until she reaches an agreement with Mal? Or are you saying she's topic banned regardless of any agreement they end up coming to?

I think we're all worried about how you meant to say that. I'm hoping this can all simmer down fast and was just a case of miscommunication.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, it is not anywhere near the only verse in the wiki that our staff have to focus on, and virtually all of them, including myself, are technically completely uninterested in it, and it seems to be a minor rather unpopular verse, so you cannot remotely expect us to handle 20+ revisions for it within the near future, so as such I would very strongly recommend that you all focus on the absolutely most crucial ones only before our staff's patience completely wears out.

Also, you are personally permanently topic-banned from this verse after this thread is over and done with and you have reached an agreement with Malomtek. If you ignore it we will likely have to ban you in the regular manner.
Click to expand...
If you don't mind me asking, has there been any conversation or consideration of finding or adding new potential admins/moderators to help with the workload? Certainly if virtually all staff are uninterested in handling verses that are seen as smaller such as Touhou, perhaps finding new moderators who are interested in handling smaller verses could help? Could help lighten the load on your shoulders and prevent the mods that are annoyed from having to see Touhou every couple of weeks to a month or so.

I have no idea how this type of stuff works, if applications are required or something or other, but I think it could help a lot with the issues that are being run into here.

Also no disrespect but the verse isn't quite unpopular, it's a franchise that's spanned for about 20 years and has massively influenced internet culture in a lot of ways, it's just a little obscure in the West comparatively to other parts of the world.

I feel the fact that a verse is nearly 3-5 years behind on canon content and has very... questionable work on the profiles definitely calls for assistance in revising them, it essentially requires almost completely ground up work to fix.
 
OverlordDonnelly said:
Ant, did you mean that Mokou is topic-banned until she reaches an agreement with Mal? Or are you saying she's topic banned regardless of any agreement they end up coming to?

I think we're all worried about how you meant to say that. I'm hoping this can all simmer down fast and was just a case of miscommunication.
Click to expand...
I meant that our previous agreement is still in effect, and I only made an exception in this thread because Fujiwara had already been very active in it.

I was the one who prevented Malomtek and Fujiwara from getting banned from this community in the first place, but only due to the requirement that they should try to work out an agreement on their own by acting like adults.

Also, I sent a PM to Malomtek earlier, and he replied that he would respond soon to Fujiwara.
 
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Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
If you don't mind me asking, has there been any conversation or consideration of finding or adding new potential admins/moderators to help with the workload? Certainly if virtually all staff are uninterested in handling verses that are seen as smaller such as Touhou, perhaps finding new moderators who are interested in handling smaller verses could help? Could help lighten the load on your shoulders and prevent the mods that are annoyed from having to see Touhou every couple of weeks to a month or so.

I have no idea how this type of stuff works, if applications are required or something or other, but I think it could help a lot with the issues that are being run into here.

Also no disrespect but the verse isn't quite unpopular, it's a franchise that's spanned for about 20 years and has massively influenced internet culture in a lot of ways, it's just a little obscure in the West comparatively to other parts of the world.

I feel the fact that a verse is nearly 3-5 years behind on canon content and has very... questionable work on the profiles definitely calls for assistance in revising them, it essentially requires almost completely ground up work to fix.
Click to expand...
We have to be very picky with trying to only promote staff members that are genuinely well qualified, and we have quite a lot of them already, around 65 in total I think.

However, demanding that they should evaluate 20+ revision threads about a verse that they are uninterested in does not seem realistic at all, so you should focus on releasing the most crucial/important revisions first.
 
Okay, thank you, that's much more reasonable. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

Still, I do not believe it is reasonable or fair to try and impose hard limits on Touhou threads (beyond the limits that apply to all verses, that is); As several other members have pointed out, the verse is essentially in need of a total overhaul. The lack of interest, frustrating though it may be at times, is not really a problem, as I am willing to wait however long I need to in order to get threads evaluated.

There are at least two things I can try and do to improve the situation on my end. I plan on taking a break from making threads after this one due to real life issues, and from now on I will try to focus on writing CRTs in such a way that they explain basic concepts in the verse in greater detail, hopefully allowing for people who aren't knowledgeable in Touhou to understand them and give a greater degree of input.

Thank you for sending a PM to Mal again, I truly do appreciate it. I would at least like to know what would happen if Mal continually refuses to respond, even if that is just a worst case scenario.
 
No problem at all.

Making the threads easier to understand seems like a good idea, but you should still focus on the most important ones first.

If Malomtek refuses to collaborate for several weeks, I suppose that your topic ban can probably be lifted, Fujiwara.
 
Alright then. All of this sounds reasonable; I don't have total control over what other supporters do, so I can't guarantee they'll only post the most important threads, but I will let them know that doing so is preferable. In the meantime, I can try and rework my other threads to be more easily understandable.
 
Okay. That seems good to me. It will make it much easier for uninitiated staff members to help out.
 
Antvasima said:
We have to be very picky with trying to only promote staff members that are genuinely well qualified, and we have quite a lot of them already, around 65 in total I think.

However, demanding that they should evaluate 20+ revision threads about a verse that they are uninterested in does not seem realistic at all, so you should focus on releasing the most crucial/important revisions first.
Click to expand...
Well, to my knowledge Fujiwara is planning the most crucial/important revisions first. Stuff such as a major verse-wide speed buff, restructuring of uni scaling, and adding major character ability justifications and scaling seemed important, and I'm sure the rest she does first will be similarly important. Not requesting however many revision threads there are to be evaluated at once or anything, no verse gets that type of treatment.

I just think its a little upsetting that out of nearly 65 admins, almost none of them have any interest interacting with this verse or the CRTs...
 
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