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I agree with the downgrade FRA.
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I was referring to an anti-feat for the idea that the Field was protecting the whole ship, not that the ship crashing in was an anti-feat in itself. There’s just no evidence to suggest that the Field is protecting the whole ship- speaking of, could you provide some sort of Scan or something for these ‘open holes’? I don’t recall them, and you very well could be referring to a Window or just the hole Rook had made earlier. Looking at images of the ship also does not show me any ‘open holes’.rook ship crashing in is still not an anti-feat, since the extra-dimensional field had nothing to do with it (it's for the big bang, not random intruder number 3), also, the idea that the field protected the whole ship (which makes more sense considering that the contumelias wouldn't be protected otherwise) is also supported by the fact that there were literally open holes, including the one rook used to look at ben's death
You do realize that my point just proves the energy released doesn’t have universal AP?you said that the ship can tank the big bang, but it can't. It's not the ship that's supposed to tank the big bang but the "extra-dimensional barrier" inside of it. The celestialsapien DNA destroyed the barrier, not the ship, so while the ship is certainly not low 2-C, it literally add nothing to the debate
I was referring to an anti-feat for the idea that the Field was protecting the whole ship, not that the ship crashing in was an anti-feat in itself. There’s just no evidence to suggest that the Field is protecting the whole ship- speaking of, could you provide some sort of Scan or something for these ‘open holes’? I don’t recall them, and you very well could be referring to a Window or just the hole Rook had made earlier. Looking at images of the ship also does not show me any ‘open holes’.
Ok... then why the barrier? It's supposed to protect the contumelians, but according to your logic, the ship does that, or the big bang wasn't a danger to begin with. So what's the point? Also you're saying that the energy released shouldn't have universal AP... A big bang, which explicitly and was repeatedly said to create an universe doesn't have the energy of an universe? Finally, "it protects us from the release of energy" isn't exactly the most complex thing to understand, big explosion hurt, barrier protectsYou do realize that my point just proves the energy released doesn’t have universal AP?
You’re saying the ship can’t tank the Big Bang but the barrier can. Using this way of thinking, how does this make sense? Essentially you’re implying that the ship would be wiped out but the barrier would be fine. This is clearly not the case because it never happened.
The Big Bang may be lethal, but not in the you may think.
Should be around 40 seconds. Again, the idea that the ship itself tanked it makes no sense at all. It defies the whole concept of the extra dimensional field (the contumelias need it to protect them from the energy), put a litteral big bang to large building level (it still created an universe you know). Shows energy somehow not going through an open hole because reasons, etc...
Those do appear to be Windows, not actual open holes that one can reach through. The stuff coming through them is just light from the literal Big Bang. If you look at the image about 2 seconds earlier, you can see them, and they appear to have some sort of Glass in front of them.
Agreeing and disagreeing votes
Fair, didn't think you could see them here. The other issues are still here tho
Alternatively, use this stupid image I made, lol. Sorry for how big it is + multi post, I don’t know how to shrink it and thought it best to post again after the time it took to make it. The question mark’s there cause I didn’t know whether that was some form of Weapon or not, due to the shape, but the rest look like what he’s looking through.
So are you saying that the ship alone does or does not protect the inhabitants from the release of energy?I believe my point stands that there’s no evidence showing that the Shield also functions Outside the ship, then. It’s never displayed, never stated, and the shield itself is only brought up once, unless someone is willing to show otherwise.
I am saying that there is nothing saying that the Shield functions on the outside. If that means it’s the Ship Alone doing the tanking, then yes, It does. And I believe the Ship doing the tanking is what Zamasu’s trying to say is wrong with the scenario.So are you saying that the ship alone does or does not protect the inhabitants from the release of energy?
Yes. He quite obviously pierced it. I’ll go over why 4D is the wrong term to use.Claim: The device's energy release is a Space-Time Expansion that is Low 2-C. The Extra-Dimensional field is Low 2-C for significantly affecting the expanding 4-D space. Alien X DNA breached the Extra-Dimensional field which the device's released space-time energy could not.
Yes that’s the intention. Tho there are several contradictory factors: time traveling to a timeless void using time travel, time still affecting Maltruant in a time loop, Ben and the others moving and Maltruant describing Ben as “a second too late”.
- We know that the setting takes place in a timeless void, established by statements and the inability to use time manipulation.
Firstly, it doesn’t create space, as shown above, and doesn’t create a dimension of time.
- In order to create a universe and its time, the energy released would need to be 4-D, meeting the Low 2-C requirement.
Since I already explained why this is not low 2-C, I’ll move one to why the force of the Big Bang is not universal. Maybe it’d still be universal absorption for Feedback, but that doesn’t mean the Big Bang itself is universal.
- If Feeback can pull in the released energy to a hand-sized ball, undoing the expansion of the Universal Space-time, then the Extra-Dimensional field would have a similar effect of stopping and limiting the 4-D expansion to its field boundary. This also falls under the Low 2-C requirement.
The barrier can protect them from nuclear radiations. I don’t know if you missed it but there was a whole ass discussion about “tanking” creation, as shown here. There are other dangerous factors other than big explosions. By “energy” the Contumelia could mean “dense thermal energy, as Agnaa said.Ok... then why the barrier? It's supposed to protect the contumelians, but according to your logic, the ship does that, or the big bang wasn't a danger to begin with. So what's the point? Also you're saying that the energy released shouldn't have universal AP... A big bang, which explicitly and was repeatedly said to create an universe doesn't have the energy of an universe? Finally, "it protects us from the release of energy" isn't exactly the most complex thing to understand, big explosion hurt, barrier protects
I’m afraid that as a discussion about Ben 10, not everyone here’s going to understand what COIE is. Especially me. Please explain examples you provide that reference other verses, or otherwise use examples most people can understand and dis/agree with. I’d appreciate it.Ben and Rook going to before the space-time continuum was made and then having space-time get made is no different than when the heroes and villains in DC were doing the same in COIE.
In Crisis on Infinite Earths, DC heroes and villains traveled back in time to before Universal Space-Time was made. They had a fight there in that timeless void before the universe and time was remade.I’m afraid that as a discussion about Ben 10, not everyone here’s going to understand what COIE is. Especially me. Please explain examples you provide that reference other verses, or otherwise use examples most people can understand and dis/agree with. I’d appreciate it.
Make arguments. Show scans. Give evidence. Go into detail. Explain why my points are wrong. Stop making these out of context and dismissive analogies and debate. Put in effort. I shouldn’t have to repeat myself for someone who’s not gonna bother debating. If you’re not gonna push the debate, please stop making claims without giving evidence or countering my claims, stop wasting my time, get other staff members, and leave. Because it’s crystal clear to me that you have almost 0 interest in debating me, the main contender. Me, your opponent. Me! The person who’s putting in all this effort only for you to either copy and past the same thing or make a response in a few sentences.Ben and Rook going to before the space-time continuum was made and then having space-time get made is no different than when the heroes and villains in DC were doing the same in COIE.
I’d like to note this wasn’t an argument against you or anything, just my attempts to counter Fires claim on how the Shield worked..There’s just no evidence to suggest that the Field is protecting the whole ship-
If it's not protecting the whole ship then most of the ship would get destroyed, which seems like an asinine way to set up a protective barrier.
Before we're able to get to that section of the scaling chain, we're currently discussing whether or not a Space-time expansion was made in a timeless void or not in the first place.So from what I'm gathering this thread is about if Alien X can really effect a space-time continuum or if it just effects the matter located within the universe? I honestly don't know if I'm super qualified to give input on a rather major revision like this. I can give it a look though, so what are the most up to date arguments?
Hop did yes.Hop agreed I think, and Firestorm and Greenshifter seem to still disagree.
These points make the most sense to me here.This feat has inconsistencies at every level (time-wise, space-wise, explosion-wise, and ship-wise);
And lastly, the first thing I pointed out in this thread is that you don't often need durability to tank something being created, and that even when you do, you're tanking some side-effect of its creation (such as its temperature) rather than the actual creation itself, which can be far easier to tank than any involved "creation energy".
- Supporting it being Low 2-C, the realm is called a timeless void before the creation of the universe, and one character's time powers don't work, yet other characters used time travel to reach that place, all the events that we see taking place in that realm are part of a time loop, and ordinary humans and aliens (ordinary enough in that they should be subject to space and time) are able to function with zero fanfare or explanation.
- Despite space also presumably not being there, there are locations, there are barriers with things on one side and not another. Every second of screentime is an anti-feat.
- Even if we assume that time and space don't exist so that it would be a Low 2-C feat, a random spattering of Ben's aliens are able to temporarily hold it back, despite 99% of them having no reason to be anywhere near Low 2-C. And when it's released, it's merely a small beam of energy that causes one dude to slowly collapse into a wall-level-ish explosion. This supposedly 4-D object just acts like a 3-D ball of energy, there is no indication or mention of its existence across time.
- Also, the ship that should've protected them from such a Low 2-C feat gets a hole torn in it by a random spaceship crashing into it.
This is not to say that creation < destruction or something like that, because creation = destruction is to say that the energy it takes for a character to create something should be roughly equal to the energy it takes to destroy that thing. It's relevant when a creator performs a creation feat and gets a tier off of it, or when they create something and then use that same energy source to perform destructive feats. It doesn't mean that a character floating in space should get 5-B dura for the Earth being created 1m below them.
But hell, maybe there is a grey area or some wiggle room for verses that are only slightly contradictory, but Ben 10 seems to contradict it in as many ways as possible.“No!” said Job. “I would prefer to live in a universe that was perfect and just!”
“I CREATED SUCH A UNIVERSE,” said God. “IN THAT UNIVERSE, THERE IS NO SPACE, FOR SPACE TAKES THE FORM OF SEPARATION FROM THINGS YOU DESIRE. THERE IS NO TIME, FOR TIME MEANS CHANGE AND DECAY, YET THERE MUST BE NO CHANGE FROM ITS MAXIMALLY BLISSFUL STATE. THE BEINGS WHO INHABIT THIS UNIVERSE ARE WITHOUT BODIES, AND DO NOT HUNGER OR THIRST OR LABOR OR LUST. THEY SIT UPON GOLDEN THRONES AND CONTEMPLATE THE PERFECTION OF ALL THINGS.
YET I ALSO CREATED YOUR UNIVERSE, THAT YOU MIGHT LIVE. TELL ME, JOB, IF I UNCREATED YOUR WORLD, WOULD YOU BE HAPPIER? OR WOULD YOU BE DEAD, WHILE FAR AWAY IN A DIFFERENT UNIVERSE INCORPOREAL BEINGS SAT ON THEIR GOLDEN THRONES REGARDLESS?”
@Firestorm808 what about this point?And lastly, the first thing I pointed out in this thread is that you don't often need durability to tank something being created, and that even when you do, you're tanking some side-effect of its creation (such as its temperature) rather than the actual creation itself, which can be far easier to tank than any involved "creation energy".
This clip was provided by Firestorm earlier, there's a field protecting the ship said to "protect them from the upcoming release of energy", which Firestorm presumes is Low 2-C. I'd argue that it isn't for a variety of points that I brought up.@Firestorm808 what about this point?
Actually how would the Annihilaargh even create the matter of the universe if the matter clearly exists in the timeline Ben and Rook come from, heck Ben and Rook exists?So how exactly is the Annihilargh supposed to create the prime timeline if the prime timeline already exists?
I also wanted to bring up contradictions from the Big Bang page with the Tiering System Page.Hold on, that sounds like a weird rule. How does tanking a Big Bang that has legit Low 2-C showings not a Tier 2 durability feat?