Alien X 3-A Downgrade

[Firestorm808]

I can agree that characters traveling to a place/setting prior to the formation of time and doing things there is not really a debunk. It's fiction and it happens. The points about time powers not working and Paradox not being able to go there due to lack of time also support that time did not exist.

Although Agnaa has a point about the side effects not being necessarily Low 2-C and the inconsistency where random aliens temporarily suppressed the energy.

The changing aliens appearing was just a callback for the series finale. The start and end of the sequence was still Feedback. It was Feedback that stopped the timeline formation in the first place.

 

[Greenshifter]

the inconsistency where random aliens temporarily suppressed the energy.

You could barely argue Humungousaur did, everyone else got steamrolled and the Omnitrix just switched that fast. And whether it’s 3-A or low 2-C doesn’t make it much better on the outlier department.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

A contradiction like that is normally something where DontTalkDT or Ultima's input might be valuable. But do not wish to stress them.

But anyway, a Big Bang is like sort of an explosion just not a traditional one. It's a Quantum explosion to be specific that effects all time, space, and matter. Though, a lot of fictions just treat it as a big explosion that only effects all physical object rather than "A Cosmic Inflation in Time and Space". I can agree that causing a Low 2-C creation won't scale to physical stats outside of universal energy systems, but a Tier 2 birth of the universe feat could scale to durability. Especially if it's a destruction and recreation. So what Arceus proposed kind of threw me off.

But I need to sleep for now, so I may discuss this later.

 

[Arceus0x]

I never proposed anything i just copy pasted info from the wiki as i remembered seeing a big bang page that was 3-A

 

[Agnaa]

Actually how would the Annihilaargh even create the matter of the universe if the matter clearly exists in the timeline Ben and Rook come from, heck Ben and Rook exists?

Circular causation is a thing. A causes B causes A can be a valid series of causation.

Hold on, that sounds like a weird rule. How does tanking a Big Bang that has legit Low 2-C showings not a Tier 2 durability feat?

The rule explains it; it's a non-physical event. It's not an explosion, it's an expansion of space-time. For one it's hard to imagine how a character even tanks time starting, so the temporal part of it is chucked out. And for the spatial expansion part, the only "tanking" that'd be there would be your atoms re-coalescing against the expansion of space (so, instead of your body getting spread apart across the universe, it stays roughly the same size), but that would involve individual atoms accelerating themselves at precise speeds, going far past the speed of light. Due to that breaking physics (with the bonus of being something fiction rarely acknowledges), we can't really tier that.

I can agree that characters traveling to a place/setting prior to the formation of time and doing things there is not really a debunk. It's fiction and it happens.

I cannot conceive of how to respond to this. You just say "that's not a debunk", and then something that isn't a debunk; "it's fiction lol". There is nothing to respond to there, it's a dismissal based on nothing.

The points about time powers not working and Paradox not being able to go there due to lack of time also support that time did not exist.

It is completely mind-boggling to me how you can say "This abstract being that's beyond time can't go there because there's no time, which supports time not existing", while simultaneously saying "These random humans and aliens that are subject to time can go there, but that doesn't contradict it because LOL FICTION." You are only accepting supporting evidence, and ignoring contrary evidence, despite them being nearly identical (being A can go there, being B can't go there), and despite the contrary evidence being far more striking.

I also wanted to bring up contradictions from the Big Bang page with the Tiering System Page.

The important part is it being a physical explosion, such a thing will naturally generate space and time as a chain reaction. It's tough to word but there is a distinction there; 3-A creates space and time because when the universe expands space is created, and time naturally passes. Low 2-C creates all of space and time instantly, without a chain reaction or the natural flow of physical laws.

The changing aliens appearing was just a callback for the series finale. The start and end of the sequence was still Feedback. It was Feedback that stopped the timeline formation in the first place.

It doesn't matter why they put that in there, it's a part of the series. It doesn't matter if the start or the end were Feedback, they still had temporary hands in it. If it was truly Low 2-C (energy beyond infinite energy) they would have lost control immediately.

You could barely argue Humungousaur did, everyone else got steamrolled and the Omnitrix just switched that fast.

It would need to never touch them for a Low 2-C energy concentration to not escape.

And whether it’s 3-A or low 2-C doesn’t make it much better on the outlier department.

Perhaps it's tier 5, then?

But anyway, a Big Bang is like sort of an explosion just not a traditional one. It's a Quantum explosion to be specific that effects all time, space, and matter.

This wording seems very wrong to me. What the hell is a quantum explosion? How does it affect all time, space, and matter?

 

[Bernkastelll]

Hold on, that sounds like a weird rule. How does tanking a Big Bang that has legit Low 2-C showings not a Tier 2 durability feat?

Because the distance of the event is also needed to it, we are constantly affected by Supernovas, but we arent High 4-C, at least not me, so, while Big Bang is Low 2-C (3-A in some verses), depending of the distance that the character was, the result wont be the same

 

[Greenshifter]

It is completely mind-boggling to me how you can say "This abstract being that's beyond time can't go there because there's no time, which supports time not existing", while simultaneously saying "These random humans and aliens that are subject to time can go there, but that doesn't contradict it because LOL FICTION." You are only accepting supporting evidence, and ignoring contrary evidence, despite them being nearly identical (being A can go there, being B can't go there), and despite the contrary evidence being far more striking.

Agnaa, there is context to how everyone got there, I’m sure Zamasu is aware of it too but didn’t bother to bring it up. Maltruant specifically needed a time beast to go to the “beginning of time”, nothing else’s time travel could access it.

Because the distance of the event is also needed to it, we are constantly affected by Supernovas, but we arent High 4-C, at least not me, so, while Big Bang is Low 2-C (3-A in some verses), depending of the distance that the character was, the result wont be the same

Irrelevant for tier 2, surface area applied to low 2-C is low 2-C, at worst High 3-A.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, reading the Big Bang page, it contradicts the Tiering System. We should confer with the other mods if something needs to be revised between those two pages.

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality

Does the following page need to be rewritten to fit with our current tiering system standards?

Big Bang

To quote from Wikipedia: "The Big Bang is the cosmological model of the universe, originally conceived to describe its origins, that is best supported by all cosmological observations. The essential idea is that the universe has expanded from a primordial hot and dense initial condition at some...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, Agnaa makes sense to me as well above.

 

[Agnaa]

Agnaa, there is context to how everyone got there, I’m sure Zamasu is aware of it too but didn’t bother to bring it up. Maltruant specifically needed a time beast to go to the “beginning of time”, nothing else’s time travel could access it.

I don't care if weak time travel can't get there while strong time travel can, the fact that any time travel can get there renders the evidence that "This character's time travel can't get there" pointless.

 

[Greenshifter]

I don't care if weak time travel can't get there while strong time travel can, the fact that any time travel can get there renders the evidence that "This character's time travel can't get there" pointless.

It’s a literal plot point that you need specific means to access said timeless void and now you’re using that as an argument to say it’s not a timeless void? Heck the time beast literally ripped a hole in the barrier separating the “beginning of time” and the timestream so it’s not regular time travel at all.

 

[Agnaa]

It’s a literal plot point that you need specific means to access said timeless void and now you’re using that as an argument to say it’s not a timeless void? Heck the time beast literally ripped a hole in the barrier separating the “beginning of time” and the timestream so it’s not regular time travel at all.

This chain of conversation just seems to be going in circles now... I don't have any more to say about time travel access that I haven't already said.

 

[Firestorm808]

Anyway, Agnaa makes sense to me as well above.

Sorry. Can you specify which topics you are referring to?

 

[Antvasima]

So just to put this out there, are we saying Ben 10 is one of the rare verses that doesn’t have creation = destruction on the same level?

No. Like I said earlier, creation isn't inherently destruction, and any destruction associated with creating something doesn't have to be on the same level as creating the thing. If the ship would remain intact through the big bang, yet gets damaged by a ship flying into it, the only solutions are "That creation is associated with minimal destructive energy", "The ship crashed with Low 2-C force", or pis/outlier.

rook ship crashing in is still not an anti-feat, since the extra-dimensional field had nothing to do with it (it's for the big bang, not random intruder number 3)

I find it hard to believe that something that can protect from the big bang's energy (especially when phrased in those terms and not as, say, some haxxy anti-spatio-temporal expansion device) couldn't protect from a random ship's energy.

There’s just no evidence to suggest that the Field is protecting the whole ship-

If it's not protecting the whole ship then most of the ship would get destroyed, which seems like an asinine way to set up a protective barrier.

Ben and Rook going to before the space-time continuum was made and then having space-time get made is no different than when the heroes and villains in DC were doing the same in COIE.

I know nothing about DC, but maybe I'd want to downgrade that too if it's this bad.

What does Agnaa think btw?

This feat has inconsistencies at every level (time-wise, space-wise, explosion-wise, and ship-wise);

• Supporting it being Low 2-C, the realm is called a timeless void before the creation of the universe, and one character's time powers don't work, yet other characters used time travel to reach that place, all the events that we see taking place in that realm are part of a time loop, and ordinary humans and aliens (ordinary enough in that they should be subject to space and time) are able to function with zero fanfare or explanation.
• Despite space also presumably not being there, there are locations, there are barriers with things on one side and not another. Every second of screentime is an anti-feat.
• Even if we assume that time and space don't exist so that it would be a Low 2-C feat, a random spattering of Ben's aliens are able to temporarily hold it back, despite 99% of them having no reason to be anywhere near Low 2-C. And when it's released, it's merely a small beam of energy that causes one dude to slowly collapse into a wall-level-ish explosion. This supposedly 4-D object just acts like a 3-D ball of energy, there is no indication or mention of its existence across time.
• Also, the ship that should've protected them from such a Low 2-C feat gets a hole torn in it by a random spaceship crashing into it.

And lastly, the first thing I pointed out in this thread is that you don't often need durability to tank something being created, and that even when you do, you're tanking some side-effect of its creation (such as its temperature) rather than the actual creation itself, which can be far easier to tank than any involved "creation energy".

This is not to say that creation < destruction or something like that, because creation = destruction is to say that the energy it takes for a character to create something should be roughly equal to the energy it takes to destroy that thing. It's relevant when a creator performs a creation feat and gets a tier off of it, or when they create something and then use that same energy source to perform destructive feats. It doesn't mean that a character floating in space should get 5-B dura for the Earth being created 1m below them.

As such you need to be careful analyzing these sorts of feats. There's a very good reason why tanking a Low 2-C big bang (without additional supporting context) is explicitly not a tierable durability feat. I may not be the best person to analyze it since my evaluations for verses tier 2 and up have historically gone against the experts, but Ultima seems to at least find the situation here weird even if he's not super interested in giving a full-on evaluation.

Mainly this.

 

[Daddybrawl]

I would like to point out, about the bit of the Aliens suddenly appearing when Ben starts holding the Big Bang: That’s not the Aliens physically holding the Big Bang. They aren’t really There. The sudden display of all these aliens is supposed to reference what Ben calls the ‘Failsafe’, a loose ability of the Omnitrix where it considers every possible alien, and picks the best one for the job. They can’t ‘Lose Control’ because the Alien isn’t actually in use.

I know it doesn’t exactly counter your points, Agnaa, but I thought I’d mention it for the sake of clarity.

 

[Greenshifter]

If the ship would remain intact through the big bang, yet gets damaged by a ship flying into it, the only solutions are "That creation is associated with minimal destructive energy", "The ship crashed with Low 2-C force", or pis/outlier.

Prove the barrier was active when the ships crashed into it.

I know nothing about DC, but maybe I'd want to downgrade that too if it's this bad.

DC has the most explicit multiversal+ feat in fiction, you’d quite literally need to downgrade multiversal+ itself.

all the events that we see taking place in that realm are part of a time loop

One that affects Professor Paradox, who exists outside of time as extensively discussed here. Part of the time loop are the following: the name of the Plumbers, the time war which involves Ben finding the Omnitrix and the multiverse getting erased, the omniverse almost getting destroyed by Eon, a future version of Ben from an alternate timeline and basically everything in between Paradox spreading Maltruant’s pieces across the universe/multiverse, him getting a cult thousands of years back, him being restored and going to the future to steal the Annihilaargh and the dwarf star core. Basically the entire show.

Even if we assume that time and space don't exist so that it would be a Low 2-C feat, a random spattering of Ben's aliens are able to temporarily hold it back, despite 99% of them having no reason to be anywhere near Low 2-C. And when it's released, it's merely a small beam of energy that causes one dude to slowly collapse into a wall-level-ish explosion. This supposedly 4-D object just acts like a 3-D ball of energy, there is no indication or mention of its existence across time.

1) Feedback can control the size of what he sends out, 2) it’s an implosion (at first) with space-time hax it seems, 3) heck why argue Feedback sent out more energy than necessary to kill Maltruant if it would be that dangerous, 4) I’ve already said how this Annihilaargh could be 3-A (or lower apparently), the barrier feat is for the other Annihilaargh.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Agnaa, there is context to how everyone got there, I’m sure Zamasu is aware of it too but didn’t bother to bring it up. Maltruant specifically needed a time beast to go to the “beginning of time”, nothing else’s time travel could access it.

I don't care if weak time travel can't get there while strong time travel can, the fact that any time travel can get there renders the evidence that "This character's time travel can't get there" pointless.

This seems to handwavey.
What do you call a "technique" or "travel" which sends you back to predation of time?
I don't know nor can I come up with a nomenclature for such a concept. And I doubt Ben 10 Creators could.

You using tag of "time travel" as an excuse to claim that time still exists before time because characters used to travel to a pre-time location, seems produce more serious contradiction into cosmology than solve "anti feats" for Ship.

In short I think we are judging book by its cover and failing to interpret what the actual intent and events are telling us.

Unless we wanna approve presence of 2nd temporal dimension above the normal one which allows this "stronger time travel", and encompasses the normal timeline, I doubt you wanna dismiss the existance of a timeless void predating time.
Because you cannot have your cake and eat it too.
In short timeless void is better option than some unexplainable existance of time before time, which seems to be your suggestion.

And I disagree with downgrade.

 

[Agnaa]

I would like to point out, about the bit of the Aliens suddenly appearing when Ben starts holding the Big Bang: That’s not the Aliens physically holding the Big Bang. They aren’t really There. The sudden display of all these aliens is supposed to reference what Ben calls the ‘Failsafe’, a loose ability of the Omnitrix where it considers every possible alien, and picks the best one for the job. They can’t ‘Lose Control’ because the Alien isn’t actually in use.

Huh, it really didn't seem like that since the ball kept crackling, and I'm reaaaaally suspicious that you call it a reference rather than an actual use of the "failsafe". So could you clarify your wording? Is it a reference, or is it actually an instance of that?

I know it doesn’t exactly counter your points, Agnaa, but I thought I’d mention it for the sake of clarity.

It would counter one of my points, actually.

Prove the barrier was active when the ships crashed into it.

I'll need to rely on people actually familiar with Ben 10 for that, if anyone else wants to chime in. Is there any indication either way?

DC has the most explicit multiversal+ feat in fiction, you’d quite literally need to downgrade multiversal+ itself.

This has been such a dumb chain of argument.

"DC does this!"

"Okay, well idk anything about DC, but if it has the same issue downgrade it too."

"Actually, DC has another good feat"

Dude I could not give any fewer ***** about DC.

One that affects Professor Paradox, who exists outside of time as extensively discussed here.

From a scan through that thread, the only source for him "existing outside of time" is a statement of "The experiment that releases the creature also unsticks me in time" which other users explicitly disagreed with using. The other stuff is just timestop resistance, age manip resistance, immortality, and time travel.

Importantly, there doesn't appear to be anything that would prevent Professor Paradox from being affected by a time loop. "He exists outside of time" is a really wack representation of that thread's conclusions.

Part of the time loop are the following...

As far as I can tell these are just your inferences, all we get in the show is that Maltruent is stuck in a time loop, I didn't see an indication that everything in the show is. We know that he's doomed to fail every time, but do we know that every event in the multiverse is predestined to turn out the same way in every single detail?

Also, I find it pretty unnerving that you said "spreading Maltruant’s pieces across the universe/multiverse", you should only need to say either "universe" or "multiverse". On top of that, it feels a bit gish gallopy to include completely unrelated statements, that don't help your case and merely pad out your paragraph to make you seem like you have more useful examples than you do. "The time loop includes this name" "The time loop includes the omniverse almost getting destroyed", "The time loop includes events thousands of years ago", "The time loop includes events in the future".

Four points on the Feedback energy blast

It sucks that the youtube clip ends here, can anyone whose watched the show tell me what happens immediately after? Does that red ball of energy remain or what? If it's not there, does it just disappear? Does Feedback absorb it permanently?

This seems to handwavey.
What do you call a "technique" or "travel" which sends you back to predation of time?
I don't know nor can I come up with a nomenclature for such a concept. And I doubt Ben 10 Creators could.

I doubt you wanna dismiss the existance of a timeless void predating time.

I wouldn't say it'd "predate" but more "precause", but I in general don't think you can physically bring normal space-time abiding humans to before space or time existed, you'd need to do some abstract fuckery.

In short I think we are judging book by its cover and failing to interpret what the actual intent and events are telling us.

Media intends things (such as writing all-powerful supreme beings) and fails due to mounting contradictions or failing to mention certain qualifying factors all the time. We don't just ignore those contradictions to get a higher tier, we try to find the consistent answer wherever it lands.

 

[Daddybrawl]

I would like to point out, about the bit of the Aliens suddenly appearing when Ben starts holding the Big Bang: That’s not the Aliens physically holding the Big Bang. They aren’t really There. The sudden display of all these aliens is supposed to reference what Ben calls the ‘Failsafe’, a loose ability of the Omnitrix where it considers every possible alien, and picks the best one for the job. They can’t ‘Lose Control’ because the Alien isn’t actually in use.

Huh, it really didn't seem like that since the ball kept crackling, and I'm reaaaaally suspicious that you call it a reference rather than an actual use of the "failsafe". So could you clarify your wording? Is it a reference, or is it actually an instance of that?

It’s a use of the failsafe, yes. I do believe Ben even mentions it later in the episode. I apologize for the confusion.

 

[Daddybrawl]

Four points on the Feedback energy blast

It sucks that the youtube clip ends here, can anyone whose watched the show tell me what happens immediately after? Does that red ball of energy remain or what? If it's not there, does it just disappear? Does Feedback absorb it permanently?

As for this, I do believe that it disappears. Feedback doesn’t really absorb things permanently, last I checked- he usually has to release the energy somewhere. Apologies for the foreign language, but it shouldn’t be important.

Sorry for the multi post, I didn’t notice this on first read, so only responded to the Failsafe question lol

 

[Greenshifter]

As for this, I do believe that it disappears. Feedback doesn’t really absorb things permanently, last I checked- he usually has to release the energy somewhere

It’s pretty unclear, but he could still control it’s color apparently. Anyways if he just detransforms then the Omnitrix can store the energy or whatever.

 

[Daddybrawl]

It’s pretty unclear, but he could still control it’s color apparently. Anyways if he just detransforms then the Omnitrix can store the energy or whatever.

Have we ever seen that happen? It’s been under my understanding that Feedback needs to release that stuff, he can’t just hold it in (for whatever reason, lol)

 

[Greenshifter]

From a scan through that thread, the only source for him "existing outside of time" is a statement of "The experiment that releases the creature also unsticks me in time" which other users explicitly disagreed with using. The other stuff is just timestop resistance, age manip resistance, immortality, and time travel.

Importantly, there doesn't appear to be anything that would prevent Professor Paradox from being affected by a time loop. "He exists outside of time" is a really wack representation of that thread's conclusions.

He explicitly states he exists outside of time as well, him existing outside of time is still applied on his page after that thread and immunity got changed to resistance because fiction allows people to time hax timeless beings. Similarly to how fiction allows time loops to work in a timeless void. If you disagree with Paradox existing outside of time, make a CRT. But since we treat him as existing outside of time, a time loop has as much business affecting him as it does working in a timeless void.

As far as I can tell these are just your inferences, all we get in the show is that Maltruent is stuck in a time loop, I didn't see an indication that everything in the show is. We know that he's doomed to fail every time, but do we know that every event in the multiverse is predestined to turn out the same way in every single detail?

Professor Paradox: Well done, Benjamin. I knew you wouldn't fail.

Ben Tennyson: I knew it, too.

Rook Blonko: You did?

Ben Tennyson: See, Maltruant is stuck in a time loop.

Professor Paradox: And he is doomed to failure, over and over. Every time he pulls himself together, he returns to the beginning of time and is defeated by Ben. I gather up the pieces of Maltruant and scatter them across the universe, and the loop begins again.

Ben Tennyson: The only person who doesn't know about the time loop is Maltruant himself. Oh, and... you, I... guess.

Professor Paradox: Pardon us for the intrusion. We'll be on our way. Now, help me pick up the rest of Maltruant. We have a lot to do before I take you home.

This means that everyone who tries to kill Ben or Maltruant and thus hinder them squaring off is fated to fail (hmm maybe I can pull fate hax out of this?). Which due to the nature of Ben 10 of people that try to kill Ben doesn’t narrow it down much from “all of it”. Also people don’t have to act the exact same way (although a time loop implies that they do) but they would still be affected by the loop for it to work. Now other stuff such as Ben inventing the name of the Plumbers and finding the Omnitrix is obviously part of the loop, because they directly tie to how he got in the situation where he’d be able to time travel and what not due to being a plumber/superhero.

Also, I find it pretty unnerving that you said "spreading Maltruant’s pieces across the universe/multiverse", you should only need to say either "universe" or "multiverse". On top of that, it feels a bit gish gallopy to include completely unrelated statements, that don't help your case and merely pad out your paragraph to make you seem like you have more useful examples than you do. "The time loop includes this name" "The time loop includes the omniverse almost getting destroyed", "The time loop includes events thousands of years ago", "The time loop includes events in the future".

I wish it were that simple but Ben 10 has different names for things that sometimes mean the same thing (under certain interpretations) and sometimes something else. Timelines get called universes and dimensions, even though a different kind of dimensions are the containers of a different kind of universe, which contains the timestream/cross-time. With there being multiple universes inside the multiverse, not to be confused with the multiverse which is the timestream… I could go on. But I think a map of Ben 10 cosmology gets the point across better (ignore the infinite stuff, that’s for later ), although the position of the Contumelia ship isn’t really where I would put it when it is creating a universe. Needless to say, you need to have a high understanding of the cosmology to even understand what a character is referencing at any given time. But anyways the timestream is what I was referencing in this particular case, considering Paradox hid one piece in the Mad Ben timeline (with Maltruant’s pieces somehow not branching I guess), either that or it was more convenient to get it from an alternate timeline for some reason.

we try to find the consistent answer wherever it lands.

Good luck with that for Ben 10, took me like 1 and a half years kek.

Have we ever seen that happen? It’s been under my understanding that Feedback needs to release that stuff, he can’t just hold it in (for whatever reason, lol)

Would you argue this for every absorber or only Feedback? Anyways for now I’d just argue that Feedback gets energy from the Omnitrix upon transformation and he never needs to expend all of it before turning back.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Once again, I think we are getting very off topic and derailing

Let’s try keeping the trajectory of this discussion about Alien X and his downgrade

 

[Greenshifter]

Once again, I think we are getting very off topic and derailing

Let’s try keeping the trajectory of this discussion about Alien X and his downgrade

What do you think Agnaa and I were discussing?

 

[My_area]

god..this thread has expanded so much over various topics which not always are relavent to CRT in hand, anyways since I happen to be really busy, I suppose I cant really elaborate as to why I disagree with the downgrade(unfortunate timings) and CRT wouldn't wait for me to be free, so you guys can just remove my vote since I never really elaborated on why I disagree aside from saying I disagree(because of being busy). Just gonna watch this thread for now

Just wanted to clear it up, in case someone was waiting for me to elaborate the reasons of disagreement with the downgrade.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody explain the arguments so far in an easy to understand manner please? Listing who agree with what would also be appreciated.

 

[Tots_Real]

Supporting it being Low 2-C, the realm is called a timeless void before the creation of the universe, and one character's time powers don't work, yet other characters used time travel to reach that place, all the events that we see taking place in that realm are part of a time loop, and ordinary humans and aliens (ordinary enough in that they should be subject to space and time) are able to function with zero fanfare or explanation/

Didn't they need some kind of egg megufine to get there? Also Ben Ten has had timeless voids before and you can function inside them.

 

[Daddybrawl]

Didn't they need some kind of egg megufine to get there? Also Ben Ten has had timeless voids before and you can function inside them.

Agnaa has already spoken about the Egg- read above for further details. And can you provide more substance on these Timeless Voids, because I don’t recall a timeless void before this one.

 

[Tots_Real]

Agnaa has already spoken about the c- read above for further details. And can you provide more substance on these Timeless Voids, because I don’t recall a timeless void before this one.

Paradox made one for Ben in UA when heading to the forge of creation. One doesn't age, need to sleep or need to eat but one can still function fine in it. Also it was also a white void like the beginning of time.

 

[Greenshifter]

Paradox made one for Ben in UA when heading to the forge of creation. One doesn't age, need to sleep or need to eat but one can still function fine in it. Also it was also a white void like the beginning of time.

Chrono Randomization barrier, meh I wouldn’t classify that as a timeless void. Paradox also just arranged for life-support (which was meant for inside the Forge iirc).

 

[Agnaa]

I think this stuff is starting to get a bit too in the weeds of the show's details for me to be much help, since arguments seem to now be hinging on a bunch of other stuff that's happened in other episodes.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that you made good evaluations and helped out a lot in any case.

 

[Teezar]

I agree with firestorm and midtop.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Dunno why people are agreeing with debunked points.

 

[Teezar]

Mention the debunked points.

 

[Greenshifter]

Dunno why people are agreeing with debunked points.

Who even debunked Midtop?

Heck I could say the same about the OP considering I argued against it before the thread got even made, forcing Zamasu to back up his arguments which are not present in the OP. So at the very least the OP is incomplete.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write an easy to understand explanations text regarding the discussion so far please?

 

[Purgy]

bump

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The downgrade still needs to go through