Alien X 3-A Downgrade

[Firestorm808]

Can somebody write an easy to understand explanations text regarding the discussion so far please?

The events in the show:

1. Ben and Rook travel to before their universe and timeline were created.
2. This place is a timeless void, established by being before the timeline was created, other statements, and the inability to use time manipulation.
3. Maltruant is attempting to use his own Annihilargh to create a universe and its time in his image.
4. The Contumelia created an extra-dimensional field to protect them from the device's release of energy. They consider it impossible to breach the field.
5. Alien X DNA is able to breach the extra-dimensional field.

Abridged Low 2-C Argument:

• The Annihilargh's energy release is Low 2-C as per our Tiering System of explicitly creating a universe and its time.
• The Annihilargh cannot be 3-A because as per our Tiering System, 3-A specifically says that it "does not involve the destruction and/or creation of space-time."
• The Annihilargh cannot be High 3-A because, as per our Tiering System, High 3-A does not account for any higher dimensions or time.
• The Contulemia are familiar with and deal with the universe and time creating energies numerous times. With this prior knowledge, they created the Extra-Dimensional field to protect themselves from such energies.
  • They would not create an Extra-Dimensional field below Low 2-C durability and say that it was impossible to breach if they deal with Low 2-C energies all the time and if Low 2-C energy can breach the field. Therefore, anything that is at least Low 2-C or above would be able to breach the Extra-Dimensional Field.
• Because Alien X DNA was able to breach the "impossible to breach" Extra-Dimensional field created by beings who deal with Low 2-C energy all the time, Alien X should be At least Low 2-C.

 

[Teezar]

The downgrade still needs to go through

Lol, you guys haven't dropped a legit point why alien X should be 3A.

 

[Sus]

what's the conclusion here?
how many agreements and disagreements are there

 

[PrinceofPein]

Lol, you guys haven't dropped a legit point why alien X should be 3A.

Then you should read the arguments again

 

[PrinceofPein]

what's the conclusion here?
how many agreements and disagreements are there

Like 30+ agreements with multiple staffs while 3 disagreed (1 staff)

 

[Delta333]

Bruh

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Like 30+ agreements with multiple staffs while 3 disagreed (1 staff)

To be fair, the thread got like 30 agrees before the counter arguments were actually presented. I myself am neutral.

 

[Sus]

I'm neutral too
both 3A and L2C ratings have their arguments, i think we need to choose one

 

[Firestorm808]

Once the other mods are informed of the current summaries for both sides of the discussion, they can reach their final verdicts.

 

[DemonicDude]

To make things easier I'm posting Greenshifter and Midtop's arguments here again who disagrees with downgrade so people can easily read them and reach their desired conclusion.
Midtop arguments: 1, 2
Greenshifter arguments: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

 

[Teezar]

Then you should read the arguments again

I read everything and the 3A debates are too weak and seems as if people just wanna make alien X 3A lmao.

Like 30+ agreements with multiple staffs while 3 disagreed (1 staff)

They should layout their disagreement again lmao instead of saying Agree FRA without stating what their agreeing to.

 

[Antvasima]

The events in the show:

1. Ben and Rook travel to before their universe and timeline were created.
2. This place is a timeless void, established by being before the timeline was created, other statements, and the inability to use time manipulation.
3. Maltruant is attempting to use his own Annihilargh to create a universe and its time in his image.
4. The Contumelia created an extra-dimensional field to protect them from the device's release of energy. They consider it impossible to breach the field.
5. Alien X DNA is able to breach the extra-dimensional field.

Abridged Low 2-C Argument:

• The Annihilargh's energy release is Low 2-C as per our Tiering System of explicitly creating a universe and its time.
• The Annihilargh cannot be 3-A because as per our Tiering System, 3-A specifically says that it "does not involve the destruction and/or creation of space-time."
• The Annihilargh cannot be High 3-A because, as per our Tiering System, High 3-A does not account for any higher dimensions or time.
• The Contulemia are familiar with and deal with the universe and time creating energies numerous times. With this prior knowledge, they created the Extra-Dimensional field to protect themselves from such energies.
  • They would not create an Extra-Dimensional field below Low 2-C durability and say that it was impossible to breach if they deal with Low 2-C energies all the time and if Low 2-C energy can breach the field. Therefore, anything that is at least Low 2-C or above would be able to breach the Extra-Dimensional Field.
• Because Alien X DNA was able to breach the "impossible to breach" Extra-Dimensional field created by beings who deal with Low 2-C energy all the time, Alien X should be At least Low 2-C.

Thank you. This makes sense to me.

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody else willing to explain the points of the other side, so I can ask staff members for evaluations afterwards?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I read everything and the 3A debates are too weak and seems as if people just wanna make alien X 3A lmao.

That’s the other way around with people having desperately small points to try keeping Low 2-C on the table.

They should layout their disagreement again lmao instead of saying Agree FRA without stating what their agreeing to.

FRA spam is a thing here or did you not know this? We all (at least I) know what we’re disagreeing to. Zamasu and others have laid out reasons for the 3-A downgrade several times here, and the vast majority agrees with them.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

To make things easier I'm posting Greenshifter and Midtop's arguments here again who disagrees with downgrade so people can easily read them and reach their desired conclusion.
Midtop arguments: 1, 2
Greenshifter arguments: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Mid tops points here have absolutely nothing to do with the downgrade at all.

His arguments against Eficiente were talking about the derailing discussion on the Contemelia being 5-D.

 

[Teezar]

That’s the other way around with people having desperately small points to try keeping Low 2-C on the table.

Firestorm and midtop already debunked the 3A arguing, ****** arguing for 3A are just arguing for arguing sake lmao when they're point were already debunked.

FRA spam is a thing here or did you not know this? We all (at least I) know what we’re disagreeing to. Zamasu and others have laid out reasons for the 3-A downgrade several times here, and the vast majority agrees with them.

I know and like Fluffy said above members were just saying FRA before the counter argument came into this thread and now I would like to see what FRA their agreeing to.
You can't just come ajd say FRA in a CRT like this without stating what you're agreeing with.
They laid it out and it was debunked.

Those vast majority just come in and say FRA and leave without stating what they agree with and most agreed before the counter side even came into this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody else willing to explain the points of the other side, so I can ask staff members for evaluations afterwards?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Firestorm and midtop already debunked the 3A arguing, ****** arguing for 3A are just arguing for arguing sake lmao when they're point were already debunked.

They weren’t debunked. At all.

The shit about the whole “surviving Low 2-C energy” meant absolutely nothing when we had an entire discussion on how tanking creation isn’t a durability feat (and how the Annilaargh ship has an anti feat for its durability on top of that)

Not one person here answered my question on how DNA piercing something counts as an AP feat (because since when has DNA ever amounted to that here?)

Zamasu reiterated points several times on how the timeline was still in tact when Ben and Rook entered it.

The downgrade wasn’t debunked.

 

[Firestorm808]

Not one person here answered my question on how DNA piercing something counts as an AP feat (because since when has DNA ever amounted to that here?)

When attached to the Omnitrix, Skurd could use the various alien DNA within them to grow replicas of the body parts of an alien.

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody else willing to explain the points of the other side, so I can ask staff members for evaluations afterwards?

Again...

 

[Midtop]

The shit about the whole “surviving Low 2-C energy” meant absolutely nothing when we had an entire discussion on how tanking creation isn’t a durability feat (and how the Annilaargh ship has an anti feat for its durability on top of that)

I've already proved it is, according to your words not mine. You said "Taking the energy used for creation, and applying it into a destructive action, like a punch or an energy blast, is one thing. But if your simply creating x, then there’s nothing harmful. The released energy is not being used to harm or destroy anything, it’s being released to create what it’s creating. So there’s no destructive force being applied." First off, there's an extremely visible blast lmfao, take 2 seconds and watch the clip we're talking about and secondly, I and Shifter have already proven there is harm being done from the release of energy. So this universal+ release of energy is being done into a destructive action, will harm people, is an energy blast, etc. Fif you just miss the part as well where Ben, and Skurd literally thought they were about to die from it (They didn't know the omnitrix had a failsafe), the contumelia needing barrier to "protect" themselves and people aboard the ship (to protect something means to keep safe from harm) and when Feedback shot the same release of energy at Maltruant it literally blew him up and killed him?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Is somebody else willing to explain the points of the other side, so I can ask staff members for evaluations afterwards?

I will.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I've already proved it is, according to your words not mine.

Uh, let's kindly not make things up shall we? I never once said that.

You said "Taking the energy used for creation, and applying it into a destructive action, like a punch or an energy blast, is one thing. But if your simply creating x, then there’s nothing harmful. The released energy is not being used to harm or destroy anything, it’s being released to create what it’s creating. So there’s no destructive force being applied." First off, there's an extremely visible blast lmfao, take 2 seconds and watch the clip we're talking about

Is the blast an attack? Yes or no.

and secondly, I and Shifter have already proven there is harm being done from the release of energy. So this universal+ release of energy is being done into a destructive action, will harm people, is an energy blast, etc.

Harming targets =/= the full release of energy all at once is universal attack potency. Agnaa already went into much bigger details about this earlier on the previous page as well.

Fif you just miss the part as well where Ben, and Skurd literally thought they were about to die from it (They didn't know the omnitrix had a failsafe), the contumelia needing barrier to "protect" themselves and people aboard the ship (to protect something means to keep safe from harm) and when Feedback shot the same release of energy at Maltruant it literally blew him up and killed him?

See above. Killing them doesnt mean it's universe level.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

When attached to the Omnitrix, Skurd could use the various alien DNA within them to grow replicas of the body parts of an alien.

That still doesnt answer my question on how DNA counts as attack potency instead of the more reasonable result that Skurd needed Celestialsapien DNA as a special component in order to effect the barrier.

 

[Greenshifter]

Skurd uses AX’s DNA to give Chromastone a sword to cut through a barrier. It’d be the same thing as if AX himself turned his hand into a sword and did it himself. Only this way Ben doesn’t have the risk of mistransforming.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Skurd uses AX’s DNA to give Chromastone a sword to cut through a barrier. It’d be the same thing as if AX himself turned his hand into a sword and did it himself. Only this way Ben doesn’t have the risk of mistransforming.

This is different context than what was said above.

Does Skurd only make a replica of x body part or object with an aliens DNA or does he actually take the actual aliens body part to do that?

 

[Greenshifter]

This is different context than what was said above.

Does Skurd only make a replica of x body part or object with an aliens DNA or does he actually take the actual aliens body part to do that?

Skurd does the same thing the Omnitrix does when transforming Ben into an alien, but only applied to himself. There is no taking the “actual alien’s body part” cause all they exist as before transforming is a stream of DNA in either the Omnitrix or the codon stream.

 

[Teezar]

The shit about the whole “surviving Low 2-C energy” meant absolutely nothing when we had an entire discussion on how tanking creation isn’t a durability feat

Big bang being creation doesn't mean tanking it's space-time explosion or whatever isn't a feat lol. Anyways midtop already clarified and debunked that above.

Not one person here answered my question on how DNA piercing something counts as an AP feat (because since when has DNA ever amounted to that here?)

I don't know what you're talking about but Alien X could tear through a barrier stated to be impossible to breach plus the barrier could contain the annihilargh which is a device capable of space-time creation.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Big bang being creation doesn't mean tanking it's space-time explosion or whatever isn't a feat lol. Anyways midtop already clarified and debunked that above.

And as I said, it’s not a durability feat and Midtop debunked nothing. Go back to page 5. Again, Agnaa debunked him and went into large detail on why it’s not a durability feat without very strong evidence.

I don't know what you're talking about but Alien X could tear through a barrier stated to be impossible to breach plus the barrier could contain the annihilargh which is a device capable of space-time creation.

See above. For both points actually.

Celestialsapien DNA being needed still isn’t properly explained on why that’s even an AP feat, and the creation feat isn’t durability as said before several times.

 

[Greenshifter]

isn’t properly explained on why that’s even an AP feat

Cutting through a forcefield is AP unless stated otherwise.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Cutting through a forcefield is AP unless stated otherwise.

That is AP yes, but needing an aliens specific DNA type is what I’m saying isn’t AP. Or isn’t being explained why it’s AP for that Alien.

In other words, it’s AP for Skurd for breaking the shield physically. What I don’t understand is how that’s AP for Alien X.

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody else willing to explain the points of the other side, so I can ask staff members for evaluations afterwards?

I will.

It might be best to wait for this, so we can get anywhere here.

 

[Teezar]

And as I said, it’s not a durability feat and Midtop debunked nothing. Go back to page 5. Again, Agnaa debunked him and went into large detail on why

Agnaa points made no sense especially when he stated moving In a place were doesn't exist is an anti feat or something like that.

 

[Teezar]

Celestialsapien DNA being needed still isn’t properly explained on why that’s even an AP feat, and the creation feat isn’t durability as said before several times.

You tanking an energy of space-time that can cause creation is durability,lmao.
The celestialsepian DNA is needed to breach it cause it's Ben 10 most powerful alien lol.
And it's an AP feat cause the barrier is stated to he impossible to breach as it could shield and contain the anniliharg.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Agnaa points made no sense especially when he stated moving In a place were doesn't exist is an anti feat or something like that.

Thats not a debunk.

You tanking an energy of space-time that can cause creation is durability,lmao.

It isn't. See above. Debunk it or drop it.

The celestialsepian DNA is needed to breach it cause it's Ben 10 most powerful alien lol.

Okay? DNA isn't energy or strength, like, at all. It's no more than a component. Which is why im failing to see why it counts as AP for anyone besides Skurd himself for physically breeching it.

And it's an AP feat cause the barrier is stated to he impossible to breach as it could shield and contain the anniliharg.

See above. For Skurd its fine since he's actively doing the breeching. For Alien X it is not.

 

[TypeOU]

That is AP yes, but needing an aliens specific DNA type is what I’m saying isn’t AP. Or isn’t being explained why it’s AP for that Alien.

In other words, it’s AP for Skurd for breaking the shield physically. What I don’t understand is how that’s AP for Alien X.

"punching someone isn't AP because it's your fist" is essentially what you're saying. It was celestial sapien physical abilities vs barrier, the celestial sapien won

 

[Midtop]

Uh, let's kindly not make things up shall we? I never once said that.

Wdym make stuff up, I took the luxury for you and quoted YOU word for word in an earlier message so there was no confusion, I haven't made anything up at all. What I quoted IS your words and not mine. Here's the screenshot of you saying those exact words.

Is the blast an attack? Yes or no.

You visibly see a blast when it goes off in this same event, then in an earlier event, you also see a blast. So I guess, but tbh it doesn't matter if it's a blast attack or not, this is pretty irrelevant.

Harming targets =/= the full release of energy all at once is universal attack potency. Agnaa already went into much bigger details about this earlier on the previous page as well.

Honestly, I'm just dumbfounded like wtf are we even talking about here. Firstly, harming targets doesn't = tanking a full release of energy, I've never even claimed that once throughout this entire thread. That is probably the most blatant and biggest straw man fallacy I've ever seen no exaggeration. Moving past that, the release of energy is Universal+ dude, so tanking the Universal+ lvls of energy especially (Again your words NOT mine) if there is "destructive force" behind it that can kill, harm or hurt then it scales to durability. If the energy that is being released is beyond infinite, then it cannot possibly be that it is universal+ attack potency in one area and then in the next area it isn't even if that area is infinite (besides this even happens like 3 feat away so). To dumb it down for you a bit so that it's easier to understand if a high universal bomb (infinite energy) goes off then let's say a finite distance then it would be infinite area spread out throughout the area so if a person tanked that even if they were across the finite area, they would receive high universal durability. Infinity can't be divided throughout a finite area into something less than infinity.

Killing them doesnt mean it's universe level.

You know what it does mean tho (And according to your words not mine) "The released energy is not being used to harm or destroy anything, it’s being released to create what it’s creating. So there’s no destructive force being applied." it means it is being used in a destructive force/harm/hurt/kill/anything really. That was my entire point of me saying this. And the Annihilargh isn't uni dude, it's uni+. It was going to (and did) recreate an entire space-time continuum, so I don't even know the argument here, it just is uni+.

 

[Midtop]

So I'm curious now, if the creation is harming,killing and hurting people and is a destructive force, do you still think it doesn't scale? If so why?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Wdym make stuff up,

You claimed that I said you proved you can tank creation. I never said anything about that. So yes, your making stuff up.

You visibly see a blast when it goes off in this same event, then in an earlier event, you also see a blast. So I guess, but tbh it doesn't matter if it's a blast attack or not, this is pretty irrelevant.

No, it is 100% relevant here. If its not an attack, then there's no evidence of full universe level AP being applied to it. A release of energy is not enough.

Honestly, I'm just dumbfounded like wtf are we even talking about here. Firstly, harming targets doesn't = tanking a full release of energy, I've never even claimed that once throughout this entire thread. That is probably the most blatant and biggest straw man fallacy I've ever seen no exaggeration.

Then why waste my time mentioning it here?

Moving past that, the release of energy is Universal+ dude,

Stop pretending like the previous discussion never happened. Again, it blatantly isnt. Agnaa debunked this in large detail on the 2 previous pages. Read it again if you need a refresher.

so tanking the Universal+ lvls of energy especially (Again your words NOT mine) if there is "destructive force" behind it that can kill, harm or hurt then it scales to durability.

Prove the destructive force applied full universal attack potency first, and then you can start claiming this.

If the energy that is being released is beyond infinite, then it cannot possibly be that it is universal+ attack potency in one area and then in the next area it isn't even if that area is infinite (besides this even happens like 3 feat away so).

It most absolutely can. Again, the 2 previous pages goes into blatant detail on why it can.

To dumb it down for you a bit so that it's easier to understand if a high universal bomb (infinite energy) goes off then let's say a finite distance then it would be infinite area spread out throughout the area so if a person tanked that even if they were across the finite area, they would receive high universal durability. Infinity can't be divided throughout a finite area into something less than infinity.

See above.

You know what it does mean tho (And according to your words not mine) "The released energy is not being used to harm or destroy anything, it’s being released to create what it’s creating. So there’s no destructive force being applied." it means it is being used in a destructive force/harm/hurt/kill/anything really. That was my entire point of me saying this.

And again, see above.

And the Annihilargh isn't uni dude, it's uni+. It was going to (and did) recreate an entire space-time continuum, so I don't even know the argument here, it just is uni+.

Not according to Zamasu, but I'll let him handle this portion when he makes his response later.

"punching someone isn't AP because it's your fist" is essentially what you're saying. It was celestial sapien physical abilities vs barrier, the celestial sapien won

Except there wasn't a celestialsapient doing that. Skurd was doing this. A simple DNA alteration doesnt mean a whole Celestialsapien's power was breaking the barrier. It's simply Skurd physically doing it with Celestialsapien DNA. Nothing more.