Alien X 3-A Downgrade

[ZoroNotZolo]

I agree with the downgrade FRA.

 

[Daddybrawl]

rook ship crashing in is still not an anti-feat, since the extra-dimensional field had nothing to do with it (it's for the big bang, not random intruder number 3), also, the idea that the field protected the whole ship (which makes more sense considering that the contumelias wouldn't be protected otherwise) is also supported by the fact that there were literally open holes, including the one rook used to look at ben's death

I was referring to an anti-feat for the idea that the Field was protecting the whole ship, not that the ship crashing in was an anti-feat in itself. There’s just no evidence to suggest that the Field is protecting the whole ship- speaking of, could you provide some sort of Scan or something for these ‘open holes’? I don’t recall them, and you very well could be referring to a Window or just the hole Rook had made earlier. Looking at images of the ship also does not show me any ‘open holes’.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

you said that the ship can tank the big bang, but it can't. It's not the ship that's supposed to tank the big bang but the "extra-dimensional barrier" inside of it. The celestialsapien DNA destroyed the barrier, not the ship, so while the ship is certainly not low 2-C, it literally add nothing to the debate

You do realize that my point just proves the energy released doesn’t have universal AP?

You’re saying the ship can’t tank the Big Bang but the barrier can. Using this way of thinking, how does this make sense? Essentially you’re implying that the ship would be wiped out but the barrier would be fine. This is clearly not the case because it never happened.

The Big Bang may be lethal, but not in the you may think.

 

[TypeOU]

I was referring to an anti-feat for the idea that the Field was protecting the whole ship, not that the ship crashing in was an anti-feat in itself. There’s just no evidence to suggest that the Field is protecting the whole ship- speaking of, could you provide some sort of Scan or something for these ‘open holes’? I don’t recall them, and you very well could be referring to a Window or just the hole Rook had made earlier. Looking at images of the ship also does not show me any ‘open holes’.

Should be around 40 seconds. Again, the idea that the ship itself tanked it makes no sense at all. It defies the whole concept of the extra dimensional field (the contumelias need it to protect them from the energy), put a litteral big bang to large building level (it still created an universe you know). Shows energy somehow not going through an open hole because reasons, etc...

 

[TypeOU]

You do realize that my point just proves the energy released doesn’t have universal AP?

You’re saying the ship can’t tank the Big Bang but the barrier can. Using this way of thinking, how does this make sense? Essentially you’re implying that the ship would be wiped out but the barrier would be fine. This is clearly not the case because it never happened.

The Big Bang may be lethal, but not in the you may think.

Ok... then why the barrier? It's supposed to protect the contumelians, but according to your logic, the ship does that, or the big bang wasn't a danger to begin with. So what's the point? Also you're saying that the energy released shouldn't have universal AP... A big bang, which explicitly and was repeatedly said to create an universe doesn't have the energy of an universe? Finally, "it protects us from the release of energy" isn't exactly the most complex thing to understand, big explosion hurt, barrier protects

 

[Daddybrawl]

Those do appear to be Windows, not actual open holes that one can reach through. The stuff coming through them is just light from the literal Big Bang. If you look at the image about 2 seconds earlier, you can see them, and they appear to have some sort of Glass in front of them.

Should be around 40 seconds. Again, the idea that the ship itself tanked it makes no sense at all. It defies the whole concept of the extra dimensional field (the contumelias need it to protect them from the energy), put a litteral big bang to large building level (it still created an universe you know). Shows energy somehow not going through an open hole because reasons, etc...

 

[Daddybrawl]

Those do appear to be Windows, not actual open holes that one can reach through. The stuff coming through them is just light from the literal Big Bang. If you look at the image about 2 seconds earlier, you can see them, and they appear to have some sort of Glass in front of them.

Alternatively, use this stupid image I made, lol. Sorry for how big it is + multi post, I don’t know how to shrink it and thought it best to post again after the time it took to make it. The question mark’s there cause I didn’t know whether that was some form of Weapon or not, due to the shape, but the rest look like what he’s looking through.

 

[Daddybrawl]

Agreeing and disagreeing votes

Oh, you can add me to the Agreeing votes, though it doesn’t appear you’ll need to. I had agreed on the previous thread, before this one was made.

 

[TypeOU]

Alternatively, use this stupid image I made, lol. Sorry for how big it is + multi post, I don’t know how to shrink it and thought it best to post again after the time it took to make it. The question mark’s there cause I didn’t know whether that was some form of Weapon or not, due to the shape, but the rest look like what he’s looking through.

Fair, didn't think you could see them here. The other issues are still here tho

 

[Daddybrawl]

I believe my point stands that there’s no evidence showing that the Shield also functions Outside the ship, then. It’s never displayed, never stated, and the shield itself is only brought up once, unless someone is willing to show otherwise.

 

[TypeOU]

Yeah no, I don't think i have to explain why a big bang being building level is ridiculous and common sense would need you to find other more realistic answers

 

[Firestorm808]

I believe my point stands that there’s no evidence showing that the Shield also functions Outside the ship, then. It’s never displayed, never stated, and the shield itself is only brought up once, unless someone is willing to show otherwise.

So are you saying that the ship alone does or does not protect the inhabitants from the release of energy?

 

[Livinmeme]

The building tanked the big bang, is far simplier that doing mental gymnastics to explain that

 

[Daddybrawl]

So are you saying that the ship alone does or does not protect the inhabitants from the release of energy?

I am saying that there is nothing saying that the Shield functions on the outside. If that means it’s the Ship Alone doing the tanking, then yes, It does. And I believe the Ship doing the tanking is what Zamasu’s trying to say is wrong with the scenario.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Let me go over these point by point so you can understand what I’m saying. Because apparently you haven’t read through my arguments

Claim: The device's energy release is a Space-Time Expansion that is Low 2-C. The Extra-Dimensional field is Low 2-C for significantly affecting the expanding 4-D space. Alien X DNA breached the Extra-Dimensional field which the device's released space-time energy could not.

Yes. He quite obviously pierced it. I’ll go over why 4D is the wrong term to use.

• We know that the setting takes place in a timeless void, established by statements and the inability to use time manipulation.

Yes that’s the intention. Tho there are several contradictory factors: time traveling to a timeless void using time travel, time still affecting Maltruant in a time loop, Ben and the others moving and Maltruant describing Ben as “a second too late”.
I think we can all agree that the Ben 10 writers are ass when it comes to their consistency. They can’t even keep a newly introduced concept consistent for half an episode. Anyway, let’s all pretend we agree that the beginning of time is timeless. Also keep in mind that space exists in the beginning of time if it’s called a dimension, and Ben is shown bypassing spatial boundaries to reach the beginning of time.

• In order to create a universe and its time, the energy released would need to be 4-D, meeting the Low 2-C requirement.

Firstly, it doesn’t create space, as shown above, and doesn’t create a dimension of time.
Secondly, you have no evidence it’s creating a timeline. Ben and Rook just left the timeline. So how exactly is the Annihilargh supposed to create the prime timeline if the prime timeline already exists?
Third, all you need for time to exist is the movement of an object. With said object moving, it has past movements and present movements, and future movements. Simply having existing movements from the universe’s matter within a space, can create time. Time is described as “the measured or measurable period during which an action, process, or condition exists or continues” so simple actions are something that time is super dependent on. What the Annihilargh did was create matter within a space. Obviously the movements/actions of said matter are measurable, therefore, time starts existing all throughout the universe. It’s even stated on the Big Bang page, for the thousandth time: “Creating a supposed Big Bang that would create all the space of a universe or its space and time through a physical explosion is a 3-A feat, and grants Explosion Manipulation, limited Spatial Manipulation and limited Time Manipulation.” “If it has generated a space-time expansion that creates an entire universal spacetime continuum from scratch, it is treated as Low 2-C.”
Fourth, I’ve explained why the universe itself is 3-A and exists within a timeline. Here the universe is shown to be a cluster of galaxies. Kevin asks where they are and Paradox says it’s the “Space Beyond”. Yet, him and no watch Ben being outside of time and space, despite one timeline still existing, is said to be not a place, so Paradox can’t answer where they are. Another thing, the time stream is said to be like a tree, with the branches being timelines. It’s even shown to be that way. The time stream and the universe look nothing alike, as shown in the UA clip, the picture I linked and this picture as well.

• If Feeback can pull in the released energy to a hand-sized ball, undoing the expansion of the Universal Space-time, then the Extra-Dimensional field would have a similar effect of stopping and limiting the 4-D expansion to its field boundary. This also falls under the Low 2-C requirement.

Since I already explained why this is not low 2-C, I’ll move one to why the force of the Big Bang is not universal. Maybe it’d still be universal absorption for Feedback, but that doesn’t mean the Big Bang itself is universal.

Ok... then why the barrier? It's supposed to protect the contumelians, but according to your logic, the ship does that, or the big bang wasn't a danger to begin with. So what's the point? Also you're saying that the energy released shouldn't have universal AP... A big bang, which explicitly and was repeatedly said to create an universe doesn't have the energy of an universe? Finally, "it protects us from the release of energy" isn't exactly the most complex thing to understand, big explosion hurt, barrier protects

The barrier can protect them from nuclear radiations. I don’t know if you missed it but there was a whole ass discussion about “tanking” creation, as shown here. There are other dangerous factors other than big explosions. By “energy” the Contumelia could mean “dense thermal energy, as Agnaa said.

 

[Firestorm808]

Ben and Rook going to before the space-time continuum was made and then having space-time get made is no different than when the heroes and villains in DC were doing the same in COIE.

 

[Daddybrawl]

Ben and Rook going to before the space-time continuum was made and then having space-time get made is no different than when the heroes and villains in DC were doing the same in COIE.

I’m afraid that as a discussion about Ben 10, not everyone here’s going to understand what COIE is. Especially me. Please explain examples you provide that reference other verses, or otherwise use examples most people can understand and dis/agree with. I’d appreciate it.

 

[Firestorm808]

I’m afraid that as a discussion about Ben 10, not everyone here’s going to understand what COIE is. Especially me. Please explain examples you provide that reference other verses, or otherwise use examples most people can understand and dis/agree with. I’d appreciate it.

In Crisis on Infinite Earths, DC heroes and villains traveled back in time to before Universal Space-Time was made. They had a fight there in that timeless void before the universe and time was remade.

 

[Daddybrawl]

Thank you very much, Fire.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Ben and Rook going to before the space-time continuum was made and then having space-time get made is no different than when the heroes and villains in DC were doing the same in COIE.

Make arguments. Show scans. Give evidence. Go into detail. Explain why my points are wrong. Stop making these out of context and dismissive analogies and debate. Put in effort. I shouldn’t have to repeat myself for someone who’s not gonna bother debating. If you’re not gonna push the debate, please stop making claims without giving evidence or countering my claims, stop wasting my time, get other staff members, and leave. Because it’s crystal clear to me that you have almost 0 interest in debating me, the main contender. Me, your opponent. Me! The person who’s putting in all this effort only for you to either copy and past the same thing or make a response in a few sentences.

 

[Firestorm808]

Dude, calm down. I'm just presenting and interpreting what's in the show. At the moment we're discussing this fiction's depiction of a void before space-time was made. I made the reference to DC's COIE since it's basically the same premise. Timeless voids in fiction can have motion and thing happen. You are over complicating things.

Also, reading the Big Bang page, it contradicts the Tiering System. We should confer with the other mods if something needs to be revised between those two pages.

@Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @Qawsedf234
Can you help us with this?

 

[Agnaa]

So just to put this out there, are we saying Ben 10 is one of the rare verses that doesn’t have creation = destruction on the same level?

No. Like I said earlier, creation isn't inherently destruction, and any destruction associated with creating something doesn't have to be on the same level as creating the thing. If the ship would remain intact through the big bang, yet gets damaged by a ship flying into it, the only solutions are "That creation is associated with minimal destructive energy", "The ship crashed with Low 2-C force", or pis/outlier.

rook ship crashing in is still not an anti-feat, since the extra-dimensional field had nothing to do with it (it's for the big bang, not random intruder number 3)

I find it hard to believe that something that can protect from the big bang's energy (especially when phrased in those terms and not as, say, some haxxy anti-spatio-temporal expansion device) couldn't protect from a random ship's energy.

There’s just no evidence to suggest that the Field is protecting the whole ship-

If it's not protecting the whole ship then most of the ship would get destroyed, which seems like an asinine way to set up a protective barrier.

Ben and Rook going to before the space-time continuum was made and then having space-time get made is no different than when the heroes and villains in DC were doing the same in COIE.

I know nothing about DC, but maybe I'd want to downgrade that too if it's this bad.

What does Agnaa think btw?

This feat has inconsistencies at every level (time-wise, space-wise, explosion-wise, and ship-wise);

• Supporting it being Low 2-C, the realm is called a timeless void before the creation of the universe, and one character's time powers don't work, yet other characters used time travel to reach that place, all the events that we see taking place in that realm are part of a time loop, and ordinary humans and aliens (ordinary enough in that they should be subject to space and time) are able to function with zero fanfare or explanation.
• Despite space also presumably not being there, there are locations, there are barriers with things on one side and not another. Every second of screentime is an anti-feat.
• Even if we assume that time and space don't exist so that it would be a Low 2-C feat, a random spattering of Ben's aliens are able to temporarily hold it back, despite 99% of them having no reason to be anywhere near Low 2-C. And when it's released, it's merely a small beam of energy that causes one dude to slowly collapse into a wall-level-ish explosion. This supposedly 4-D object just acts like a 3-D ball of energy, there is no indication or mention of its existence across time.
• Also, the ship that should've protected them from such a Low 2-C feat gets a hole torn in it by a random spaceship crashing into it.

And lastly, the first thing I pointed out in this thread is that you don't often need durability to tank something being created, and that even when you do, you're tanking some side-effect of its creation (such as its temperature) rather than the actual creation itself, which can be far easier to tank than any involved "creation energy".

This is not to say that creation < destruction or something like that, because creation = destruction is to say that the energy it takes for a character to create something should be roughly equal to the energy it takes to destroy that thing. It's relevant when a creator performs a creation feat and gets a tier off of it, or when they create something and then use that same energy source to perform destructive feats. It doesn't mean that a character floating in space should get 5-B dura for the Earth being created 1m below them.

As such you need to be careful analyzing these sorts of feats. There's a very good reason why tanking a Low 2-C big bang (without additional supporting context) is explicitly not a tierable durability feat. I may not be the best person to analyze it since my evaluations for verses tier 2 and up have historically gone against the experts, but Ultima seems to at least find the situation here weird even if he's not super interested in giving a full-on evaluation.

 

[Daddybrawl]

.There’s just no evidence to suggest that the Field is protecting the whole ship-

If it's not protecting the whole ship then most of the ship would get destroyed, which seems like an asinine way to set up a protective barrier.

I’d like to note this wasn’t an argument against you or anything, just my attempts to counter Fires claim on how the Shield worked.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So from what I'm gathering this thread is about if Alien X can really effect a space-time continuum or if it just effects the matter located within the universe? I honestly don't know if I'm super qualified to give input on a rather major revision like this. I can give it a look though, so what are the most up to date arguments?

 

[Firestorm808]

So from what I'm gathering this thread is about if Alien X can really effect a space-time continuum or if it just effects the matter located within the universe? I honestly don't know if I'm super qualified to give input on a rather major revision like this. I can give it a look though, so what are the most up to date arguments?

Before we're able to get to that section of the scaling chain, we're currently discussing whether or not a Space-time expansion was made in a timeless void or not in the first place.

I claim that the setting takes place in a Timeless void. Basically, the main characters travel to before the creation of the universe and time like in DC's Crisis on Infinite Earths. Here, time is stated to not have started yet, and Time Manipulation is unusable.

If I'm summarizing this correctly, the other side claims that the setting is not a timeless void because motion and directions still occur and that there are actions part of a time loop connecting to the pre-time setting (ie. repeatedly going to the pre-time setting before getting dumped back into the timeline and not remembering the loop)

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Hop agreed I think, and Firestorm and Greenshifter seem to still disagree.

Hop did yes.
3-A makes sense to Hop.

 

[AKM sama]

This feat has inconsistencies at every level (time-wise, space-wise, explosion-wise, and ship-wise);

• Supporting it being Low 2-C, the realm is called a timeless void before the creation of the universe, and one character's time powers don't work, yet other characters used time travel to reach that place, all the events that we see taking place in that realm are part of a time loop, and ordinary humans and aliens (ordinary enough in that they should be subject to space and time) are able to function with zero fanfare or explanation.
• Despite space also presumably not being there, there are locations, there are barriers with things on one side and not another. Every second of screentime is an anti-feat.
• Even if we assume that time and space don't exist so that it would be a Low 2-C feat, a random spattering of Ben's aliens are able to temporarily hold it back, despite 99% of them having no reason to be anywhere near Low 2-C. And when it's released, it's merely a small beam of energy that causes one dude to slowly collapse into a wall-level-ish explosion. This supposedly 4-D object just acts like a 3-D ball of energy, there is no indication or mention of its existence across time.
• Also, the ship that should've protected them from such a Low 2-C feat gets a hole torn in it by a random spaceship crashing into it.

And lastly, the first thing I pointed out in this thread is that you don't often need durability to tank something being created, and that even when you do, you're tanking some side-effect of its creation (such as its temperature) rather than the actual creation itself, which can be far easier to tank than any involved "creation energy".

This is not to say that creation < destruction or something like that, because creation = destruction is to say that the energy it takes for a character to create something should be roughly equal to the energy it takes to destroy that thing. It's relevant when a creator performs a creation feat and gets a tier off of it, or when they create something and then use that same energy source to perform destructive feats. It doesn't mean that a character floating in space should get 5-B dura for the Earth being created 1m below them.

These points make the most sense to me here.

 

[Vietthai96]

you don't tank something that just expand or spread itself (unless specific case), like i said before, unless you on top of Big Bang at point blank (or distance = 0) then it could possibly qualify you to have Low 2-C rating.

 

[Firestorm808]

@AKM sama

• Supporting it being Low 2-C, the realm is called a timeless void before the creation of the universe, and one character's time powers don't work, yet other characters used time travel to reach that place
  • It's stated by Paradox that time beasts and their eggs are used to power the journey to places even beyond his reach (the timestream). This is why they are able to go before the creation of the timestream.
• All the events that we see taking place in that realm are part of a time loop
  • I don't see how Maltruant piecing himself together, traveling to before the timestream existed, and getting dumped back into the timeline as pieces to start again prevents the place before time being timeless.
• Ordinary humans and aliens (ordinary enough in that they should be subject to space and time) are able to function with zero fanfare or explanation.
  • This is no different than what happened in DC's Crisis on Infinite Earth's. They were fighting the Anti-Monitor before time began.
• Despite space also presumably not being there, there are locations, there are barriers with things on one side and not another. Every second of screentime is an anti-feat.
  • Ben 10's depiction of a timeless void is similar to that of other franchises. I don't think any other franchise depicts a scene in a timeless void without motion or actions taking place. Even DC's Overvoid has the same depiction of motion/actions.
• Even if we assume that time and space don't exist so that it would be a Low 2-C feat, a random spattering of Ben's aliens are able to temporarily hold it back, despite 99% of them having no reason to be anywhere near Low 2-C.
  • That scene was made as a call back to all the aliens in the order they were introduced in the series. The start and end of that scene was still Feedback.
• And when it's released, it's merely a small beam of energy that causes one dude to slowly collapse into a wall-level-ish explosion. This supposedly 4-D object just acts like a 3-D ball of energy, there is no indication or mention of its existence across time.
  • We don't base Attack Potency on the Area of Effect. We witness that the energy used to make the universe and its time was absorbed. Otherwise, we would have city-level New Gods. Also, Paradox could not arrive on the scene until the timestream was made. Feedback prevented a timestream from forming.
• Also, the ship that should've protected them from such a Low 2-C feat gets a hole torn in it by a random spaceship crashing into it.
  • No one in the show said anything about the ship protecting them. Only the Extra-Dimensional Field was stated to do such.

 

[Agnaa]

It's stated by Paradox that time beasts and their eggs are used to power the journey to places even beyond his reach (the timestream). This is why they are able to go before the creation of the timestream.

Using time beasts to time travel before time doesn't improve the situation.

I don't see how Maltruant piecing himself together, traveling to before the timestream existed, and getting dumped back into the timeline as pieces to start again prevents the place before time being timeless.

Are you implying that the only part of that series of events that is contained in the time loop are those where the timestream exists? Because that goes directly against the text, as he's said to be doomed to fail, yet he gets defeated (i.e. fails) before time existed.

This is no different than what happened in DC's Crisis on Infinite Earth's. They were fighting the Anti-Monitor before time began.

As I said before, I know nothing about DC, but maybe I'd want to downgrade that too if it's this bad.

Ben 10's depiction of a timeless void is similar to that of other franchises. I don't think any other franchise depicts a scene in a timeless void without motion or actions taking place.

Unsong is the only verse I'm knowledgeable on that even tries to establish timeless voids, and it depicts them without motion or actions taking place.

“No!” said Job. “I would prefer to live in a universe that was perfect and just!”


“I CREATED SUCH A UNIVERSE,” said God. “IN THAT UNIVERSE, THERE IS NO SPACE, FOR SPACE TAKES THE FORM OF SEPARATION FROM THINGS YOU DESIRE. THERE IS NO TIME, FOR TIME MEANS CHANGE AND DECAY, YET THERE MUST BE NO CHANGE FROM ITS MAXIMALLY BLISSFUL STATE. THE BEINGS WHO INHABIT THIS UNIVERSE ARE WITHOUT BODIES, AND DO NOT HUNGER OR THIRST OR LABOR OR LUST. THEY SIT UPON GOLDEN THRONES AND CONTEMPLATE THE PERFECTION OF ALL THINGS.

YET I ALSO CREATED YOUR UNIVERSE, THAT YOU MIGHT LIVE. TELL ME, JOB, IF I UNCREATED YOUR WORLD, WOULD YOU BE HAPPIER? OR WOULD YOU BE DEAD, WHILE FAR AWAY IN A DIFFERENT UNIVERSE INCORPOREAL BEINGS SAT ON THEIR GOLDEN THRONES REGARDLESS?”

But hell, maybe there is a grey area or some wiggle room for verses that are only slightly contradictory, but Ben 10 seems to contradict it in as many ways as possible.

 

[Planck69]

Agnaa still making sense to me. Also, I kinda want to read Unsong now lol.

 

[AKM sama]

And lastly, the first thing I pointed out in this thread is that you don't often need durability to tank something being created, and that even when you do, you're tanking some side-effect of its creation (such as its temperature) rather than the actual creation itself, which can be far easier to tank than any involved "creation energy".

@Firestorm808 what about this point?

 

[Agnaa]

@Firestorm808 what about this point?

This clip was provided by Firestorm earlier, there's a field protecting the ship said to "protect them from the upcoming release of energy", which Firestorm presumes is Low 2-C. I'd argue that it isn't for a variety of points that I brought up.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Agnaa @AKM sama

• Using time beasts to time travel before time doesn't improve the situation.
  • How is it any different from other beings in fiction traveling to before the creation of the timestream?
• Are you implying that the only part of that series of events that is contained in the time loop are those where the timestream exists? Because that goes directly against the text, as he's said to be doomed to fail, yet he gets defeated (i.e. fails) before time existed.
  • That's not what I said. How should we describe the setting of a place before a timestream exists, where it's stated to be before time began, where time manipulation is useless because there is no time to manipulate, and can connect with a time loop? Time before Standard Time is a higher version of time that exists above the standard space-time timestream?
• And lastly, the first thing I pointed out in this thread is that you don't often need durability to tank something being created, and that even when you do, you're tanking some side-effect of its creation (such as its temperature) rather than the actual creation itself, which can be far easier to tank than any involved "creation energy".
  • I haven't said anything about tanking creation. I said that the Device/Characters are capable of significantly affecting an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Feedback pulled in the released energy, preventing a timestream from forming. It wasn't just thermal energy. The Extra-Dimensional field would have a similar effect since none of the released energy would breach it.

 

[Agnaa]

How is it any different from other beings in fiction traveling to before the creation of the timestream?

I find that sorta thing fairly silly too. If other series have non-abstract spatio-temporal beings time traveling to before the creation of the universe and then tanking some creation explosion, I'd argue against that as well.

That's not what I said. How would you describe the setting of a place before a timestream exists, where it's stated to be before time began, where time manipulation is useless because there is no time to manipulate, and can connect with a time loop?

You said that the time loop stuff doesn't prevent the "timeless void" from being timeless, by talking about portions of the time loop that took place within the timeline.

Everything past your first sentence seems unrelated to what I said. I am aware that there are those statements about it, and I've already said I don't find them sufficient in face of the anti-feats.

I don't understand that "connecting with a time loop" thing, where'd you get that from?

I haven't said anything about tanking creation. I said that the Device/Characters are capable of significantly affecting an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Feedback pulled in the released energy, preventing a timestream from forming. It wasn't just thermal energy. The Extra-Dimensional field would have a similar effect since none of the released energy would breach it.

Even though you haven't said anything about tanking creation, an important part of what you're responding to is that those side-effects can be far smaller than the actual creation itself. So how are you trying to establish the potency of those side effects?

I said that the Device/Characters are capable of significantly affecting an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space.

That's the creation itself you're talking about, not the side-effect that we're interested in tiering.

Feedback pulled in the released energy, preventing a timestream from forming.

A variety of other random aliens who have no business getting Low 2-C energy manip also successfully struggled and temporarily suppressed it. And when that energy was released, it wasn't some timeline appearing on top of everyone, it was a small beam of energy that took a few seconds to kill a High 5-A, leaving a small explosion behind. While I do think this is your best point, those two anti-feats for it make me less willing to use it.

It wasn't just thermal energy.

How'd you learn that?

The Extra-Dimensional field would have a similar effect since none of the released energy would breach it.

This, again, assumes (without any solid reasoning I can gleam) that the harmful energy is roughly equal to the Low 2-C creation. Separately, I'd like to again point out the random spaceship crashing through the ship equipped with the extra-dimensional field; I'd expect something that can tank beyond infinite energy to be able to deal with some measly finite kinetic energy.

 

[Greenshifter]

So how exactly is the Annihilargh supposed to create the prime timeline if the prime timeline already exists?

Actually how would the Annihilaargh even create the matter of the universe if the matter clearly exists in the timeline Ben and Rook come from, heck Ben and Rook exists?

 

[Arceus0x]

From the big bang page
"Surviving a Low 2-C Big Bang isn't a Universe level+ feat in durability due to the non-physical nature of such an event. However, this ideally only applies to Big Bangs as natural events, instead of attacks with a destructive capacity independent of their size and tier."

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Hold on, that sounds like a weird rule. How does tanking a Big Bang that has legit Low 2-C showings not a Tier 2 durability feat?

 

[AKM sama]

I can agree that characters traveling to a place/setting prior to the formation of time and doing things there is not really a debunk. It's fiction and it happens. The points about time powers not working and Paradox not being able to go there due to lack of time also support that time did not exist.

Although Agnaa has a point about the side effects not being necessarily Low 2-C and the inconsistency where random aliens temporarily suppressed the energy.

 

[Firestorm808]

Hold on, that sounds like a weird rule. How does tanking a Big Bang that has legit Low 2-C showings not a Tier 2 durability feat?

I also wanted to bring up contradictions from the Big Bang page with the Tiering System Page.

Big Bang Page: Creating a supposed Big Bang that would create all the space of a universe or its space and time through a physical explosion is a 3-A feat, and grants Explosion Manipulation, limited Spatial Manipulation and limited Time Manipulation.

Tiering System:
3-A: Universe level
Characters who can destroy all celestial bodies within a volume at least equivalent to the observable universe via an omnidirectional explosion, alternately create or significantly affect[1] a universe of comparable size, which does not involve the destruction and/or creation of space-time.