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- Both are High 6-A
- Speed Equalized
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Aizen vs Toneri Otsutsuki
- Thread starter Shadowbokunohero
- Start date
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Redundant.
Hitsugaya already won against Toneri and Aizen is insanely above him.
Hitsugaya already won against Toneri and Aizen is insanely above him.
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I believe Toshiro won via Power Null, Aizen doesnt have that
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I doubt that Toshiro can defeat Toneri, concentrate on one's abilities only. Toneri has a power of denial much better than Hitsugaya with Gudodamas that can deny any type of attack that does not possess Senjutsu and in turn destroy matter at the atomic or higher level. That doesn't take into account that the range of Toneri attacks is much higher than those of Toshiro, Toneri has a ******* blade of 3472 kilometers with which he can annihilate Toshiro's atoms and in turn deny the ability of his matured bankai. And they give too much importance to the freezing type attacks in Naruto, when Momoshiki himself uses absolute zero attacks and Naruto and Sasuke and the rest of those present in that battle weren't annihilated as they try to imply every time a character like Toshiro or Rukia has a versus against a high level character of the Narutoverse fight with them. At this rate I think that the most extreme fans of Bleach would say that Rukia beats Madara or similar lol.
How do we end up talking about Toshiro in a versus of Aizen?
How do we end up talking about Toshiro in a versus of Aizen?
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I believe High 6-A Aizen is Monster Aizen. He is likely below Toshiro anyway.
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@Dariel Senju Because Toshiro had already won against Toneri via his matured bankai, now it's wondering why Aizen who is arguably higher doesn't win
When has momoshiki used a absolute zero attack?
Anyway I give it to Aizen via Body Wide Kyokya Suigetsu and Ultra Fragor Spam since around this time Kyokya Suigetsu should be activated if you so much as look at his body
When has momoshiki used a absolute zero attack?
Anyway I give it to Aizen via Body Wide Kyokya Suigetsu and Ultra Fragor Spam since around this time Kyokya Suigetsu should be activated if you so much as look at his body
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Even if Toshiro with his mature bankai could win to Toneri doesn't mean that Aizen, that for being stronger can do it since in any case Aizen would not count on what Toshiro used to win. And I still don't see how Toshiro with his mature bankai would win against Toneri against his attacks of much higher rank, destructive power and hax since the Gudodamas not only destroy at the atomic level (or higher) but also deny an unlimited Regenerationn like that of the Edo Tensei as well as destroy the own souls of their opponents.
The four seconds it takes for Toshiro to freeze things is more than enough time for Toneri who attacks sub relativistic speeds (almost 3% of the speed of light) to kill him, with that Toneri would have killed him 5 times before Toshiro (or Aizen and any Bleach character in his absence) realizes.
Momoshiki uses absolute zero-strikes in the novelization of Boruto the Movie.
The Fragor of Aizen isn't even compared to a normal Bijudama of any Bijuu, much less will be able to pass the Gudodamas that have resisted the second most destructive attack of all Naruto without problems (the four Bijudamas Hiper Massivas of Obito). The only alternative of Aizen is the complete hypnosis of Kyoka Suigetsu. I don't know where you get that just by looking at Aizen's body you fall into the effect of Kyoka Suigetsu.
Aizen could win Toneri with Kyoka Suigetsu, but Toshiro with his mature bankai I don't see any way he could win considering Toneri's greater speed, physical strength, endurance, versatility and destructive power. The only thing that Toshiro has is an attack too slow that will not work.
The four seconds it takes for Toshiro to freeze things is more than enough time for Toneri who attacks sub relativistic speeds (almost 3% of the speed of light) to kill him, with that Toneri would have killed him 5 times before Toshiro (or Aizen and any Bleach character in his absence) realizes.
Momoshiki uses absolute zero-strikes in the novelization of Boruto the Movie.
The Fragor of Aizen isn't even compared to a normal Bijudama of any Bijuu, much less will be able to pass the Gudodamas that have resisted the second most destructive attack of all Naruto without problems (the four Bijudamas Hiper Massivas of Obito). The only alternative of Aizen is the complete hypnosis of Kyoka Suigetsu. I don't know where you get that just by looking at Aizen's body you fall into the effect of Kyoka Suigetsu.
Aizen could win Toneri with Kyoka Suigetsu, but Toshiro with his mature bankai I don't see any way he could win considering Toneri's greater speed, physical strength, endurance, versatility and destructive power. The only thing that Toshiro has is an attack too slow that will not work.
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@Dariel
You can contest the Toneri match here to see if it can be removed and then maybe remade. But you can continue debating this one as you wish. The Gudodama only negated the Edo Tensei Regenerationn because they're ninjutsu, which what they negate in the first place. Fragor doesn't have as much DC as a Bijuudama, but since Aizen is High 6-A, the Fragor is at that level as well. But yes, the Gudodama can take care of it with verse equalization.
I don't get where looking at Aizen gets you under KS comes from, that's from EoS Aizen. But Monster Aizen's Zanpakutō was disintegrated and it probably merged with him, and he was saying something along the lines of the Hogyoku deciding he doesn't need a Zanpakutō anymore. He probably won't use KS in character.
You can contest the Toneri match here to see if it can be removed and then maybe remade. But you can continue debating this one as you wish. The Gudodama only negated the Edo Tensei Regenerationn because they're ninjutsu, which what they negate in the first place. Fragor doesn't have as much DC as a Bijuudama, but since Aizen is High 6-A, the Fragor is at that level as well. But yes, the Gudodama can take care of it with verse equalization.
I don't get where looking at Aizen gets you under KS comes from, that's from EoS Aizen. But Monster Aizen's Zanpakutō was disintegrated and it probably merged with him, and he was saying something along the lines of the Hogyoku deciding he doesn't need a Zanpakutō anymore. He probably won't use KS in character.
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@Homu
I believe Monster Aizen scales to Bankai Kenpachi and is actually stronger than him going by how the profile addresses it.
@Dariel
Flash freeze takes less than a second. A simple hand gesture takes care of it. The four second thing is the "freeze all matter in front of me" bit. He can still freeze anything or anyone under a second.
I believe Monster Aizen scales to Bankai Kenpachi and is actually stronger than him going by how the profile addresses it.
@Dariel
Flash freeze takes less than a second. A simple hand gesture takes care of it. The four second thing is the "freeze all matter in front of me" bit. He can still freeze anything or anyone under a second.
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@Burning Full Fingers
I understand thanks for the recommendation, before I should read the thread where took that versus to see the arguments for and against. You are right, here there is the equivalence of energies as I understand why they would also deny the attacks of the characters of Bleach, the Gudodamas also affect the souls since Tobirama mentions it as much as it is seen in Minato that even being a spirit his arms They did not regenerate.
That Aizen is such a tier doesn't raise his attacks to that level, it would be like saying that for Naruto being Moon Level his Rasengan are also. At most, an Aizen Fragor is Mountain Level.
In the battle with Yhwach I think I remember that Aizen was using his Kyoka Suigetsu to use his hypnosis (I only read the ending not the complete saga of the Quincy) so it must be needed to use that function of his Zanpakuto. Likewise, looking at your body falls into the field of speculation.
@Aizenishere
Toshiro's freezing properties do not work against the Gudodamas that would nullify the ice as soon as he comes into contact with it, and although Toshiro can freeze quickly as he showed against Gerard, only the part of the 4 seconds is what gives him the possibility of winning in this combat and that no longer works so much for the denial of the Gudodamas but for the speed at which Toneri's attacks are executed, 10 meters away from Toneri's Kinrin Tensei Baku it would only take 1 microsecond to reach Toshiro. This isn't a speed blitz just because the speeds are equalized, but in a realistic scenario Toneri would end Toshiro before he realizes it.
I understand thanks for the recommendation, before I should read the thread where took that versus to see the arguments for and against. You are right, here there is the equivalence of energies as I understand why they would also deny the attacks of the characters of Bleach, the Gudodamas also affect the souls since Tobirama mentions it as much as it is seen in Minato that even being a spirit his arms They did not regenerate.
That Aizen is such a tier doesn't raise his attacks to that level, it would be like saying that for Naruto being Moon Level his Rasengan are also. At most, an Aizen Fragor is Mountain Level.
In the battle with Yhwach I think I remember that Aizen was using his Kyoka Suigetsu to use his hypnosis (I only read the ending not the complete saga of the Quincy) so it must be needed to use that function of his Zanpakuto. Likewise, looking at your body falls into the field of speculation.
@Aizenishere
Toshiro's freezing properties do not work against the Gudodamas that would nullify the ice as soon as he comes into contact with it, and although Toshiro can freeze quickly as he showed against Gerard, only the part of the 4 seconds is what gives him the possibility of winning in this combat and that no longer works so much for the denial of the Gudodamas but for the speed at which Toneri's attacks are executed, 10 meters away from Toneri's Kinrin Tensei Baku it would only take 1 microsecond to reach Toshiro. This isn't a speed blitz just because the speeds are equalized, but in a realistic scenario Toneri would end Toshiro before he realizes it.
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The only notable difference is the 4 second one freezes all matter in front of him. Toshiro doesn't need to freeze whatever Toneri throws at him. He can just freeze Toneri himself.
Right realistic scenario well we're talking about speeds equalized so no need to preach to the choir
Right realistic scenario well we're talking about speeds equalized so no need to preach to the choir
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- sighs
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Why you sighing m8 
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Lol. Nothing major, it's just that the Toneri thing should be discussed in the removal thread.
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Ahh.. on the note of threads this one should probably stop being derailed haha. Next you hear of me I'll come bearing a vote!
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@Aizenishere
You mention that Toshiro can freeze things in less than a second with just moving his hands, but it doesn't matter because when Toshiro is going to move a finger he would be finished, his freezing attacks are the only thing he has and without these he can not do more, the speed at which his attacks spread is much slower than Toneri's attacks are made. The same, any attempt to freeze the Gudodama by Toshiro would be unsuccessful because the Gudodama would cancel such action, we already saw how Gerard and Toshiro himself establish that their freezing powers do not work in attacks based on pure power like the Kinrin Tensei Baku, see where you see Toshiro has no chance to win.
Aizen does have real possibilities (and I think that in this Aizen wins but very hard), but not for an argument like Toshiro won Toneri (which we see that is not good founded).
You mention that Toshiro can freeze things in less than a second with just moving his hands, but it doesn't matter because when Toshiro is going to move a finger he would be finished, his freezing attacks are the only thing he has and without these he can not do more, the speed at which his attacks spread is much slower than Toneri's attacks are made. The same, any attempt to freeze the Gudodama by Toshiro would be unsuccessful because the Gudodama would cancel such action, we already saw how Gerard and Toshiro himself establish that their freezing powers do not work in attacks based on pure power like the Kinrin Tensei Baku, see where you see Toshiro has no chance to win.
Aizen does have real possibilities (and I think that in this Aizen wins but very hard), but not for an argument like Toshiro won Toneri (which we see that is not good founded).
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Again m8 you're preaching to the choir here. Did you read the vs thread?
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Of course friend, unfortunately Toshiro's freeze argument is invalid. And to say that Aizen wins because supposedly Toshiro wins is as or more invalid than the first, if Aizen wins is by own merits not receiving an absurd powerscaling of an other victory.
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Aizen spams KS and fragor and any kidou he wants to win.
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Fragor is nothing more than a purple Bijudama, an attack that in the Narutoverse has a considerably low power compared to the most destructive attacks and still has much more power than the Fragor. They mention both that attack which is the equivalent of saying that if a Bijuu throws many normal Bijudamas to Toneri he wins lol, when Kurama fighting with even the Giant Statue of Toneri couldn't beat him for more Bijudamas he used.
The two most powerful Kido of Aizen are the Kurohitsugi, that for the physical standards of Toneri (extremely superior to those of Ichigo) it would be easy to destroy it, the other is the Goryütenmetsu that was so random that we only saw a cute giant dragon and nothing else.
In Attack Potency, Range, Speed, Lifting and Striking strength Toneri beats Aizen by too much, Aizen's only chance is Kyoka Suigetsu's hypnosis (and because the speeds are matched in this versus) to the point that if in a combat Aizen can't use it has nothing to do against Toneri.
Although this is almost like putting Goku or Vegeta Saiyan Saga against Itachi and saying that for the illusions Itachi wins, if Aizen wins this is due to the circumstances stipulated in the versus and the hax of his Zanpakuto, and even then it would cost too much.
The two most powerful Kido of Aizen are the Kurohitsugi, that for the physical standards of Toneri (extremely superior to those of Ichigo) it would be easy to destroy it, the other is the Goryütenmetsu that was so random that we only saw a cute giant dragon and nothing else.
In Attack Potency, Range, Speed, Lifting and Striking strength Toneri beats Aizen by too much, Aizen's only chance is Kyoka Suigetsu's hypnosis (and because the speeds are matched in this versus) to the point that if in a combat Aizen can't use it has nothing to do against Toneri.
Although this is almost like putting Goku or Vegeta Saiyan Saga against Itachi and saying that for the illusions Itachi wins, if Aizen wins this is due to the circumstances stipulated in the versus and the hax of his Zanpakuto, and even then it would cost too much.
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Ohnoki stated that his style destroys at "near-molecular" level. That's quite a jump to assuming that Gudoudama is "atomization or higher" when in fact it is not even that, it has only vaporized things maybe once in the series, and other times it doesn't do anything other than get stuck on things like ground, walls, cloaks and Sakura.
Also has anyone calced Kurohitsugi yet? I don't think Toneri is slapping that gravity away.
Also has anyone calced Kurohitsugi yet? I don't think Toneri is slapping that gravity away.
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Since Aizen can use 99, it can ve reasonably assumed he can use any kido 1 to 99.
Aizen via versatility and intelligence.
Aizen via versatility and intelligence.
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Aizen for the reasons above.
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Wait, how does learning the Kidos work, because looking on his profile he has only shown a few of them. Has it been said that to know the next number Kido you actually have to know the one before? Example if you know 56 you can do 55. If not, I really dont think Aizen has this. I will give you intelligence, but I will say that is only when given prep time. Without prep time I give it to Toneri due to pure destructive abilities.
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Its just common sense. The higher the number the harder it is to use. There is no reason they cant use a lower number. Its a reasonable assumption. Rukia using hado #1 and saying Aizen cannot do that is very silly.
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Well, I never knew how it worked, not quite up to speed with bleach like at all. Either way, do we know what all of them are (99 seems like a lot of abilities). If not saying he will win with abilities we dont even know is quite a huge NFL.
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Idk how many are known but im just basing my answer off of the ones we know
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All but 2 of the Kido in his profile are defensive barries that dont seem to have blocked anything beyond the Tier 7 range. The lightning attack requires him to be close and will be hard to land due to the Byakugan and the TSBs. The last Kido has no description of what it does..And Toneri can just use the Tenseigan to make a repulsive force before blasting him with either silver wheel explosion or golden wheel explosion.
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@Rocker
The power of the Kido scales with the power of the user. It's why EoS Aizens Kurohitsugi without incantation was stronger than butterfly Aizens Full Incantation version. So claiming his Kido won't work because a weaker version of Aizens Kido only showed to work in said tier doesn't add up.
Voting Aizen for.. well.. Aizens reasons. Aizen has many means of offence and defence and the intelligence to use them accordingly all the while assessing his opponent. If we wanna go comparing Ultrafragor to the Bijudama well then let's say the Hogyokou is Kurama since everything it gives Aizen is extra. And Aizen is Naruto since they both inherently have a huge reserve of their verses source of power. Naruto properly punched Toneri in the face once and Toneri got knocked the **** out without Kurama even in the equation. Also Aizen won't sit there and watch Toneri call forth the golden wheel.. not happening. This version of Aizen is going to be in his ******* face with the spam.
The power of the Kido scales with the power of the user. It's why EoS Aizens Kurohitsugi without incantation was stronger than butterfly Aizens Full Incantation version. So claiming his Kido won't work because a weaker version of Aizens Kido only showed to work in said tier doesn't add up.
Voting Aizen for.. well.. Aizens reasons. Aizen has many means of offence and defence and the intelligence to use them accordingly all the while assessing his opponent. If we wanna go comparing Ultrafragor to the Bijudama well then let's say the Hogyokou is Kurama since everything it gives Aizen is extra. And Aizen is Naruto since they both inherently have a huge reserve of their verses source of power. Naruto properly punched Toneri in the face once and Toneri got knocked the **** out without Kurama even in the equation. Also Aizen won't sit there and watch Toneri call forth the golden wheel.. not happening. This version of Aizen is going to be in his ******* face with the spam.
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Voting for Aizen. KS spam, versatility, hundreds of years experience, and definitely far smarter than Toneri.
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@Homu
Doubtful that this version of Aizen would use KS unless he was forced to. But yea it is also there as an option
Doubtful that this version of Aizen would use KS unless he was forced to. But yea it is also there as an option
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The intelligence and experience gap are the most deciding factor actually.
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Monster Aizen doesn't even use KS in character though? Plus he's scaled to Shikai Kenpachi who's meteor slicing feat was 1.2 petatons while Toneri's moon slicing feat is 597 petatons just saying...
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Monster Aizen won't relied on his intelligence.
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Also, I don't even think Aizen could hurt Toneri considering it took Naruto's chakra punch, which overpowered said moon slicing attack, to actually take Toneri out.
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^His moon attack wasn't fully extended the second time, so he doesn't get the full ap value
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I don't see how that makes sense... the beam itself is 597 petatons regardless of length, or else it wouldn't have effortlessly sliced through the moon in the first place. If were using that logic then an island level beam would slice through the moon as long as it's the same length as the moon, unless there's something I'm missing here?
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Again the attarctive force of Tenseigan will render his defenses abilities useless. As he will be moved out of them. And like UzumakiKurisu said in character he wont use KS.
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Aizen FOr reasons stated above.
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Aizen will use KS. he wont use it immediately due to him being more arrogant in this form but he will use it. The only reason he didn't use it was because he was fightong Ichigo, who he made sure to not put him under KS.
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