Aigis vs Lancelot the redux

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

There's no VN, only the anime and a light novel version.

And considering how Lancelot was actually matching her, if not pressuring her using only a telephone pole augmented by his Knight of Owner...

Saber was in complete emotional disarray, but it doesn't change the fact she could barely do a thing to Lancelot. She didn't die only because he killed his master with his mana consumption after 10 seconds.

 

[Schnee_One]

Not only this, even without her knowing who he was, Lancelot casually caught her blade in the LN as well

 

[Edwellken]

She doesn't have to start with it, just use it before he hits her using his own buffs.

That said, Lancelot FRA assuming he actually ca one shot.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Though, it'd be good to pin point where does he keep all these weapons or even use them. They appear out of thin air? In stand by somewhere? Starts on the jet pulling most of it on him and using them up from the get go?

 

[Mx2432]

Is Dirahan an unlimited resource for Aigis? I get she has unlimited stamina but I just want to make sure if the Game Mechanics of limited SP applies here?

In any case as much as I want to say Aigis can win even with Diarahan if we go by their normal personality tendencies Aigis seeing she would be unable to overpower Lancelot normally would likely try to use Orgia mode which would still not be enough for the Berserker Lancelot and would suffer overheating leaving her in a great moment of weakness.

I also assume since this is before she even gets the Fool Arcana she does not have Ex Orgia mode yet. Which she acquired in P4 Arena after the Answer.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

We assume Servants have unlimited mana for the purposes of not having them poof in the middle of battle since, well, they kinda can't exist without it. But not sure if that goes for the mana of magic casters. I have never seen anyone bring up shortage of mana.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[Edwellken]

I'm switching my vote back to Aigis on a count of

1, her getting a massive range upgrade,

2, the rules for a one-shot got revised,

3, my previous reasons

 

[Schnee_One]

2. Revisions were counting raw AP, not stomping people who are already much stronger

 

[Edwellken]

Yes but we do have a solid number now. If he didn't literally one shot said stronger characters, "stomping" them isn't enough. You need to prove he can create a 7.5x power difference.

 

[Schnee_One]

Stomping someone almost 4x stronger then Aigis works well enough

Assuming that actually is a solid number which. It isn't, there isn't a written rule on this last I checked

 

[Edwellken]

I wouldn't call it 4x, but it still wouldn't be a one shot even then.

What was the consensus then?

Also it doesn't really matter when Berserker can't even get close due to the range gap.

 

[Schnee_One]

She's Baseline. Lancelot is>>>>>>>>385 Megatons

There wasn't one, there was still plenty of discussion

Most of her attacks do zero damage so he can close it

 

[Edwellken]

She's not baseline, but I'm tired of repeating myself so I'll humor you. Lancelot is supposedly able to "stomp" characters at 385 Megatons, but he doesn't one shot them. That's nowhere near enough to say he can one shot a baseline, and even the you're disregarding the fact that Aigis can boost her own defenses about 4x.

Can you link the thread?

She can kite him just as easily as he can close the gap. In fact it'll be much easier on her account seeing how she's not the one being hammered by ranged attacks, which will damage him, especially when you consider she can buff those as well. She's a tactical fighter, who doesn't use any melee weapons. She has no reason to let him get in range.

 

[Schnee_One]

He hits Saber once and her arm is broken and she is only able to heal or with Mana, that's obviously being much stronger, and Aigis has literally zero calc so if she isn't Baseline where is she?

I can't prove a negative, there was a one shot thread here

Luring involves getting closer or trying to flank, literally destroying the reason for her range?

 

[Edwellken]

The version of Erebus with the Mountain level statement was much weaker than the one Aigis fought, as stated by Elizabeth.

Yeah, I was asking for a link. But I guess I'll look for it myself.

Why would she do either of those when she has a range advantage?

 

[Schnee_One]

The link to a thread that didn't decide this? There wasn't, that's why there isn't a consensus

Because that's what you said she would do, that's what "Kiting" is

 

[Edwellken]

I know, I just wanted to see where the discussion ended up.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Kiting

The idea is that she'll abuse her range advantage and run.

 

[Mx2432]

I do have a few things to ask first considering I am not too knowldegable on Persona:

- Does hurting the Persona also affect the user kind of like a stand does? because there are some moments in the series where this is true but I am not sure

- Is Aigis herself Mountain level or is she Mountain level due to her Persona?


As for the Range thing, from what I can get Persona skills do perform long range attacks but it still needs for the user to see them and keep up with them to actually be effective. And not all of her persona attacks do long range, from what I can get only the Heat Wave and Swift Strike do attacks from long range the others require her persona itself to close the range to perform the attack. For Berserker closing the range is actually likely, Aigis can't perform her Persona skills in rapid succession and due to Berserkers madness he would mostly ignore any damage done to him if any at all and would keep pursuing her

 

[Edwellken]

- Hurting the Persona is only shown to affect the user in the anime, which is non canon.

- Both. Aigis herself is Mountain level, and so is her Persona. Personas scale to the user so if Aigis gets stronger so would a weaker Persona as it grew alongside her. At the same time, Persona users assume the strengths of their equipped Personas, so if she took on one that was far stronger than her she would gain its stats (but Persona users generally have to be within a certain range to take on a stronger Persona, hence the level requirements in game mechanic terms). Aigis is the one with the Mountain level feat here though.

Each of the Persona skills have the Kilometers range, including the melee ones. Her range scales to the P5 characters who could use Persona skills from such a distance against Yaldabaoth. She can keep running away from Berserker while attacking, and with speed equal he'd need to stop her from moving or use some boost to close the distance himself.

 

[Mx2432]

Yaldabaoth is gigantic they can see him even from kilometers away and it is stormy so visibility is a bit less.

Is it even in character for Aigis to even use this tactic. Their tactics always involved using their various Persona skills to hinder their target or support themselves. Well, Let's say that she does

Obviously she does not start with this tactic for an unkown opponent, it would probably start with the normal confrontation of him using his Pseudo-NP's to attack her in close range immediately due to his madness, she shoots at him first or tries to use her Persona, Berserker either outmanuevers the gun or ignores the damage due to his madness and closes the range for an attack, she either tries to dodge or use her Persona to block. After the demonstration of strength knowing she would probably sustain great damage if she gets hit she would try to keep her distance. Now this is the question can she get away from him once he closes the range?

Assuming she does, she would only now try the kiting tactic you mentioned, after a while of taking some damage Berserker (knowing he cannot catch her through his instincts as a top-class fighter would try another tactic) would use the Jet ( through some wierd occurance added by the one who suggested this battle ) greatly increasing it's attack power and speed to catch up whilst shooting bullets and missile upgraded to his own Attack Power and Speed, which means taking a few of these hits would probably be fatal to her, She would be surprised at the sudden appearance of a jet and try to shoot it down with her Persona.

If she mangaes to survive a gatling gun barrage of Bullets and missiles on the level of a noble phantasm and somehow destroys the jet she would lose track of Berserker in the ensuing carnage, allowig Berserker to close the distance again. This time Berserker would either have the gatling gun from the jet for a long range weapon and a close range weapon.

As far as I can say the kiting tactic would only work if Aigis can defeat Berserker quickly or Berserker sticks to one tactic, but Berserker whilst mad has his instincts from his true self allows him to adapt to his opponent's tactic and try to search for other methods of attacking. Whilst Berserker is not strong enough to one shot he still only needs a few consecutive hits to beat Aigis.

 

[John985]

This is a very constructive argument...

I'm a fan of this two series, so it's hard to vote. But because of Mx2432 argument, yeah Lancelot FRA.

 

[Edwellken]

Alright, where to start.

For one, Aigis massively outranges and SBA puts them at 4 Kilometers away from each other. He's not going to cross that distance easily by any means, meanwhile her targeting systems allow her to pick up on him and take advantage of her range.

She doesn't need to know to use the kiting tactic because attacking from such a range is normal for her. She has no reason to get close and when she sees the opponent trying to do so, she's gonna back up, and in seeing that he doesn't use any ranged attacks of his own, she'll incorporate keeping a distance into her strategy.

Aigis can keep up with the jet with speed buffs and jet boostets of her own, and she still outranges it.

And even then from what I understand Arondight is the only thing that lets him potentially one shot, so she can just heal everything else and resume the running away game.

 

[Mx2432]

But the problem with that tactic is the speed in which she can use her persona skills, she can only buff one at a time ad she only buffs what she need at the moment, and even without Arondight his Pseudo NP's are still Mountain level and reach his levels of speed, with the Jey he was even able to match Vimana in terms of speed. And with a 4km distance inside a city in stormy weather, Berserker could easily stay out of her sight and close the distance. And what's more he could just enter spirit form to close the distance

 

[Edwellken]

Buffs work on a duration so while she can only cast one at a time, she can use them all at once. Also, they stack.

The jet would give him a comparable boost to Aigis's own thrusters, and she has speed buffs on top of those.

Staying out of sight definitely wouldn't be in character for him, and neither would entering spirit form in the middle of battle.

 

[Mx2432]

Not in character at first, but he adapts to the situation, if he can't close the distance while being seen if he has an option otherwise he would take it, the only reason why servants don't use this tactic is because servants can sense other servants even in spirit form.

 

[Edwellken]

But would Mad Enhancement even let him use that tactic?

Also he has no way of knowing whether or not Aigis would be able to sense him.

 

[Mx2432]

He has used other tacxtics that despite his mad enchantment would suggest otherwise. He used a plane against Gilgamesh's Vimana, he used Gil's own NP's against him, he hid himself using Rider's appearance. He usually attacks like a mad servant but due to his skills being so great in life he retains it in his fighting and he adapts to the opponents fighting style, he only completely loses to his madness against Arturia. And the tactic isn't so complex that he wouldn't consider it

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Using For Someones Glory to kidnap Iri required two command seals, ot isn't in character for Lance to do it at all.

 

[Mx2432]

Yeah but Berserker is still not completely lost to his madness, tactics like keeping out of sight of a long range fighter isn't impossible for him

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Its more like he would grab some branches and deflect/dodge attacks while he charges them down.

 

[Mx2432]

Not really, if he experiences attacks he cannot see he would consider this tactic. Also he used his spirit form to enter battle with Gil and used it again to escape from Rider, without a command spell.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

The spirit form is how he normally is and he only used it to get to the plane. Against Rider, Kariya told him to pull back since Gil left and he was just blindsided by an above A rank strike without even defending himself.

Doesn't really matter though since he is on a jet (I assume its the fighter from Zero) so he gets missiles thst he can have home on the target, crap tons of guns and the bullets to use them. The odds if the jet even getting knocked out of the air is low seeing as he was dodging GoB weapons constantly and they were also homing.

Lancelot carpet bombs ftw.

 

[Mx2432]

Well that point to my earlier statement, if he does get into the jet he can easily use both the guns and missiles which he can manually control the direction of, most of the persona attacks are useful for stationary targets hell sometimes they are even dodged so it shows that aigis has to point out where the attack happens which is hard if the target is extremely mobile or she is being attacked simultanously.

Thats only add to my statement, Berserker would remain in spirit form until he gets within range or gets something he can use to close that range

 

[AnonymousBlank]

He starts next to/on a jet though, spirit form is kinda irrelevant.

 

[Mx2432]

The fight setting is iffy on that, whether or not he starts near a plane or not, and I doubt he would immediately consider riding a jet against an opponent not using a flying vehicle

 

[Edwellken]

most of the persona attacks are useful for stationary targets hell sometimes they are even dodged so it shows that aigis has to point out where the attack happens which is hard if the target is extremely mobile or she is being attacked simultanously.

This is essentially just arguing that she can only hit stationary targets because she's an rpg character.

And the thing about the range still hasn't been countered, like most of the points I brought up.

If he doesn't one shot or incapacitate her quickly, she heals to full.

If she realizes she's fighting a losing battle, she seals.

Eventually, she will take him down without a one shot. The range advantage just makes it that much harder for him to do so.

 

[Mx2432]

I'm not saying she can't hit moving targets but she has to point out where the movement of the target would be in order to hit, it does not automatically hit the target just because she activates it. Closing the distance could easily be achived through both the jet and spirit form. As for the healing is under the assumption she can heal while she is under constant attack.


I would ask how the sealing works though

 

[Edwellken]

Yeah it doesn't home, but all that means is she has to aim the attack normally. That's not really a downside. Plus the speed buff is also a boost to accuracy. The jet won't really help him and spirit form is out of character.

I'll try to find the clip where she does it but it might take a while.

 

[Mx2432]

Spirit form is not OOC, his normal state is in spirit form and only materializes when in range of the opponent