DC Comics - Lucifer Abilities

[Robo432343]

resistance to probability manip - Lucifer tanks an assault from The Basanos.
(Lucifer vol 1 #23). The basanos Kills people by manifesting their possible deaths and they seek out all possible deaths and inflect all of them on someone at the same time. But then they stomped lucifer by using his own powers on him, the probability manipulation didn't work tho.

pain tolerance, immortality type 2 - Removed a toxic cherub from his body by literally impaling himself

phasing - phases through a dude (Lucifer Nirvana page 36)

Non physical interaction - Made souls into physical being

immunity to fire (Lucifer: Nirvana page 38)

social influencing - manipulated misubi into killing herself who was sent to kill lucifer (Lucifer 2000, issue #6)

Healing: Healed Mazikeen

resistance to death manip - was unaffected by 7 layers of death (Lucifer Nirvana page 44)

water manipulation: seeded the ground with ocean to which water receded from land

gravity manipulation: while forming creation, the gravitational dance pulls planets out of suns, trawls moons out of the black deeps

forcefield creation: created an invisible barrier at a fire blast

organic manipulation: as shown here

Vibration manipulation: Lucifer screamed so loudly he destroyed a tower

Fate manipulation: Lucifer ripped the pages of destiny's book. The book contains everything that is happening, everything that has happened and everything that will happen.

Causality manip (not limited) - In a house, if anyone tried to kill the hunted god within the house, the house would kill them instead (lucifers house)

Conceptual manipulation (scans) - Thirst, Honor, Fear, and Thrill of the hunt are all concepts of their names. Lucifer killed them while damaging the fabric of reality as a result since they act as a force of the world

Clairvoyance - knew what was going to happen before entering Sycorax's skull and knew a guy was going to kill himself being prescient

High Godly Regeneration: Lucifer deleted himself from Destiny's book and came back. The book contains your entire history. It contains everything that is happening, everything that will happen and everything that has happened already. Destiny of the endless, including his book, is an abstract idea, wave function, pattern etc. Destiny of the endless acts as the primal truth of the universe.

 

[Antvasima]

@Deagonx @Firestorm808 @Eficiente

What do you think about this?

 

[Eficiente]

The plan and anyone trying to escape it & failing means that at least certain things are predetermined to happen, if not necessarily all of them. I don't think this means anything, if they're needed in the plan, no form of immortality stops them from being killed because there is no telling what will happen next. Maybe things are set in motion to revive them, maybe they even get replaced. I think it's too vague, if we add this (which I can see happening), we need to outright state that we're extrapolating from what the info we have directly implies.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

First of all, Murder Mysteries isn't canon to the Sandman or Lucifer. While it shares similar concepts, its actually a short story in Gaiman's "Smoke and Mirrors" anthalogy.

I am not really sure what is being argued tbh. Death can't claim the Archangels as long as they have their powers. They would just keep on resurrecting. We see that with Michael. And even Lucifer says that:

What happens next is that.... I reinstate.... myself. And then I destroy the Basanos.

-Purgatorio
Dan Watters' Lucifer has a weird symbiotic relation with God. That could count I guess.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Reinstate doesn’t mean resurrect tho. Its talking about how Lucifer had to save himself from a limbo like state from the basanos and meleos just took care of the body

It means that he was going to restore himself back. That's it.

If the presence leaves creation, no one will have their immortality and they would die for good

If you mean Lucifer and Michael, then no. Lucifer was referring to Uriel and the Host. Lucifer and Michael were not going to be affected:

I don't have a crisis. I'm telling you this as a simple courtesy. Yahweh's name is written on every atom of his Creation. It's the glue that holds Reality together. And when its gone-- you'll be too. Along with everything else that lives here.

- The Widow

Nothing of Yahweh's. Nothing my Father made. My own Creation won't be touched. I will keep the border open for as long as I can- but only to mortals, of course. The rest of you will have to get by as best as you can.

- The Wolf beneath the Tree

Uriel: Why should this even concern you, Morningstar? It is Heaven's business. Leave Heaven to answer it.
Lucifer: Don't be dense, Uriel. Yggdrasil is one of the Beginning places. If Creation were a lens, that would be its focal point. I was prepared to sit out the end of my Father's Cosmos--
Elaine: You were prepared--?
Lucifer: -- But the conflagration Fenris intends might shake my own Realm, too. Stand away from the Tower.

- The Wolf beneath the Tree

The problem was Fenris rather than the Presence leaving for them. In fact, Lucifer states that Michael would have succeeded in normal circumstances so there is that too.

 

[Robo432343]

Lucifer can stay alive all he wants ONLY if the presence is there. even noema had a chance to kill him when Yahweh left

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Yes he is restoring himself back, not resurrect

Resurrection might not be the proper word but that's arguing over semantics. As long as they have their power they can reinstate themselves.

Lucifer and Michael were both going to be affected because Lucifer said, ‘death will sift over us like snow’ when Yahweh left creation.

You do realize the context to this right?

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Lucifer can stay alive all he wants ONLY if the presence is there. even noema had a chance to kill him when Yahweh left

You're ignoring all the context. You're basing this on your theory and ignoring Lucifer's own admittance. He was feigning weakness so that Noema would bring him to the perfect moment. And no Noema had no chance to kill him. Lucifer was leading her by the nose and the reason that she could pull those ***** was because Lucifer's own words to the Basanos prevented Lucifer from kill her. You do remember that right?

 

[Deleted member 2530]

It’s more like as long as they have the presence they can Because they are his power and essence. It’s also coz lucifer is an aspect of yahweh.

Nothing supports this. Lucifer and Michael specifically got weakened because of their journey to Yggdrasil and their battle. Unlike Michael, Lucifer doesn't have infinite power so he has to save some energy. He does so after Cestis is killed too. Its not a matter of Yhawch being in Creation or not. His power being leeched away is just something he feigned so that he could get close to Fenris. He was still strong enough to transport the doll to Yhaweh's space and scare away Noema after he is freed from the promise. Yeah, their powers can't affect the Titans but no other power could aside from theirs own.

Like I said, the whole reliant thing is more relevant for the Dan Watters' version of things.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

If thats the case, then are you okay with immortality type 5? (explained above)

I am not really good at these types. But it says that they can't be traditionally killed or do not exist which is kind of weird territory for me. Lucifer does tank the Demiurgos explosion which is said to "break or build" and there is the whole "distinct layers of death" of the Silkman. Maybe it counts for this.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here so far?

 

[Robo432343]

So what are the conclusions here so far?

Type 5 immortality but not type 8

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Please elaborate regarding the reasoning for this.

 

[Robo432343]

Type 5 immortality:
Yahweh: Immortal, Deathless, and Eternal. Death herself has no grasp over him because the concept of Death doesn't apply to him.

Lucifer is Yahweh’s Will and his tool alongside his other son Michael made for the business of Creation. Lucifer himself exists before Death and not only is he older but he is greater.

Not only that since the Beginning, Angels in the Silver City experimented with concepts such as Death.

Remember these Angels were experimenting with the blueprint of the Universe to come and the Endless exists as long as there is sentient life and however long the Universe is. Lucifer and Michael created that Universe. Death herself admits to this.


Angels are mere peers to Lucifer to reflect on and could destroy the entirety of the Heavenly Host. Even threaten to destroy Death.


He even withheld Death from his Creation if they kept their promise and later like how God did brings it back as punishment for not listening.


Now as for Death in this scenario. There are times when it was stated that Death matched Lucifer in Will.

(Vertigo Encyclopedia Vol.1 #2)

Now there is a little misconception about what this is saying.
I wanted to touch on Death's will being more than a match for his. That isn't speaking on power levels, it's speaking on function. I touched on this in another post but, Death via her function to existence scales to all Life and Death everywhere. She simply IS where they ARE. When Lucifer created death in his multiverse, Death of the Endless was given domain there. Her will is more than enough for his in the sense that while he is the shaper of all existence, Death is she who defines all existence.
She could win if Lucifer was bound to a set fate and she literally said it herself whether she would even have this chance again because as long as Yahweh exists, Lucifer is pretty much eternal.
(Lucifer Vol.1 #26)


Death states "Oh Come on. When am I going to get another chance? I mean here you are. Stuck at the bus stop until the next miracle rolls up."

Two things to take from this. Death's question heavily implied that she is uncertain if such a circumstance in which she could question Lucifer about such things will ever come again, which could mean that there is no foreseen point in the future where Lucifer enters her domain. This is important because Death apparently knows when all things are supposed to come to their end. And secondly, the next big miracle she referred to was Elaine who again, was en route to "rescue" Lucifer. This substantiates the fact that she KNEW Lucifer was not dying and again, had no claim on him.

Lucifer was never supposed to die in that scan, neither did he intend to, and Death was also aware of this.

Almost all beings are bound to inevitability. However not everyone is and as long as you can, it almost guarantees there isn't an end. Yahweh has is deathless and is every eternal and Lucifer matches him in everything. Not Al beings fall into inevitability of the True Death. Not everyone gets an afterlife thus they don't see what Death lays ahead even that of the conventional Death and Lucifer knew this because of the fact he saw it before even before the concept of the afterlife or even its Death.
(Lucifer Vol.3 #13)

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you, but I am not sure.

@Firestorm808 @Deagonx @Qawsedf234

What do you think?

 

[Robo432343]

I also found a new ability for lucifer

Silkman placed 7 layers of death around Lucifer and was unaffected. But what resistance is this? i was thinking resistance to death manip. He should also have immortality negation because he negated silkmans immortality

 

[Antvasima]

I think that seems uncontroversial to apply.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

resistance to probability manip - Lucifer tanks an assault from The Basanos. They attack Lucifer with infinite number of death possibilities which he ignores and continues to fight. However, he was eventually defeated with a different hax. You can argue that noema was still learning how to use her powers but this was still a very hard hax to break out of.

I will say that he has resistance to direct attacks for Fate Manipulation and Probability Manipulation.

pain tolerance?? - Removed a toxic cherub from his body by literally impaling himself

Being able to move with the Cherub inside him should be a feat for his willpower and pain tolerance. This should be regeneration or Resilient Immortality.

weak lucifer takes a slap from noema (idk what ability noema is using)

Noema was forcing him to bow while he defied with sheer force of will I guess.

invulnerability negation?? - Destroys some Quaima, who are stated to be invulnerable and are spirits

Nah. He couldn't harm them directly as stated by himself. He destroyed the soul anchored to them. Probably, Causality Manipulation too for destroying the souls by attacking the Quaima.

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @LordTracer @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Kulf_Boba @LephyrTheRevanchist @Gasper @Maverick_Zero_X @Lightning_XXI @Stefano4444 @Alonik @LuciferX @Zensum @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Hykuu @KingEzran @Dark-Carioca @Armorchompy

What do you think about this?

 

[Qawsedf234]

I can maybe look at this later

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Deagonx]

@Deagonx @Firestorm808 @Eficiente

What do you think about this?

I'm not clear on what's being argued for. The formatting is extremely bad, as posting full scans one after another makes it hard to follow, and it is not apparent which scans are being used to argue which point. The title is "more abilities" but the only ability I see mentioned is immortality. What is the argument for that, exactly? I'm not opposed, but the post itself makes it very hard to figure out what the argument is.

 

[Robo432343]

I'm not clear on what's being argued for. The formatting is extremely bad, as posting full scans one after another makes it hard to follow, and it is not apparent which scans are being used to argue which point. The title is "more abilities" but the only ability I see mentioned is immortality. What is the argument for that, exactly? I'm not opposed, but the post itself makes it very hard to figure out what the argument is.

i agree, i'll make everything into 1 post instead

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody help to clarify please?

 

[Antvasima]

i agree, i'll make everything into 1 post instead

Thank you.

 

[Gasper]

I think lucifer should also have some sort of nonexistent physiology only when hes in the void. the void is pretty much blank nothingness

Nah, that's just resistance to existence erasure

 

[Deagonx]

Nah, that's just resistance to existence erasure

To be honest, I think it's neither, unless we have good reason to believe that the default is that the void will erase your existence, which I think there's probably little to no evidence for.

 

[Antvasima]

Deagonx makes sense to me.

 

[Deagonx]

Btw what is the ability where you can interact with an abstract being?

There's not really a specific ability for that.

 

[Vasco]

I updated the post but there is still a lot to go through
Btw what is the ability where you can interact with an abstract being?

There's not really a specific ability for that.

Non-physical interaction.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

To be honest, I think it's neither, unless we have good reason to believe that the default is that the void will erase your existence, which I think there's probably little to no evidence for.

Erishad narrates that the Void was cackling with raw energy of negation while Lucifer says its not the same as non-existence.

Though I believe the argument isn't whether the Void erases but whether Lucifer became it.

I was thinking Lucifer should has all prior at a higher level in the void because of this statement by silkman

Not a higher level than he normally is tbh. He just learns to navigate the Void unlike Silkman and Berim who require the aid of the Barrowjane. I am not sure what the decision is regarding using Lucifer Vol 2(Too much contradiction and the author herself saying its not part of DC or DC related things) and Lucifer Vol 3(Still some contradictions but not enough to be that problematic).

 

[Robo432343]

Erishad narrates that the Void was cackling with raw energy of negation while Lucifer says its not the same as non-existence.

Though I believe the argument isn't whether the Void erases but whether Lucifer became it.

Not a higher level than he normally is tbh. He just learns to navigate the Void unlike Silkman and Berim who require the aid of the Barrowjane. I am not sure what the decision is regarding using Lucifer Vol 2(Too much contradiction and the author herself saying its not part of DC or DC related things) and Lucifer Vol 3(Still some contradictions but not enough to be that problematic).

yeah, i think there should be a 2018 lucifer key if there's so many contradictions

silkman did say that Lucifer must have had some power to have reached the void, considering its outside creation or smth

 

[Deleted member 2530]

yeah, i think there should be a 2018 lucifer key if there's so many contradictions

Probably. The depowered Section should be removed though. The abilities are vacant and the speed tiering makes no sense because he still had his wings an could navigate the Void when he processed the

silkman did say that Lucifer must have had some power to have reached the void, considering its outside creation or smth

It doesn't mean that he was stronger than his usual self though especially since he has given away his Morningstar powers to Mazikeen.

 

[Antvasima]

@Deagonx

What do you think should be done here?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I updated the post but there is still a lot to go through
Btw what is the ability where you can interact with an abstract being? Lucid we interacted with Michael who embodies power

That is Non-Physical Interaction.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Kulf_Boba @LephyrTheRevanchist @Maverick_Zero_X @Lightning_XXI @Stefano4444 @LuciferX @Vasco @Excel616

Would any of you be willing to help evaluate this please?

 

[Stefano4444]

Looking at the scans at first glance they seen more or less correct, so i agree with the upgrade.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Vasco]

Yahweh: Immortal, Deathless, and Eternal. Death herself has no grasp over him because the concept of Death doesn't apply to him.

Lucifer is Yahweh’s Will and his tool alongside his other son Michael made for the business of Creation. Lucifer himself exists before Death and not only is he older but he is greater.

(Lucifer Vol.1 #2)

Remember these Angels were experimenting with the blueprint of the Universe to come and the Endless exists as long as there is sentient life and however long the Universe is. Lucifer and Michael created that Universe. Death herself admits to this.

(Lucifer Vol.1 #26)

Angels are mere peers to Lucifer to reflect on and could destroy the entirety of the Heavenly Host. Even threaten to destroy Death.

(Lucifer Vol.1 #26)

He even withheld Death from his Creation if they kept their promise and later like how God did brings it back as punishment for not listening.

(Lucifer Vol.1 #16)

She could kill lucifer if he was bound to a set fate and she literally said it herself whether she would even have this chance again because as long as Yahweh exists, Lucifer is pretty much eternal.

(Lucifer Vol.1 #26)

(Lucifer Vol.3 #13)

(Lucifer Vol.1 #25)

The other hax

resistance to probability manip - Lucifer tanks an assault from The Basanos. They attack Lucifer with infinite number of death possibilities which he ignores and continues to fight. However, he was eventually defeated with a different hax. You can argue that noema was still learning how to use her powers but this was still a very hard hax to break out of.

Resistance to attack reflection - Ignores the mark of Cain which is given by god. it reflects the damage done 7 fold
7 fold part

pain tolerance, resilient immortality - Removed a toxic cherub from his body by literally impaling himself

weak lucifer takes a slap from noema (idk what ability noema is using)

cloth manip - creates a suit

healing - Heals mazikeen

phasing - phases through a dude

causality manip - Destroys some Quaima, who are stated to be invulnerable and are spirits. also

immunity to fire

social influencing - manipulated misubi into killing herself who was sent to kill lucifer

non physical interaction - the scans are on his profile

immortality negation - erased silkman

resistance to death manip - was unaffected by 7 layers of death

I can agree for immortality type 5 since he didn't really tank any death manipulation attack but death seems to have no claim on him even he intended it to happen, so immortality type 5 is fine by me.

resistance to probability manip - Lucifer tanks an assault from The Basanos. They attack Lucifer with infinite number of death possibilities which he ignores and continues to fight. However, he was eventually defeated with a different hax. You can argue that noema was still learning how to use her powers but this was still a very hard hax to break out of.

Scan didn't say "infinite" just shows possible deaths that could happen which he ignored.
Still resistance to probability manipulation but ask @Deagonx , I just skeptical on what to call such a manipulation to ignore possible death outcomes.

Resistance to attack reflection - Ignores the mark of Cain which is given by god. it reflects the damage done 7 fold
7 fold part

It said only when cain dies so I disagree since lucifer didn't kill him in the scan.

pain tolerance, resilient immortality - Removed a toxic cherub from his body by literally impaling himself

Agree to immortality type 2.

weak lucifer takes a slap from noema (idk what ability noema is using)

He resisted it before Elaine stepped in but I'd say resistance to body puppetry since she told him to bow which he resisted and while "weak" like you claim but could you send the scans?

cloth manip - creates a suit

Agree.

healing - Heals mazikeen

I don't see any healing more like resurrection.

phasing - phases through a dude

Agree.

causality manip - Destroys some Quaima, who are stated to be invulnerable and are spirits. also

Seems more like durability negation and NPI.

mmunity to fire

This is obvious, Agree.

social influencing - manipulated misubi into killing herself who was sent to kill lucifer

Agree.

immortality negation - erased silkman

Can you send scans of silkman immortality?

resistance to death manip - was unaffected by 7 layers of death

Agree.