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Addressing Roshi's Feat

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LordTracer said:
I’m referring to this.
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Huh! I was not aware of this calc. Not really sure how speed was calculated by free falling rock. The calc is probably missing relevant scans. Damage posted a query. If that gets accepted, we can use that for Piccolo's speed.
 
Huh... according to that calculation you linked, the manga's timeframe is actually smaller than the anime.

Instead, we would have:
Piccolo (23rd Budokai / Early Saiyan Saga) - Relativisitic+ (61% SoL),
Son Goku (Post-King Kai) - At least Relativisitic+, FTL with Kaio-Ken (At least 122% - 244% SoL)
Son Goku (Namek Saga) - FTL, FTL+ with Kaio-Ken x4 and above.
Son Goku (Frieza Saga) - FTL+ base*(Do we assume KKx10 Goku Namek Saga is slower than Post-Zenkai Goku?), Massively FTL with Kaio-Kenx10 and higher.
Son Goku (Frieza Saga, if the former isn't accepted since KKx10 Goku is never actually shown) - FTL in base, FTL+ with Kaio-Kenx4 and above.

EDIT: Seems there is some confusion, Anime Timeframe is 42% SoL, I brought up 84% for Goku with Kaio-Ken.
 
If we go from when Piccolo starts firing the beam at the Moon (at 00:28:47) to when he stops and the Moon starts being affected (at 00:32:02), since we don't actually see when the beam hits the surface of the Moon, then we could gave a timeframe of about 4 seconds, which gives us a speed of 96,100,000 m/s or 32% the Speed of Light.
 
Damage3245 said:
If we go from when Piccolo starts firing the beam at the Moon (at 00:28:47) to when he stops and the Moon starts being affected (at 00:32:02), since we don't actually see when the beam hits the surface of the Moon, then we could gave a timeframe of about 4 seconds, which gives us a speed of 96,100,000 m/s or 32% the Speed of Light.
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Well, that would make Vegeta Arc Goku Rel, Rel+ with Kaioken (up to x3), FTL with Kaioken x4.
 
Damage:

Thank you. Would you be willing to place the speed and energy calculations for these two feats in a blog post please?
 
I mean, if you've got the milliseconds there, might as well use them. (3.55 seconds)

So its specifically 36.118883998% of SoL, which pushes Saiyan Saga Goku with KKx3 into FTL
 
SomebodyData said:
I mean, if you've got the milliseconds there, might as well use them. (3.55 seconds)

So its specifically 36.118883998% of SoL, which pushes Saiyan Saga Goku with KKx3 into FTL
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That would also make Namek Saga Goku FTL (3.61188839980758c) if we use the statement of his strength increasing tenfold following the gravity training.
 
@SomebodyData Agreed, we shouldn't include the beam speed in the calc since it had not yet hit the moon, only the timeframe it took for the moon to disperse after impact, because clearly it dispersed, as its not visible, and wasn't just turned to gas, otherwise we would have seen the gas still in the shape of the moon, because even dispersing the gas would require the same joules of energy since the mass wouldn't change. Not to mention almost every other planet busting ki attack in DB has been able to use KE formula based on dispersal so it would be inconsistent to assume Roshis is not like the others.

Kep recommended 20 sec as an estimate for the dispersal, the anime from the point we see it detonate to when they notice Goku has reverted, indicating the moon was gone prior is 40 sec. Using either comes out to 5-B as I outlined above so if were going for accuracy we should definitely use kinetic energy since we have an approximate timeframe, mass and distance.

For the record the 5-B Roshi calc uses the time it takes for the moons matter to leave the spot the moon was at and the edge of the panel, so it doesn't rely on matter reaching earth.

So 5-B and Relativistic Sounds the most accurate for Max power Roshi and above.
 
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LordTracer said:
Could you link that calc?
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Sure. I posted it earlier but I'll repost here.

Also honestly Roshis feat at 13 sec which is accurate for anime timeframe is 0.0986 times the speed of light, so less than 1.4% faster and he hits it, so he should probably just be relativistic since he is virtually there already and he had juice left in the tank after the attack, and anybody superior would logically be relativistic even if you didn't give him the 1.4%. And I mean the moon can be as much as 405,696 km away from the Earth depending on time of year, so you cold even argue the feat might already be in relativistic level since those above numbers are from its average distance.

Although if we want to be more accurate with Roshi's moon buster and use speed of dispersion it would be higher. Kep actually did that out using 20 seconds as a timeframe for me a while back for dispersion as an estimate for the manga. It comes out as 5-B

vsbattles.fandom.com

Kepekley23

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

In the show they notice Goku is gone after reverting when the moon is gone, thus the moon would logically have been dispersed before the time they notice this. From the point we see the attack hit and begin to explode on the moon in a omnidirectional blast till they notice Goku is "gone" and Krillin runs toward the ring yelling his name 40 seconds lapses from 1:44-2:24

If we replace Keps velocity with one that disperses over 40 seconds we get 0.5*7.34767309e+22*130,275^2 = 6.23508E+32 J Or 5-B still using anime timeframe.



So if we go with Keps suggestion on a manga timeframe, or use the anime timeframe, we actually get 5-B, which is consistent for DBZ Piccolos anime timeframe of 4 Sec which will result in 5-A based on previous calcs.

Now some people still may argue for using vaporization, but that really doesn't work since if the matter were not dispersed you would still see all the gas created from vaporization where the moon was still, but there is nothing there in anime and manga, and to disperse the gas you'd still need to move the same mass at that speed. Also we know in DB virtually every celestial body that is destroyed by a ki blast has been depicted as a violent omnidirectional explosion, from Frieza blowing up Planet Vegeta and Namek, to Buu destroying earth in both anime and manga. So it would be inconsistent if Roshi's attack only vaporized the moon and didn't apply for using kinetic energy tbh.

So if we want to iron out the speed and most accurate calculation for his feat, I vote for using the speed above from the anime since we can get an actual timeframe that way, and the timeframe for the moons dispersal from the anime, or Keps suggestion of 20 sec as a estimate for a more accurate AP.

So 5-B Max power Roshi with relativistic speed honestly is where I think he realistically stands after ironing out the speed and kinetic energy calc.
 
I think we probably should apply what has been discussed and accepted so far (5-C Roshi and the new scaling that creates), then save the speed (and possibly the 5-B discussion?) for another thread? I think it'd be better to kind of hit the reset button and start discussing the newer topics in a more focused manner in that new thread.

(Sorry for commenting again lol)
 
Yeah, for now, let's just go with the accepted. BTW, most of the supporters agreed with flat out 5-C, rather than a possibly/likely, right?
 
Even though 5-B is the most accurate analysis, simply accepting 5-C and the feat itself as not being an outlier is a huge step forward, so id be fine with just applying 5-C for now, and discussing 5-B later since this thread was originally made to determine that. But don't take this as me accepting 5-C as the more accurate option, there's still more discussion to be had in that regard.
 
Has anybody committed to calculating the two Moon-busting feats yet?

Or should we just apply 5-C for now and handle that later?
 
The_real_cal_howard said:
Your pushing it and losing supporters going for 5-B.
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Why though? Assuming Kep's calc is fine, idk how arguing for potentially a more accurate rating would suddenly be "pushing it and losing supporters". If the feat is 5-B, it's 5-B. It doesn't change the main conclusion that was reached in this thread about the feat not being an outlier. Now that we aren't treating it as an outlier, we should figure out the most accurate actual yield of the feat.

Antvasima said:
Or should we just apply 5-C for now and handle that later?
Click to expand...
We should absolutely cover all bases in this thread only. And that includes finding an appropriate calc for destruction if there is one, and speed ratings too. I don't see the need of making a new thread just to discuss the same thing there instead of here.

Currently, we need the opinion of a calc group member on what SSJRyu brought up and the calc Kep had made.
 
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AKM sama said:
We should absolutely cover all bases in this thread only. And that includes finding an appropriate calc for destruction if there is one, and speed ratings too. I don't see the need of making a new thread just to discuss the same thing there instead of here.

Currently, we need the opinion of a calc group member on what SSJRyu brought up and the calc Kep had made.
Click to expand...
Okay.

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Mr._Bambu @Therefir @Ugarik @DMUA @Damage3245 @KGiffoni @Dargoo_Faust @TheRustyOne @DemonGodMitchAubin @Jasonsith @Wokistan

Would any of you be willing to help us out? We would appreciate it.
 
This calculation of using KE to destroy the moon has already been suggested by Piccolo's feat as well, and was rejected. I very much doubt that this time it will be accepted.
 
LIFE_OF_KING said:
This calculation of using KE to destroy the moon has already been suggested by Piccolo's feat as well, and was rejected. I very much doubt that this time it will be accepted.
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That's because we don't see fragments flying in Piccolo's feat, only the moon getting lighted up.

However, in Roshi's feat, we clearly see the moon being blasted to like, super tiny, almost-unrecognizeable fragments. Chapter 51 of the OG manga.
 
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The fragmentation does not seem to have spread as far, and it seems that most of the moon has been completely erased
 
LIFE_OF_KING said:
The fragmentation does not seem to have spread as far, and it seems that most of the moon has been completely erased
Click to expand...
Even then, like SSJRyu said, to disperse the gas would require the same amount of energy since the mass remains the exact same. Plus, there's no gaseous clouds remaining in the aftermath either. And AFAIK there was also the question of not being able to properly figure out a timeframe for Piccolo's feat. That doesn't exist in Roshi's case with more usable assumptions existing for him, and where even after almost all of the moon is erased, some faint fragments still remain (Prolly to just dramatize the severity of the attack).

EDIT: Saw the picture.
 
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I cannot view the image provided above, but if this is of any reference value looks like Roshi (at pre DBZ era) has one legit moon blasting attack that could only be used once in a while so that would be having his own level (like "one yield casually, moon busting with Kamehameha") that may scale to Piccolo's standard AP and not even to Roshi's standard key phases (until at DBS when he can mingle with stellar busters).
 
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So we're just gonna talk about it here?

Well, the issues I have with the calc:
  1. We don't use the KE formula anymore for manga panels in this manner judging by Piccolo's page lacking his own calc.
  2. If the moon did mostly turn to gas, it would instantly disperse since the GBE is no longer there to hold it all together.
  3. The idea that the moon's full mass (As the calculation entails) was:
    1. Not mostly burnt up as do most materials nearing the Earth's atmosphere
    2. Or mostly destroyed in Roshi's beam, as do most ki attacks do when hitting rock or land
    3. Or simply reduced to rubble to small to see from the tournament
      Seems a bit pushing it.
  4. The panels KLOL linked also show that most of the mass was indeed destroyed, with only rubble left at best.
    Also should probably stop sharing illegal links here.
 
SomebodyData said:
So we're just gonna talk about it here?

Well, the issues I have with the calc:
  1. We don't use the KE formula anymore for manga panels in this manner judging by Piccolo's page lacking his own calc.
Click to expand...
Actually that's not how the timeframe for the debris getting scattered in the explosion was calc'd in the OG 5-B calc. A weird way of rocks falling from Gohan's rampage was used which was considered dubious since the rocks were falling before Piccolo's beam hit the moon
 
Yes, it is much better if you upload the relevant scans to Imgur or similar, and then link to them instead. We do not want to get in any legal trouble.
 
LordTracer said:
Wasn’t it agreed upon earlier to use the anime timeframe?
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For Roshi? Yes, since the destruction methods are borderline identical for both anime and manga.

For Piccolo, no, I don't think so, since the destruction method in the anime is apparently different from the manga (Anime shows moon debris being blasted to bits at high speed, manga doesn't).

At least, this applies to the moon being blasted at high speed. The actual timeframe it takes for the beams of Piccolo and Roshi to reach the moon from Earth is fine, however.

Though this begs another question, in the case of Piccolo. Do we use the OG DBZ anime or do we use Kai?

EDIT: NVM, both OG DBZ anime and DB Kai show Piccolo's beam reach the moon from the earth within 3-ish seconds (3.05 for DBZ OG and 3.17 for kai, and yes, I used watchframebyframe).
 
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Also it seems that Damage only calculated Piccolo's beam speed and not Roshi's (Apparently SSJRyu did it a few comments above for Roshi)
 
Actually, you know what, never mind, Kai and the OG DBZ anime show Piccolo's beam to travel from the Earth to the moon within the same timeframe of 3-ish seconds.
 
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