Addressing Roshi's Feat

[Antvasima]

I thought that we were looking for the timeframe for Piccolo's feat, and that we already have a useable calculation for what Roshi did.

 

[AKM sama]

If you're referring to the previous calc that was posted here, it was about the AP. A point of contention in that was the method of destruction, which was also debated in a previous thread. We don't know whether it should just be baseline 5-C or whether to assume it was vaporized or exploded since the feat isn't shown in the manga, and ByAsura had some arguments regarding this in the previous thread.

Currently, the point of discussion is about the speed and whether to assume a reasonable low-end from the manga or go with the anime scene, as Ryu pointed out.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[LordTracer]

Currently, the point of discussion is about the speed and whether to assume a reasonable low-end from the manga or go with the anime scene, as Ryu pointed out.

Wouldn’t using the anime timeframe work better since it’s not an assumption?

 

[Antvasima]

@Damage3245 @KGiffoni @Dargoo_Faust @TheRustyOne @DemonGodMitchAubin

Would any of you be willing to help us out with information regarding if it is acceptable to calculate manga Piccolo destroying the Dragon Ball Moon based on the anime timeframe, if the feat largely happened the same way in both continuities?

From what I remember, I think that it is acceptable.

We also likely need somebody to calculate it.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Using the anime timeframe is 100% ok to use in my mind, if it's the same feat and same scene, then it should be absolutely usable, IMO, that's much better than assuming a random timeframe based on manga panels

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the information.

 

[SomebodyData]

Assuming the timeframe Zamas gave us is correct, Roshi's feat is x0.09878649904 the speed of light, or the peak of Sub-Relativisitic+ bordering on Relativistic. At least, that's if I did the math correctly.

 

[00potato]

Ok, so we have the stats layed down, can we apply them, most people agree.
We have only what 2 detractors?

 

[Damage3245]

Well, half the people in favor seem to be fine with At least 7-B, possibly 5-C, as well.

 

[LordTracer]

Uh, there’s a lot less than half on the side in favor lol. And overall, there’s eight in favor of straight 5-C and six in favor of ‘At least 7-B, possibly 5-C.’

 

[Damage3245]

We should probably also get an update from some of the neutral folks, see if there's any changed minds.

Also, I should clarify that I think it should fine for Max Power Roshi to be listed as 5-C, but the likes of King Piccolo who has no 5-C feat should be rated as "At least 7-B, possible/likely 5-C".

Because we know for a fact that Piccolo is at least 7-B, but we don't know for a fact that he is 5-C. It isn't explicitly stated that the reason why Max Power Roshi couldn't kill him is because his AP wouldn't be enough.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I'm really sorry to interject, I know it's a staff only thread, but I just wanted to say that in all honesty......."At least 7-B, likely/possibly 5-C" really doesn't even make sense.
The whole point of this thread was to determine whether Roshi's 5-C feat was an outlier or not, and whether it would be possible to construct a suitable scaling chain using said feat.
It seems that most people agree that it is not an outlier and that it is possible to construct a suitable scaling chain with it, so the "safe middle ground" stuff seems like either unnecessary downplay or just hiding an outlier.
The feat is either usable, or not. I don't think the compromise makes sense.

For what it's worth though, I'm in agreement with 5-C Roshi.

Again, sorry for butting in, it'll probably be my first and last comment on this thread.

 

[Damage3245]

@UchihaSlayer96; I updated my post with a clarification on my position.

 

[00potato]

If Piccolo couldn’t hurt him via being 7-B.. why would he be considered unbeatable to Roshi?

Besides that this looks good and should be added. (Probably Straight 5-C.)

 

[ProudLearner]

I know I am not a staff but here is my Dragon Ball Part 1 and some of 2 scaling chain:

Master Roshi

AP: Unknown, 5-C with Max Power Mode Kamehameha | Possibly 5-C in Base| 5-C in Base |

Tien Shinhan

AP: Possibly 5-C, higher with Kikoho | Possibly 5-C | At Least 5-C, higher with Kikoho |

Son Goku (Dragon Ball)

AP: 9-B, High 8-C as an Oozaru | At least 9-B, High 8-C as an Oozaru | High 8-C | At least High 8-C | Likely 5-C | 5-C, after unlocking potential | At Least 5-C, higher with Super Kamehameha

Tao Pai Pai

AP: At least High 8-C | Unknown, higher with Super Dodon Wave

King Piccolo

AP: 5-C | 5-C

Piccolo

AP: At Least 5-C | At Least 5-C, higher with Special Beam Cannon |

Kami

AP: 5-C

Mr. Popo

Ap: Unknown

Yajirobe

AP: Unknown | 5-C, higher with his katana

Tambourine

AP: Unknown

Cymbal

AP: Unknown

Drum

AP: Unknown

Master Shen

AP: Unknown, higher with Kikoho

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Ap and Speed go pretty much hand in hand with each other, so we'd have to finish the speed discussion first before applying everything.

Just giving a tiny reminder of this so I can bring up something.

This might’ve already been answered and I just forgot, but would any of the speed ratings from Roshis feat be an outlier compared to beginning of Z?

 

[00potato]

No?
This is a bit under Relativistic and applies to the god tiers of DB and early DBZ.
Raditz is straight-up Rel in his profile.
The scaling is arguably better now.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay thanks, never mind.

 

[00potato]

Ok so with him in agreement I think we can add this? Probably straight up 5-C, maybe at worst a likely 5-C. Sub Rel or likely sub rel as well.
Any volunteers?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Some of those keys are redundant. You don't say stuff like, likely 5-C, 5-C when unlocking potiential. You say Likely 5-C, higher after unlocking potential for example.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Damage3245 UchihaSlayer just wanted to point out that this is DB, it's not like Roshi saying he can't beat KP means anything other than AP. Honestly, I also think it's a pretty big stretch to assume Roshi would be able to kill King Piccolo through sheer AP, much less after he got his youth restored and after there are multiple statements putting Tien and Goku above Roshi too.

 

[ProudLearner]

Some of those keys are redundant. You don't say stuff like, likely 5-C, 5-C when unlocking potiential. You say Likely 5-C, higher after unlocking potential for example.

I did not write like that: likely 5-C, 5-C when unlocking potiential
I wrote it like this: Likely 5-C, 5-C after unlocking potential.
I have fixed it now I meant to put a vertical bar.

Actually, not all those keys are redundant, Medeus. Some of those scale to 22nd Budokai Goku such as Yajirobe and Tambourine. I put those unknown since they have nothing to scale off unless you think the former are Possibly Moon Level. The same reasoning with Drum.

Master Shen is comparable to Roshi that's what the AP description says. I put him Unknown since Master Roshi power is not consistent at the beginning and giving Shen Moon Level makes no sense.

Tao Pai Pai Unknown, Likely 7-B, with Super Dodon Wave to Unknown, higher with Super Dodon Wave. He currently scales to 7-B King Piccolo city level attack which makes no sense since Ki control and AoE are a thing. King Piccolo scales to 5-C Roshi making that that 7-B obsolete. Unless you want Super Dodon Wave to be Moon Level.

Mr. Popo trained the Z fighters but how does he scale to Moon Level Roshi in Z?

If we are going fix the scaling for five characters without looking if that affects other characters during 22nd Budokai and beyond. Then, you guys need to do revised it on this thread since missing the characters that I mentioned above will result in other CRTs. Why not just fix all of it in one thread. I am trying to avoid unnecessary upgrades.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Straight 5-C makes the most sense. Piccolo is clearly stronger than Roshi by the narrative, hence why he needs to resort to a hax sealing move like Mafuba and felt he had no chance otherwise.

Also honestly Roshis feat at 13 sec which is accurate for anime timeframe is 0.0986 times the speed of light, so less than 1.4% faster and he hits it, so he should probably just be relativistic since he is virtually there already and he had juice left in the tank after the attack, and anybody superior would logically be relativistic even if you didn't give him the 1.4%. And I mean the moon can be as much as 405,696 km away from the Earth depending on time of year, so you cold even argue the feat might already be in relativistic level since those above numbers are from its average distance.

Although if we want to be more accurate with Roshi's moon buster and use speed of dispersion it would be higher. Kep actually did that out using 20 seconds as a timeframe for me a while back for dispersion as an estimate for the manga. It comes out as 5-B

Kepekley23

vsbattles.fandom.com

In the show they notice Goku is gone after reverting when the moon is gone, thus the moon would logically have been dispersed before the time they notice this. From the point we see the attack hit and begin to explode on the moon in a omnidirectional blast till they notice Goku is "gone" and Krillin runs toward the ring yelling his name 40 seconds lapses from 1:44-2:24

If we replace Keps velocity with one that disperses over 40 seconds we get 0.5*7.34767309e+22*130,275^2 = 6.23508E+32 J Or 5-B still using anime timeframe.



So if we go with Keps suggestion on a manga timeframe, or use the anime timeframe, we actually get 5-B, which is consistent for DBZ Piccolos anime timeframe of 4 Sec which will result in 5-A based on previous calcs.

Now some people still may argue for using vaporization, but that really doesn't work since if the matter were not dispersed you would still see all the gas created from vaporization where the moon was still, but there is nothing there in anime and manga, and to disperse the gas you'd still need to move the same mass at that speed. Also we know in DB virtually every celestial body that is destroyed by a ki blast has been depicted as a violent omnidirectional explosion, from Frieza blowing up Planet Vegeta and Namek, to Buu destroying earth in both anime and manga. So it would be inconsistent if Roshi's attack only vaporized the moon and didn't apply for using kinetic energy tbh.

So if we want to iron out the speed and most accurate calculation for his feat, I vote for using the speed above from the anime since we can get an actual timeframe that way, and the timeframe for the moons dispersal from the anime, or Keps suggestion of 20 sec as a estimate for a more accurate AP.

So 5-B Max power Roshi with relativistic speed honestly is where I think he realistically stands after ironing out the speed and kinetic energy calc.

 

[SomebodyData]

@SSJRyu the beam's speed wouldn't translate to the KE of the moon's shrapnel, assuming it even left any rocks around (It looks more like Roshi just annihilated the moon rather than sending moon rocks hurling everywhere).

 

[Antvasima]

We preferably need to get something done here soon.

 

[ElixirBlue]

(It looks more like Roshi just annihilated the moon rather than sending moon rocks hurling everywhere).

Didn't the manga show little pebbles falling from the sky on Krillin's head? Maybe it just hurl pebbles everywhere.

 

[Deako97]

Didn't the manga show little pebbles falling from the sky on Krillin's head? Maybe it just hurl pebbles everywhere.

Yeh i find that odd that pebble fell on krillin head.

 

[AKM sama]

Didn't the manga show little pebbles falling from the sky on Krillin's head? Maybe it just hurl pebbles everywhere.

The entire stadium floor and building was destroyed so it was most likely due to that.

I don't mind using the anime timeframes for Roshi and Piccolo btw.

 

[SunDaGamer]

I think it would be best to make another thread summarising the arguments from this thread and all the developments so it's easier to see all the information in one go rather than a back and forth

 

[SomebodyData]

Well if we use the anime timeframe for Piccolo's feat, that would make Saiyan Saga Goku with Kaio-Ken Relativistic+ (84% SoL), FTL starting at KKx3. Namek Saga Goku (Who can get up to KKx10 if I remember correctly) would be FTL to FTL+.

 

[Antvasima]

I think it would be best to make another thread summarising the arguments from this thread and all the developments so it's easier to see all the information in one go rather than a back and forth

What do the rest of you think of this idea? It might be considerably more efficient.

 

[00potato]

No, we don’t need two threads for a discussion that is pretty much over at this point. We have overwhelming support, and the scaling seems cleared up.

 

[LordTracer]

At this point, what else is necessary beyond getting Piccolo’s feat calced (and maybe recalcing Roshi’s with the anime timeframe)?

 

[00potato]

Wasn’t Piccolo’s feat calced already (and accepted too.)

 

[LordTracer]

Wasn’t Piccolo’s feat calced already (and accepted too.)

There’s a Rel+ calc for him, but it didn’t use the anime timeframe and didn’t include the AP for actually blowing up the moon.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

No the piccolo feat was calced at REL. The Anime timeframe is REL+

 

[LordTracer]

I’m referring to this.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Oh ok. Anime timeframe is 84% so let’s just use that.

 

[LordTracer]

We just need a calc group member to calc one or both feats with the anime timeframes, and that should be all that’s left to discuss.