Addressing Roshi's Feat

[SSJRyu1]

It was originally staff only, a few regulars asked staff if they could join the discussion however.

 

[Antvasima]

This is not currently a staff only discussion. But given that it is about a controversial subject, regular members should only comment if they have something genuinely important to say, that does not derail or cause chaos.

It is probably best if they ask for permission first as well.

 

[KLOL506]

IIRC some of the calc group members (Specifically Bambu) have a hard-on hate for HST and DB related calcs so...

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The only thing I have left to say here about this is that anything related to 5-B should be saved for a fresh new thread specifically regarding it.

5-C by itself has been huge red meat for people that’s spanned several pages here’ and has been controversial for quite a long time. We just got to the point where we no longer treat it as an outlier, and already 10 seconds later, we’re trying to stack an even bigger upgrade on top of that real quickly? All because it’s related to the feat? That needs it’s own to thread discuss. This threads original goal was to decide on 5-C not being an outlier, not determining a higher end version of the feat, which as someone pointed above, could even become an outlier again because of much higher people are making the feat climb.

And if we really are to keep this discussion in this thread, than every single person who agreed with 5-C needs to come back and give a re-evaluation on, what it seems to be now, 5-B.

I’m sorry, and I genuinely don’t mean to be disrespectful, but that should be at least a given so that we aren’t just shoehorning in an even bigger controversial upgrade all because “it’s on topic”.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Why though? Assuming Kep's calc is fine, idk how arguing for potentially a more accurate rating would suddenly be "pushing it and losing supporters". If the feat is 5-B, it's 5-B. It doesn't change the main conclusion that was reached in this thread about the feat not being an outlier. Now that we aren't treating it as an outlier, we should figure out the most accurate actual yield of the feat.


We should absolutely cover all bases in this thread only. And that includes finding an appropriate calc for destruction if there is one, and speed ratings too. I don't see the need of making a new thread just to discuss the same thing there instead of here.

Currently, we need the opinion of a calc group member on what SSJRyu brought up and the calc Kep had made.

@ProfessorKukui4Life

Pretty much this. I don't see a reason to do a separate thread either. Might as well get the best rating while people are engaged here. The OP even said he is good with using 5-B and wrapping up.

 

[Rikimarox2]

I'm all in for 5-B as well.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@ProfessorKukui4Life

Pretty much this. I don't see a reason to do a separate thread either. Might as well get the best rating while people are engaged here. The OP even said he is good with using 5-B and wrapping up.

I accounted for that as well:

And if we really are to keep this discussion in this thread, than every single person who agreed with 5-C needs to come back and give a re-evaluation on, what it seems to be now, 5-B.

I’m sorry, and I genuinely don’t mean to be disrespectful, but that should be at least a given so that we aren’t just shoehorning in an even bigger controversial upgrade all because “it’s on topic”.

 

[KLOL506]

Very well then, I also agree with 5-B for the god-tiers, if the calc gets accepted.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Personally and honestly, im not 100% instantly opposed just because it’s a bigger result than before.

But as someone above put it, the higher a feat climbs, the chances of it being an outlier also climbs. So we should try and give new points as to how it fits into Saiyan Saga feats without it crashing on itself.

 

[KLOL506]

Personally and honestly, im not 100% instantly opposed just because it’s a bigger result than before.

But as someone above put it, the higher a feat climbs, the chances of it being an outlier also climbs. So we should try and give new points as to how it fits into Saiyan Saga feats without it crashing on itself.

I did some rough work in my mind regarding the Piccolo Moonbust calc using anime timeframes and assuming a safer timeframe than what Kep anticipated, both in OG and Kai the beam takes 3 seconds to reach the moon from the earth (Relativistic speed), and in both instances it takes 13 seconds for all the debris to fully disperse and turn into moondust, and using those values...

I GET 5-B Piccolo moonbust.

Do you want me to type out a rough draft of it?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Also, technically, Vegeta only said he'd destroy the planet, and turn it to ash. He never implied that his full power was baseline planet level or anything.

I know this will surely come up again, so I'd like to point out once again that these earlier feats being 5-B does not contradict Vegeta's statements in the Saiyan Saga because he never implied or stated that his full power was only barely baseline 5-B.
So him potentially scaling above other 5-B feats (assuming the calcs are accepted ofc) will NOT cause inconsistencies later down the road.

Again, I'm not necessarily saying the Roshi and Piccolo feats are 5-B (personally I don't view them as such in my own headcanon), but simply offering you guys the fact that in case a legitimate calc places them at that level, we can certainly create consistent scaling using them.

 

[KLOL506]

I know this will surely come up again, so I'd like to point out once again that these earlier feats being 5-B does not contradict Vegeta's statements in the Saiyan Saga because he never implied or stated that his full power was only barely baseline 5-B.
So him potentially scaling above other 5-B feats (assuming the calcs are accepted ofc) will NOT cause inconsistencies later down the road.

Again, I'm not necessarily saying the Roshi and Piccolo feats are 5-B (personally I don't view them as such in my own headcanon), but simply offering you guys the fact that in case a legitimate calc places them at that level, we can certainly create consistent scaling using them.

Yeah, we already know, and like we already stressed enough, this won't scale to anyone other than MAX Power Roshi the OG god-tiers of Dragon Ball (Namely, King Piccolo, Piccolo Jr. and 23rd Budokai Goku) and BoG Saiyan Saga characters (Then again they'll scale to Piccolo's moonbust).

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I know this will surely come up again, so I'd like to point out once again that these earlier feats being 5-B does not contradict Vegeta's statements in the Saiyan Saga because he never implied or stated that his full power was only barely baseline 5-B.
So him potentially scaling above other 5-B feats (assuming the calcs are accepted ofc) will NOT cause inconsistencies later down the road.

Theres more to something being an outlier than not using the 100% epitome of your full power. While I’m not saying that’s the case for Vegeta (it isn’t), at the same time this certainly wasn’t a casual feat for him and he was clearly exerting himself by quite a lot.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I did some rough work in my mind regarding the Piccolo Moonbust calc using anime timeframes and assuming a safer timeframe than what Kep anticipated, both in OG and Kai the beam takes 3 seconds to reach the moon from the earth (Relativistic speed), and in both instances it takes 13 seconds for all the debris to fully disperse and turn into moondust, and using those values...

I GET 5-B Piccolo moonbust.

Do you want me to type out a rough draft of it?

I see. Shouldn’t this get evaluated by a calc group member tho?

 

[KLOL506]

I see. Shouldn’t this get evaluated by a calc group member tho?

Haven't made the calc and put it into a blog yet (The materials are on my PC, just waiting for the Roshi stuff to be finished first), but it will get higher into 5-B than Roshi's moon bust, which really isn't surprising considering the scaling chain.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Uh....4-B?

 

[SomebodyData]

Haven't made the calc and put it into a blog yet (The materials are on my PC, just waiting for the Roshi stuff to be finished first), but it will get higher into 4-B than Roshi's moon bust, which really isn't surprising considering the scaling chain.

Cell BTFO

 

[KLOL506]

Sorry, it's a typo, I meant 5-B

 

[KLOL506]

Cell BTFO

Ha, you wish

 

[Antvasima]

KLOL506:

A calculation for Piccolo's Moon busting placed in a blog post would also be very useful, yes.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Sorry for not asking for permission, but when it comes to the characters that scale, they are Max Power Roshi, 22nd Budokai Goku and Tien (maybe Krillin and Yamcha, but I'm not sure), possibly Tambourine and Yajirobe, Divine Water Goku, Drum, King Piccolo (old and young), Popo, Kami, 23rd Budokai Goku, Krillin, Yamcha, and Tien, and finally Piccolo Jr (we also have to make sure to scale this to the anime only or non-canon characters that scale).

 

[KLOL506]

Sorry for not asking for permission, but when it comes to the characters that scale, they are Max Power Roshi, 22nd Budokai Goku and Tien (maybe Krillin and Yamcha, but I'm not sure), possibly Tambourine and Yajirobe, Divine Water Goku, Drum, King Piccolo (old and young), Popo, Kami, 23rd Budokai Goku, Krillin, Yamcha, and Tien, and finally Piccolo Jr (we also have to make sure to scale this to the anime only or non-canon characters that scale).

No idea about Tien, Popo and post-Divine Water Goku but Yamcha, Yajirobe, Krillin and King Piccolo's sons (As in, Drum, Tambourine) should definitely not scale, at least not until the Saiyan Saga kicks in.

Only ones that should definitively scale are MAX Power Roshi, King Piccolo, Piccolo Jr, 23rd Budokai Goku, and possibly Kami.

 

[LordTracer]

If anyone else scales, it would only be Tenshinhan, 22nd Budokai Goku, and possibly 23rd Budokai Yamcha and Krillin (although the scan on their profiles of Roshi stating they surpassed him is dead, so...)

 

[KLOL506]

KLOL506:

A calculation for Piccolo's Moon busting placed in a blog post would also be very useful, yes.

I plan to re-do Kep's calculation and eventually place it in a blog, but only if Roshi's 5-B moonbusting calculation is accepted.

However, AFAIK from this thread, it should be fine to use anime timeframe for Piccolo's Beam speed from Earth to the Moon as anime and manga show Piccolo shooting the beam in the exact same manner.

For now, I'll put it in my computer in form of a readme.txt file (LMFAO)

EDIT: Also, sneak peek, anime timeframe (OG DBZ anime or Kai, doesn't really matter, timeframes are borderline identical) being used gives Piccolo Relativistic speeds without the + (40.57% - 41.92% the speed of light), it took him roughly 3 seconds to get his beam to reach the moon from Earth. This is for Piccolo's beam being fired from Earth to the Moon, not the speed of the hurling moon debris.

EDIT 2: Oh, one more thing, using my corrected values, Piccolo's feat is only 5.25-7.19x higher than what SSJRyu calc'd for Roshi's moonbusting feat, and I'm assuming SSJRyu's 40-second-lowball. AKA Piccolo's moonbust is 5-B.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Yeah, if we do out Piccolos moon beam with anime timeframe it will most likely be 5-B or 5-A depending if we use the lower or higher timeframes. Either way though it will be above Roshi's which is low on the 5-B spectrum. I'd recommend doing a high and low end using both timeframes personally. If help is needed with the Piccolo calc let me know and I don't mind helping, but I think KLOL506 said he was on top of doing a Piccolo feat blog so I don't want to step on his toes in regards to that.

 

[KLOL506]

Yeah, if we do out Piccolos moon beam with anime timeframe it will most likely be 5-B or 5-A depending if we use the lower or higher timeframes. Either way though it will be above Roshi's which is low on the 5-B spectrum. I'd recommend doing a high and low end using both timeframes personally. If help is needed with the Piccolo calc let me know and I don't mind helping, but I think KLOL506 said he was on top of doing a Piccolo feat blog so I don't want to step on his toes in regards to that.

Guess Toei Profiles get affected too.

Also the timeframe really depends on where you want the explosion to stop (If it's upto where we can see moondust and sparkling stars it takes 13 seconds for all the debris to go poof, if you want to take the timeframe from the explosion to where the bright lights appear and Piccolo shows his hands appearing to be blinded, then this amounts to 3.41-3.52 seconds of debris being hurled over, but the timeframes for both are the exact same in both the OG anime and Kai). But for the sake of all good things on this planet, I'll add in a high-end variant as well when I get the time.

Also Kep messed up on the pixel-scaling in the Piccolo moonbusting calc as well. Fortunately, I have better scans to fix it.

 

[Wokistan]

Commented on the calc blog

 

[KLOL506]

Commented on the calc blog

I replied.

 

[SSJRyu1]

I replied on the blog as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Tell us here about when you have reached a conclusion.

 

[SSJRyu1]

So I am still waiting for any other input. However there seems to be no complaints about the actual calculation, that is done properly if we want to use it. Myself, Kep (original calc/pixel scaling), KLOL506 and presumably Wokistan who didn't say anything was wrong with the calc itself have all looked it over. Iirc if the calc was good most people are OK using it.

Speed has been agreed on by everybody who has looked at it without complaint. The majority who commented or saw the blog on the calc request thread either liked it on the calc request or left a comment of support.

There was a brief discussion about if KE was the best to use since Wokistan was unsure, because he thought it might be night time, however we since provided evidence that the feat does indeed happen during the day while the sun is out and the sky is clear, and is depicted as a violent explosion outward.

So if we are good on using KE we could likely add it, since the calc is indeed done properly. I'll leave it to your discretion if you feel we need to get more people to look at the calc.

 

[KLOL506]

So I am still waiting for any other input. However there seems to be no complaints about the actual calculation, that is done properly if we want to use it. Myself, Kep (original calc/pixel scaling), KLOL506 and presumably Wokistan who didn't say anything was wrong with the calc itself have all looked it over. Iirc if the calc was good most people are OK using it.

Speed has been agreed on by everybody who has looked at it without complaint. The majority who commented or saw the blog on the calc request thread either liked it on the calc request or left a comment of support.

There was a brief discussion about if KE was the best to use since Wokistan was unsure, because he thought it might be night time, however we since provided evidence that the feat does indeed happen during the day while the sun is out and the sky is clear, and is depicted as a violent explosion outward.

So if we are good on using KE we could likely add it, since the calc is indeed done properly. I'll leave it to your discretion if you feel we need to get more people to look at the calc.

I'd actually wait for Wokistan's response regarding our replies before we apply the calc. Also, since this is a controversial topic, an evaluation from another calc member wouldn't be such a bad idea (Though it'd have to be someone who doesn't outright have something to hate on HST and DB calcs in general).

Granted, I'm an honorary calc member who hasn't taken up the job yet and me personally, the calc is fine but I'd suggest waiting a bit longer.

 

[Antvasima]

Waiting to make sure that everything is correct seems fine to me as well.

Of course, there is the issue of how this affects characters of higher tiers in later storyarcs via chain-scaling.

 

[KLOL506]

Waiting to make sure that everything is correct seems fine to me as well.

Of course, there is the issue of how this affects characters of higher tiers in later storyarcs via chain-scaling.

Well, for starters, Piccolo's moonbust will need to be recalc'd provided Roshi's calc goes through and Toeiverse characters would need to be revised as well but I think only 5-C and 5-B characters will be affected in the Saiyan Saga or anyone who is a good-enough Frieza soldier.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. We need to properly figure out what to do in any case.

 

[KLOL506]

Okay. We need to properly figure out what to do in any case.

Just a side-note, speed using anime-timeframe for Roshi's Kamehameha wave to cover the Earth-moon distance (AKA the 0.098c value) is perfectly fine, Wokistan himself said so and most of the admins here and pretty much everyone else also have no problems using anime timeframe for the Kamehameha's speed. So all that is needed is for people to give one more evaluation to the AP stuff, and Wok's response to our replies at the very least.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is probably fine then.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Just a side-note, speed using anime-timeframe for Roshi's Kamehameha wave to cover the Earth-moon distance (AKA the 0.098c value) is perfectly fine, Wokistan himself said so and most of the admins here and pretty much everyone else also have no problems using anime timeframe for the Kamehameha's speed. So all that is needed is for people to give one more evaluation to the AP stuff, and Wok's response to our replies at the very least.

What about the anime timeframe for Piccolo?

 

[KLOL506]

What about the anime timeframe for Piccolo?

Yeah, should be fine as well, last I remember, we were talking about it a few comments back in this thread, Damage made a rough calc about it, wields Relativistic results, as it takes around roughly 3 seconds for the beam to cover the Earth-Moon distance (Basically the same rating we have for Saiyan Saga Piccolo ATM for both Toei and canon Piccolo)

 

[LordTracer]

No rush, but has any more progress been made on the calc?