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Addressing Roshi's Feat

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I don't see why we wouldn't use KE when we have the mass, aprox timeframe and aprox distance for dispersal. We do that all the time if we have those values like with Friezas attack on planet Vegeta.

1. IIRC we don't use Piccolos current manga calc since it relied on a falling rock on panel reaching the ground for its number. This Roshi calc doesn't rely on such a convoluted method to determine speed, it goes by either anime timeframe of 40 sec, or a conservative assumption of 20 sec for dispersal in Keps original calc.

2. If it was turned to gas the gas still has the same mass as the original rock, I don't see why its GBE would suddenly disappear if it wasn't forcibly spread out at incredible speed which is what were calcing whether its gas or rubble. It would not instantly disperse with that amount of mass and size to my knowledge, it would take quite some time. To move all that gas out of panel in 40 or 20 seconds you would still need the calculated KE. So I don't agree on the gas instantly dispersing. Just look at gas planets like Jupiter that are literally mostly gas but are kept together due to the mass.

3. The calc does not rely on any matter reaching earth, just the fact the matter is not visible and thus moved off panel in that timeframe. The state of the matter frankly shouldn't change its mass or velocity from my understanding.

4. I cant see KLOL scans, but I did have the original manga scans in the calc so i'm assuming its that.

Using vaporization only when we know the mass of the moon, and that they moved the matter out of view from the panel within a very short timeframe (40 sec or less in anime, 20 sec was Keps estimate for manga without anime timeframe) would be like saying Frieza is only planet level for destroying planet Vegeta even though we have the tools to calculate the KE of the attack. In fact we know more about Roshis feat since we have the mass of the moon but assumed Earths size with 10X density for Planet Vegeta.
 
  1. We don't have the mass, we see some of the rubble in the panels KLOL but that's clearly not the full mass of the moon. Frieza's attack was entirely animated, not just a panel here or in the anime.
  2. True, though I never had problems with the timeframe, just everything else.
  3. If it's been reduced to gas we wouldn't be able to see it in interplanetary distances, atmospheric haze alone would be a problem, nevermind the city lights pollution. It also doesn't help that Monster Carrot, who was on the moon when it blew up, remained in the general area even to the Galactic Patrol Saga so it proves that the mass wasn't ejected or at least ejected at that speed.
  4. "Due to the mass", due to the solid core. The gas itself is so trivial in its GBE that despite having a thousand times more volume its gravity is a meger 2.5x the gravity of Earth.
  5. Like I said above, Frieza's feat showed the clear eruption of mass at those speeds, the same can't be said here when the supposed movement is entirely offscreen.
 
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Just a heads up, unlike Anime, Manga doesn't have animation or cinematic timeframe to judge the velocity of the objects getting launched to calculate results.
 
So should we try to get something done here soon? If you need help from the calculation group, you can send a few of them private messages.
 
1. I don't see why you think we don't have the mass. Clearly the moon is no longer visible on panel after its destruction thus the entire mass was moved off panel. Even if it were gas you'd see the gas and it wouldn't instantly disperse. If anything the gravity of earth would turn it into a dust ring over time if it dispersed, or pull it down toward earth, both of which would be visible unless it were dispersed beyond the influence of Earths gravity.

2. You would certainly see the gas/dust of a moon sized object at that distance if it wasn't vastly dispersed, Goku can literally see the full moon prior so clearly the sky was clear at the time to. And the only way it would be dispersed to the point of not seeing it is if it was flung out at high speeds.

3. They revived the moon, and monster carrot is a gag character throwback way after the feat, so I don't see that as a relevant thing.

4. The gas still stays in that one area, due to the mass of the object, the state of the matter is not important, the mass/density is, so my point stands. The GBE wouldn't change due to a state change instantly. Look at the sun, its pure gas. So I disagree with your claim it would instantly disperse to the point of not being visible due to a state change.

5. It is the logical conclusion that the mass was ejected off screen in that timeframe since you cannot see the moon or any part or remnant of it after the feat, so logically KE applies and vaporization doesn't make sense or the matter would remain and be visible in some state.

6. Also it's consistent that the mass is ejected like every other ki blast that is depicted destroying a planet in Db has been.

Simple Vaporization just doesn't line up with the aftermath that we see in the timeframe, or the consistent showings of how planets are destroyed in virtually all other cases in DB.
 
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SSJRyu1 said:
6. Also it's consistent that the mass is ejected like every other ki blast that is depicted destroying a planet in Db has been.

Simple Vaporization just doesn't line up with the aftermath that we see in the timeframe, or the consistent showings of how planets are destroyed in virtually all other cases in DB.
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Won't delve in the calc-related parts but I personally agree with this part. And even in the thread where Piccolo's feat was discussed, I never liked the assumption that somehow a tiny beam would just engulf the whole Moon and vaporize it when that has never happened in DB and literally every other celestial body destruction in literally all DB media is displayed with a big explosion. Also, the big flash of light and the giant sound effects written across the panels for both feats in the manga also point to explosion, and it is even visually made more clear in Roshi's feat where the parts of Moon are shown to be flung away.
 
  1. If the full mass was in fact shot out, a significant portion of it would reach the Earth. There is no going around that fact- even in the Frieza calculation we see a mass shoot out everywhere. The mass, like in the real world, was likely mostly burnt up upon ejection. A 5-C explosion would mean most of the dust would leave Earth's GBE pretty quickly, I'm not sure why you're assuming a dust ring would form.
  2. Yes? I'm not arguing against that, that's been a point. The issue is that most of the mass is clearly not ejected in the way you're describing, again going back to the scans KLOL linked, we see that the mass that did get ejected was minimal at best.
  3. If Monster Carrot is nearby the original spot (and therefore didn't get ejected at near LS speeds), it shows that the entire mass didn't get ejected like you're claiming, hence why it's a relevant point.
  4. Like with your Jupiter example, you should check what you're saying. Despite being thousands of times bigger than Jupiter (in turn thousands of times bigger than Earth), the gaseous state of the sun results in only 28 g compared to Earth. The reason why the state of matter matters, is because gas tends to have more volume (ergo less density and more radius) resulting in less gravity. This is the sun, now imagine the moon after being reduced to dust and spread about in space. I also never claimed that GBE didn't get overwhelmed.
  5. The logical conclusion is that most of the mass was destroyed in the process, not that the moon's full mass somehow survived and coincidently missed the Earth. I already pointed out atmospheric haze would get rid of the visibility issue, especially at sunset/night with how much light pollution a city creates.
  6. I mean, when put into animated form, you get examples of heavily reduced matter being ejected or mostly reduced to dust.
  7. AKM, I won't deny that, but when Buu destroyed the Earth the light came before the mass was scattered, something that doesn't happen in Roshi's case. So to use precedence here isn't the best, if anything, you could argue explosion just consumed most of the mass in Roshi's case.
 
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Mass doesn't burn up my dude, the dust or gas would have the same mass, and the only way it could disperse that fast and far is via KE explosion, just vaporizing the matter would not disperse it that fast. You even already said yourself it was ejected so I don't see why your arguing that KE doesn't apply when measuring that ejection is what KE calc does. Simply vaporizing it would just change its state, but the mass would remain and it would take a long time for it to dissipate to the point we can't see it.

It's common for large amounts of dust and gas to form rings if close to a planet due to being pulled into its gravity, simply turning something to gas and dust, especially in the presence of significant gravity doesn't make it instantly dissipate at thousands of KM a second like the matter in the feat would have done.

The mass does seem to be ejected in the way I'm describing tbh since it literally has left the panel and can't be seen within the span of the feat. And as AKM said it has a "kaboom" sfx indicating a violent explosion outward.

I don't see a gag throwback scene that happens far removed from the feat on a restored moon as relevant, sorry.

I don't see your point, clearly gas can be held together by gravity, and I don't see any reason to believe that the gas and dust of the entire moon would instantaneously dissipate at vastly accelerated speeds without a KE explosion, like is depicted in the Roshi feat and virtually every other DB planet destroying feat.

Sure, some particles could make it to Earth, but that again could take a long time due to the distance, and many would be burned up, especially if it is turned to dust and small rubble. I don't see that as a solid argument to disprove the fact we see the moon has dispersed off panel in that timeframe honestly.

You don't destroy mass, you only can change the state. 1 kg of gas moving at a velocity of 1m/s has the same joules as 1kg of solid moving at 1m/s. The formula only cares about mass and velocity.

I don't see how atmospheric haze would get rid of the entire mass of the moon being superheated into a gas on a clear afternoon where they can see the full moon. You would definably see the remnants of the moon if the matter didn't get ejected like is implied by nothing being left on panel.

Sorry man but vaporization just doesn't make sense for what's depicted imo. You would see remnants and it is implied by the sfx and scene that a violent explosion and ejection occurred to force the moons matter off panel in a very short time. Also it would be inconsistent for it to not be a violent explosion so we shouldn't assume it is vaporization when its not shown to be and never has been in any other DB planet busting feat.
 
This is tiptoeing the fact that if the full mass did come out, the Earth would have inevitably been heavily damaged in the process. Also burning up is extremely common here, most meteors are completely burnt up, this is really no different. Without the moon's full GBE the dust would dissipate immediately.

Ignoring the fact that it would take centuries for a ring to form, most of the dust would leave Earth's range pretty easily. I mean, its a moon busting attack after all.

The same panel also shows that the amount of mass ejected was nothing compared to the full size of the moon.

It doesn't matter if Carrot surviving is a gag throwback scene- the point is that forceful of all the mass is not what happened.

I'm not that there wasn't any ejection or any KE explosion. Just that clearly most of the mass was vaporized and matter was burnt out in the core of the explosion, hence using its full mass is dubious.

"Sure, some particles could make it to Earth, but that again could take a long time due to the distance," At that speeds the calculation is describing and the mass you're entailing, it would take minutes and enough of the moon's mass would have survived the burn out period.

That's an awful way to simplify the issue- you're arguing that the full mass of the moon is moving at MHS (Specifically going off Kep's calc 260550 m/s or Mach 759.6) speeds. I'm arguing that both the mass that was ejected and the speeds of the ejection (for whatever was reduced to gas specifically) are different than that.

This takes place in sunset, hence why the moon's out. Regardless, the atmospheric haze would mean most of the gas wouldn't be seen by the humans- especially with light pollution from being in a city. Why do you think we don't see regular cosmic dust irl?

You could go back to as far as my first comment here, I don't reject the explosion or ejection of mass- just how much was ejected after Roshi would have reduced a significant portion of it to cosmic dust.
 
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Even if it was vaporized all that gas has still to be dispersed somewhere, and even if it's instant, it would still have to move in some sort of direction. Seems like figuring out a proper timeframe at this point is the only issue at this point since we can't figure that out in the manga. It's basically like moving clouds but in space and instead of clouds it's the gases of the vaporized moon.

I honestly don't get why we can't use the anime timeframe for Roshi's moonbust to figure out how long it took for all the moon debris to disperse, since the feat happens in literally the same way as in the manga (Albeit with a difference of how much debris is shown to be visible).
 
I asked @Wokistan earlier to help out with the calc-related part here. I hope he can find the time to go over the arguments and figure out the correct method to calc the feat.
 
Well, we need accepted calculations of the two Moon feats before we can apply anything higher than 5-C.
 
I would put forward Kep's calc which he did for me on the Roshi feat as an accurate calc. Alternatively if people want to use the anime timeframe you could plug in 40 seconds instead of Keps estimated 20 seconds for the timeframe. I posted both in my previous posts. If it would help I or somebody else could place one or both of them in a blog to of course.
 
It would be appreciated if somebody could place calculations with the anime timeframes in blog posts, yes. Thank you.
 
OK so I did a rough calculation in my mind for Piccolo's moonbusting feat of busting the moon and this time I assumed that the explosion lasted until the moment the moon dust was clearly visible (Both in the OG anime and Kai this took 13 seconds), and via pixel-scaling I found out that the debris moved anywhere between 5655.67-6321.47669 kilometers within that timeframe, which gives me speeds between 435,051.8 - 486,237 m/s and both the results reach high-end 5-B (I get 6.948e+33 Joules to 8.68e+33 Joules).

Guess the feat wasn't 5-A to begin with LOL
 
How did this turn from discussing a previously regarded as an outlier 5-C feat into upgrading it to a higher end of 5-B?
Wouldn't 5-B make this look like even a bigger outlier? What about Vegeta who's Galick Gun at 18k PL was at tops Planet Level by statement? I personally don't believe that anything before Vegeta is Planet Level.
 
Slacjow said:
How did this turn from discussing a previously regarded as an outlier 5-C feat into upgrading it to a higher end of 5-B?
Wouldn't 5-B make this look like even a bigger outlier? What about Vegeta who's Galick Gun at 18k PL was at tops Planet Level by statement? I personally don't believe that anything before Vegeta is Planet Level.
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Because it wasn't an oultlier as 5-C
 
LordTracer said:
If the feat is calced at 5-B, then technically, there is no 5-C feat to begin with. That doesn’t suddenly make it an outlier again.
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It doesn't suddenly make it an outlier, but depending on the results it could be decided to be an outlier again.
 
Considering we've covered 5 pages by now, we could just implement 5-C and then discuss 5-B another thread like we originally planned. Or continue to debate, at this point I've already agreed to either tiering so I'm neutral on that regard.
 
KLOL506 said:
OK so I did a rough calculation in my mind for Piccolo's moonbusting feat of busting the moon and this time I assumed that the explosion lasted until the moment the moon dust was clearly visible (Both in the OG anime and Kai this took 13 seconds), and via pixel-scaling I found out that the debris moved anywhere between 5655.67-6321.47669 kilometers within that timeframe, which gives me speeds between 435,051.8 - 486,237 m/s and both the results reach high-end 5-B (I get 6.948e+33 Joules to 8.68e+33 Joules).

Guess the feat wasn't 5-A to begin with LOL
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Combine this with this (This is the calc Kep got using the anime timeframe for Roshi blowing up the moon), and nah, it ain't an outlier
 
It does, people had issues with Roshi being Moon Level to begin with. Why do you think people called the feat an outlier? Because there was no feat on that level in OG DB to support the notion. Now it is above baseline Planet Level.
 
Slacjow said:
It does, people had issues with Roshi being Moon Level to begin with. Why do you think people called the feat an outlier? Because there was no feat on that level in OG DB to support the notion. Now it is above baseline Planet Level.
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We literally debunked all the notions of the feat being an outlier several pages ago, I suggest you look at them first before saying stuff like this.

Also, LITERALLY NO ONE ELSE BUT THE GOD TIERS OF OG DRAGON BALL WILL SCALE TO THIS. So why is the question of "outlier" coming up anyway?
 
Slacjow said:
It does, people had issues with Roshi being Moon Level to begin with. Why do you think people called the feat an outlier? Because there was no feat on that level in OG DB to support the notion. Now it is above baseline Planet Level.
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Did you like... read through this thread at all? Hell, did you even look at the count of people in agreement in the OP? Do you really think the idea of it being an outlier wouldn’t have been discussed by now?
 
Except, the legitimacy of the feat was discussed as in Moon Level feat not Planet Level feat. And yes, I read through most of the thread.
KLOL506 said:
Also, LITERALLY NO ONE ELSE BUT THE GOD TIERS OF OG DRAGON BALL WILL SCALE TO THIS. So why is the question of "outlier" coming up anyway?
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Can you not DO THAT? Chill or stay away from discussion. It's irrelevant if it scales only to God Tiers or not.
 
Honestly, I don't want to discuss it right now in this situation. We won't come to an agreement anyway.
Roshi's feat was discussed and approved as in Moon Level feat when everybody agreed to it, the notion of it being Planet Level came only recently. It's like a little cheesy move to bump up the feat.
I suggest another Staff Discussion but with Planet Level in mind right from the beginning.
 
AKM sama said:
Why though? Assuming Kep's calc is fine, idk how arguing for potentially a more accurate rating would suddenly be "pushing it and losing supporters". If the feat is 5-B, it's 5-B. It doesn't change the main conclusion that was reached in this thread about the feat not being an outlier. Now that we aren't treating it as an outlier, we should figure out the most accurate actual yield of the feat.


We should absolutely cover all bases in this thread only. And that includes finding an appropriate calc for destruction if there is one, and speed ratings too. I don't see the need of making a new thread just to discuss the same thing there instead of here.

Currently, we need the opinion of a calc group member on what SSJRyu brought up and the calc Kep had made.
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This in a nutshell

Meaning all discussion of the feat being 5-B will be done in this thread.
 
OK, sorry for the wait. Here is a blog detailing both the speed of Roshi's kamehameha, and the energy output of it using the KE formula like was discussed. I didn't tackle Piccolo since this is a Roshi thread and that's a sperate feat.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Roshis Moon busting kamehameha Calculation

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

I'm fine with if we round up to relativistic speed for him given it is so close (less than 1.4% away), or if we choose to keep him sub relativistic+ and just make those faster than him relativistic.
 
Kep did the pixel scaling part, it looks to be accurate to me with the red circle being about 2 thirds as wide as the green line like the numbers indicate. I doubt there would be a significant difference if remeasured but the calc group can check it out.
 
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