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Adding 3 More Feats to Mario

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The_Smashor said:
Like I said, Attack Potency and Destructive Capacity are different things. Having Universal AP =/= The ability to destroy a universe.
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No. Listen. In order for Bowser to destroy the dreams, he would need to have Universal+ range. I only brought up the tier itself to solidify the fact that it's not an outlier and that it's in Bowser's capabilities to output that amount of energy. The range part was guaranteed from the start, and it's even more evident when you consider Wart had a range upgrade because he can affect the entire dream world, he just didn't scale to the tier because at the time Mario was only 4-A.
 
I support the idea of destruction and have already given my opinion on why it would not be corruption, especially with translations
 
Hello, yes. We should try and get more input here.

Shadow Queen has been pretty unanimously rejected, but King Olly and Mario Party 5 have supporters but also some potential flaws apparently.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Hello, yes. We should try and get more input here.

Shadow Queen has been pretty unanimously rejected, but King Olly and Mario Party 5 have supporters but also some potential flaws apparently.
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Not sure what the flaws are. Translations debunk the corruption arguments, Olly's is blatant Low 2-C.
 
Basically, I think it'd be a good idea to post the scans saying destruction consistently again because a lot are still under the impression that Mario Party 5's feat is Corruption and seem to have not acknowledged it.

As for King Olly it's mostly people iffy on if it truly does function on such a scale and if we can trust the villain's words.
 
Personally I think King Olly is fine.

And I also think Mario Party 5's feat is fine if destruction is consistent.

Just trying to be fair and not say everyone has accepted them. Only King Olly so far seems to have a majority in favor, while MP5's feat is pretty split.

Emile said they'd come back later with the translations as well to further elaborate on the dream feats.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
As for King Olly it's mostly people iffy on if it truly does function on such a scale and if we can trust the villain's words.
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No offense, but if we already see space get affected, and how "fabric of reality" by definition is all of space-time, then that's moreso a nitpicky argument in all honesty... if Olly were to say universe, it would be no different in terms of argument. Also Olly isn't being cocky here nor does he really joke around, so I'm unsure why we can't take his own word either. Olivia at some points as far as I'm aware has also said Olly wants the world folded as well.

Much like how Galaxy's feat relies on "fabric of the universe" for it to be Low 2-C, "fabric of reality" is not at all different. Because why would you ever use the term planet and reality as the same word? Not even just reality, but the "very fabric of reality". Like, the word alone does not mean planet in the slightest.
 
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What are the conclusions here so far?
 
Okay. Thank you for the summary.

Which staff members have commented here previously? So I can send a notification to them.
 
I gave my input thinking King Olly's claim is fine, but I'd prefer to wait on Dino Ranger Black for the Mario Party 5 example.
 
Considering I was requested to translate things and said I’d do so in my last comment, I’ll be handling that now. Rather than just look at the three scans being discussed already, I decided it would be best to look at the plot as a whole, so I went through the entire Japanese story mode. Like Super Mario 64, this game avoids kanji like the plague to make it more accessible to kids, which makes it a bit of a pain to interpret/translate. As such, when looking through the dialogue, I decided to change what I could to its kanji equivalent, as it makes it much easier to read. Whilst this may taint the text with my own interpretation of how it should be read, unlike with Super Mario 64 the relevant words in question are much easier to pinpoint the meaning to, so this shouldn’t be an issue.

So, Bowser’s plot, what is it? He tells the Koopa Kid/Mini Bowser “Here we shall destroy the dreams and turn them into my dreams, you hear! That way, my long-awaited dream shall be fulfilled, see!!”. (ここにある夢を壊して、ワガハイの夢に変えちゃうのだ！そうすればここで、ワガハイの長年の夢が叶うのだ!!) So all in all, DatOneWeebs’ translation is pretty accurate and the same core message comes across.

Misstar backs this up by telling the hero “At this rate, the world of dreams will be destroyed, deary.” ( このままだと、夢の世界が壊されてしまうわ。). Something you’ll notice in contrast to the English statement is the lack of “one by one”. Whilst originally this made me think she’s just saying the dream worlds, plural, it seems more accurate to say she’s talking about Dream Depot as a whole. Every time an individual dream world is referenced, it’s referred to as ユメ (i.e. 夢/yume, dream), whilst here Misstar uses the term ユメのせかい (夢の世界/yume no sekai, dream world/world of dreams), which tends to be used as a way to refer to Dream Depot, the overarching world in which all the dreams are found. Whilst this may not change much, since Dream Depot is at threat anyway, I guess the lack of “one by one” could be important, but this is less of a mistranslation and more of a way to make it flow well in English.

As for Sweet Dream, Bowser does indeed say “Bwahaha! I’ll destroy this Sweet Dream and turn it into my own, you heeear!!” (ガッハッハ！このスウィート・ドリームを壊してワガハイの夢にしてやるのだー！！). However, you’ll notice now that all three sentences use the verb “壊して” / “壊されてしまう”, which are conjugations of the verb “壊す”. Whilst generally this means “destroy”, it can also mean “ruin” (even in obscure ways like ruining your health), which I’d say is why the English localisation says “ruin” at times, so we can’t entirely say the Japanese dialogue lacks the word “ruin” but can interpret it as meaning “destroy” all the same.

Looking to the Mario Party 5 section of the Japanese Nintendo website for anything further, I found a summary of the story. It notes that Bowser “started to do evil things” and taunts “If you want to save the world of dreams, you'll have to fight us!!”, which basically confirms the idea that he’s doing it to lure in powerful challengers to grant the wish he’s had for many years of fighting someone strong. As for Misstar’s claim about people being able to dream again after Bowser’s defeat, in Japanese, she says “Thanks to you, everyone’s dreams were protected. With this, everyone throughout the world can dream with peace of mind, deary. … … Today, as it has been before, I’m sure everyone’s wonderful dreams will come and gather in Dream Depot.” (あなたのおかげで、みんなの夢は守られました / 護られました。これで、世界中の誰もがあんしんして夢見ることができるわ。……きょうもユメミールには、すてきな夢が集まって来るでしょう。). Whilst she says that people can now dream “with a clear mind” or “without worry”, implying that it’s not that people couldn’t dream but would just not have a very nice experience when dreaming, she goes on to say about how Dream Depot will continue to be a place where dreams can come together once again, which seems to suggest they wouldn’t have been able to otherwise, so it does seem pretty consistent that Bowser was a threat to Dream Depot’s entirety and stopped dreams from gathering there.

However, I must admit something. Whilst people have been discussing how the Japanese dialogue does not imply Bowser might have just been planning to corrupt the dreams… the more I translated the dialogue, the more I felt this was his intention. As I said, the consistently used “壊す” can mean ruin, and Bowser is saying about replacing it with or turning it into his own dream. It wouldn’t be a stretch to say corruption would achieve this. So I decided to check the Bowser Nightmare board, which in Japanese is called “Bowser Dream” (クッパドリーム). Whilst in the English localisation, Bowser simply just implies it’s his dream, like something he dreamt up that came to Dream Depot, he actually says a bit more here: “Yes outstanding, this is my dream! It’s truly wonderful, you know!!” (素晴らしい、ここがワガハイの夢だ。全くステキだぞ！！). You might notice he refers to it as “ワガハイの夢”, the same phrase he has consistently said to be his goal and what he’ll replace the dreams with/turn the dreams into. Mind, ワガハイ is just the pronoun Bowser uses to refer to himself throughout the entire franchise, so it’s really just “my dream”, but it does build up a suspicion. What’s more, the extra part of the statement comments on his opinion on the dream with an implication he’s never seen it before, so it’s questionable to assume this was something he dreamt up, and may in fact be a result of his corruption (Bowser does often invade places and turn them into a lava filled realm). However, considering the dreams are all shown to be themed (be it on sweets, pirates, space, etc), and Bowser’s schemes have certainly made himself well-known, you could just argue this is a dream themed around Bowser, which of course he’d enjoy seeing. I’m sure it might be a bit troubling for those who support the feat to hear this, but I think it’s best to lay everything out honestly as opposed to trying to translate it in a way that best represents what people want to hear.
 
Thank you for helping out and striving for accuracy Emile.
 
Corruption seems like the more feasible interpretation. I think we should just apply King Olly and conclude, after Dino’s input
 
I see people are quickly jumping on the corruption bandwagon, so I guess I should clarify some things. My comment about this possibly being troubling for those who wanted to support the feat was in reference to how the "ruin" interpretation hasn't been fully refuted, meaning they may still have some convincing to do, but I suppose that got misinterpreted.

When claiming that I felt it might have been Bowser's intention to corrupt the dreams, I was simply pointing out how I felt as I was in the process of translating, as terms like "replace" and "turn into" were popping up. Since people were claiming the Japanese dialogue had no indication of this being a possibility, I wanted to clear the air by admitting you can still read it that way. And with Bowser referring to "Bowser Dream" by the same term (ワガハイのユメ) that he's been mentioning throughout the game's plot, and reacting to it as if saying "Wow! So this is what my end goal looks like, amazing!", it felt like it was feasible.

However, whilst “壊す” (the verb used by Bowser and Misstar in reference to what Bowser will do to the dreams) can mean "ruin", most translations of the word would be in line with "destroy". The fact even the localisation team used "destroy" shows this interpretation is indeed valid (and arguably more likely). And, as aforementioned, this could just be a pre-existing Bowser-themed dream. "Sweet Dream" is themed after sweets, "Toy Dream" is themed after toys, "Pirate Dream" is themed after pirates, and these are all pre-existing dreams, so "Bowser Dream" (localised as Bowser Nightmare) could be dreams that people have had about Bowser, like nightmares from experiences (Bowser's plans do tend to affect a large number of people, after all). Sure, I can't deny that Bowser is good at corrupting places with a lava aesthetic, but he really just acts impressed with the dream, not as if he's achieved his goal (he'd be ranting way more about it if that were the case, and as I said, ワガハイのユメ is just how Bowser would say "my dream", which makes sense for him to say considering it's themed after him). In addition to this, Misstar is always glad when Bowser leaves a dream, and yet she just says "Ah, Bowser's challenging you, you better go see what he's up to" when you prepare to go to Bowser Nightmare, nothing like "Oh no, he actually succeeded, you have to stop him before he affects any more dreams", further implying Bowser Nightmare is pre-existing.

Plus, as I said in my original comment on this thread:
LuckyEmile said:
What was Bowser’s plan? Well, he sees Dream Depot as yet another thing that can make his wish come true, and he admits to the hero at the end that he wanted to fight someone strong. This might have been some Touhou-style “I caused an issue so strong people would come and try to stop me” shenanigans, and destroying dream worlds can definitely achieve this goal
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Destruction just makes much more sense in order to achieve this goal, and this was heavily hinted at actually being the approach he was taking on the website, not to mention Misstar still shows concern that it will affect Dream Depot as a whole. Even the idea of people not being able to dream should Bowser succeed is found in the Japanese version, it's just Misstar mentioning "without worry" that made me second guess it, but I still believe it's the message she's trying to put across in the full quote.

All in all, with consistent references to Bowser planning to destroy the dream worlds, ultimately even Dream Depot itself, and was even stopping people from dreaming by doing so, I agree with this being a Low 2-C feat. Whilst it can be argued to be ruining/corruption, I generally feel this is a less solid reading and was mostly brought up to point out it is at least a possible reading for the sake of fairness to both sides.
 
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For a tl;dr, she agrees with the feat being Low 2-C. Corruption had an argument, but destruction overall is much more likely as a whole and its evidence much outweighs it.
 
I dunno. Wouldn't turning dreams into nightmares kind of fall in line with the worries about people not being able to dream anymore?
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
I dunno. Wouldn't turning dreams into nightmares kind of fall in line with the worries about people not being able to dream anymore?
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Isn't that just Bowser creating his own dream, not ruining or affecting others? Emile further elaborated that the dream was pre-existing before the events started, meaning Misstar wasn't concerned about Bowser's Nightmare, but about the Dream Depot from Bowser wanting to destroy it.
 
I suppose it's legit Tier 2 destruction, but it still sounds like something that would be his prep time. He destroys and recreates the dreams one by one, and each of his Nightmares probably are rising and have resources to assist him in invading all those other dreams. I'm still uneasy about it being used for a physical feat as he like everyone else can create those dreams via sleeping. And his eventual goal is to basically just make the entire Dream Depot to become an entire multiverse of countless copies of Bowser's Nightmares.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I suppose it's legit Tier 2 destruction, but it still sounds like something that would be his prep time. He destroys and recreates the dreams one by one, and each of his Nightmares probably are rising and have resources to assist him in invading all those other dreams. I'm still uneasy about it being used for a physical feat as he like everyone else can create those dreams via sleeping. And his eventual goal is to basically just make the entire Dream Depot to become an entire multiverse of countless copies of Bowser's Nightmares.
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Wouldn't him making a nightmare mean he'd need to be sleeping? Which we see throughout the game he's not doing when his plan was to destroy the Dream Depot. He'd be destroying it one by one, but it'd need to be done fast due to how many dreams are there, literal countless per day. The creating a dream world isn't the physical feat, it's the destruction. His eventual goal is to destroy the dreams first, make more after. Meaning he'd being the destruction first, and as seen throughout the game, Bowser's dream world doesn't cause any type of ruin towards other dreams. So it seems like Bowser wants to destroy every single dream, and then replace his own as a general gist.
 
An "at least (any lower tier), possibly "Low 2-C"" will be good enough for me.

If he wants to attack every single dream, some of which are demonstrated to be big enough to contain one universe, that should qualify as one 3-A or even low 2-C feat.

Disclaimer: I am again not the best Mario verse interpreter.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
Here.
Screenshot_20210614-132926_Chrome.jpg
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Is there any context that "world" in this scenario refers to the universe? Ridding the world of all paper-thin beings is possible by folding reality on a interplanetary or another limited range, for example.
 
AKM sama said:
Is there any context that "world" in this scenario refers to the universe? Ridding the world of all paper-thin beings is possible by folding reality on a interplanetary or another limited range, for example.
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Because he said "very fabric of reality" in the last five seconds + his target went beyond the planet due to already affecting space.
 
Jasonsith said:
An "at least (any lower tier), possibly "Low 2-C"" will be good enough for me.
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This is just for if the feats are Low 2-C or not, scaling can be done in another thread.

Jasonsith said:
If he wants to attack every single dream, some of which are demonstrated to be big enough to contain one universe, that should qualify as one 3-A or even low 2-C feat.
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Every dream here is considered a universe.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
Because he said "very fabric of reality" in the last five seconds + his target went beyond the planet due to already affecting space.
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Yeah, this is not grounds for assuming he was affecting the entire universe. He is folding the fabric of reality which in itself is very vague and the second sentence of ridding the world of paper-thin beings doesn't provide anything to conclude he was affecting the universe. Target being beyond planet =/= target automatically being universe.
 
AKM sama said:
Yeah, this is not grounds for assuming he was affecting the entire universe. He is folding the fabric of reality which in itself is very vague and the second sentence of ridding the world of paper-thin beings doesn't provide anything to conclude he was affecting the universe. Target being beyond planet =/= target automatically being universe.
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How is that vague? It's the entire plot that he wants to reshape the world, which is further elaborated by wanting to affect the very fabric of reality, which would mean space-time by what the word even means. He's using both words in the same context. If he's going to say world, and then display prior he's affecting space, and then say fabric of reality... judging by both affecting space + stating he's affecting the very fabric of reality, that's obviously meaning space-time.
 
Reshaping the world in this context just means getting rid of paper-thin beings. Big words like "fabric of reality" do not directly mean space-time. If I wipe out the life on the Earth, even I can claim to have changed reality or the fabric of reality without effecting any space-time. Even if he is affecting space-time in some form (which I can't see how he is affecting it in that video, visual proof is necessary here), if it's not on a universal scale, it is unquantifiable. And like I said, the context here suggests nothing about any universal scale.

He can very well rid the world of paper-thin beings by affecting something (space-time, fabric of reality, whatever other way he has shown feats of) on a interplanetary range, and all of those statements would still hold true. I don't see any reason for assuming it is some universal feat.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I suppose it's legit Tier 2 destruction, but it still sounds like something that would be his prep time. He destroys and recreates the dreams one by one, and each of his Nightmares probably are rising and have resources to assist him in invading all those other dreams. I'm still uneasy about it being used for a physical feat as he like everyone else can create those dreams via sleeping. And his eventual goal is to basically just make the entire Dream Depot to become an entire multiverse of countless copies of Bowser's Nightmares.
Click to expand...
AKM sama said:
Reshaping the world in this context just means getting rid of paper-thin beings. Big words like "fabric of reality" do not directly mean space-time. If I wipe out the life on the Earth, even I can claim to have changed reality or the fabric of reality without effecting any space-time. Even if he is affecting space-time in some form (which I can't see how he is affecting it in that video, visual proof is necessary here), if it's not on a universal scale, it is unquantifiable. And like I said, the context here suggests nothing about any universal scale.

He can very well rid the world of paper-thin beings by affecting something (space-time, fabric of reality, whatever other way he has shown feats of) on a interplanetary range, and all of those statements would still hold true. I don't see any reason for assuming it is some universal feat.
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This makes sense to me.
 
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