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Alright. I'll trust LuckyEmile on this one and consider the MP5 stuff more legitimate then.
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Adding 3 More Feats to Mario
- Thread starter DatOneWeeb
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I don't agree with shadow queen either, tho i do agree with king olly and bowser feat
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The feats being brought up look pretty good on paper, but I guess it’s best to look at them pretty in more detail.
First, we have the Crystal Stars. Living in the UK, I’ve read the Official Nintendo Magasine for quite a long time until it shut down. Considering it tended to be a mix of reviews, guides and updates on upcoming Nintendo Products, I can definitely see Nintendo’s involvement as the disclaimer claims, but, from experience, the reviews did often come off as a more personal thing, with the writers signing off at the end, pretty much confirming it’s a one-person job. As such, I feel like the information Nintendo is providing would come down to the more objective articles, basically giving a behind-the-scenes perspective so they can report on more than what’s known to the public. In a review, they pretty much have the game to go off so don’t really need anything we wouldn’t know, and Nintendo is just there to give them the insider’s tips for the more guide-centric parts (such as the secrets and battle mechanics) that seem to be detached from the review itself. With that said, it does confirm that it’s completely valid to read the threat the X-nauts pose as being on a universal scale, as we see it getting published without any redflags by people close to the company (you’d generally expect someone like a power scaler to interpret it in such a way, so seeing a casual/informed player also see it this way implies it can definitely be read this way). I can definitely see why people are against the idea of using a review for proof, but, as has been mentioned on the thread, the SPM guide brings up Mario having to save the universe again, and TTYD does seem to be the most likely candidate (the SM64 stuff was pretty much in-universe conjecture, i.e. the Power Stars can do it but this doesn’t necessarily mean Bowser’s planning to do it, and the focus of the game is moreso saving Peach, the Toads and the castle from Bowser’s takeover), so I don’t feel this is exactly baseless. With that said, I’m kind of neutral on this point since the game itself doesn’t seem to take the idea too far, and going from “town” to “world” seems to imply it’s just the world the town is in, i.e. the planet, and saying universe outright would be much less vague (and you don’t want to be vague when motivating someone over the threat at hand).
The Shadow Queen being in the same league as the Crystal Stars also seems to be a point of contention. Just because Supernova can harm her doesn’t necessarily mean she scales to all seven, since the X-nauts would pretty much only have to aim for one Crystal Star/use Supernova if that’s all they’d need to have the power to achieve their goal. With that said, if she’s creating them as tools, and is generally seen as a threat on their level (what with also threatening the world), it does seem to imply she’s comparable. The Crystal Stars depowering her doesn’t necessarily mean it’s leagues beyond her, as even being comparable to her would be enough to achieve this. So, I don’t see the idea as being too out there, but think what’s being used to prove it in the OP is a bit questionable.
Now onto Mario Party 5. Bowser’s plot is admittedly kind of weird in this game. He does pretty consistently mention about destroying or ruining the dreams in Dream Depot, and Misstar does indeed confirm this idea, as well as being pretty relieved whenever he moves away from a dream world. However, he’s also constantly alluding to there being an ulterior motive, only for Koopa Kid to keep cutting him off before he can reveal it. Focusing on the relevant part for now, whilst you could point to how Bowser has a knack for corrupting places he wants to take over, which can be interpreted as ruining it, he actually already has a dream fitting his general motif, which is both outright called Bowser Nightmare and referred to as “my dream” by him. He seems pretty content with it, so it doesn’t seem like he wants to make the other dreams like it, and destroying a dream would indeed ruin it, so I can definitely support the idea of being Low 2-C. I see people are asking me to translate the Japanese text, but I’d like to get my initial thoughts down first so I’ll comment on that later. But that ulterior motive I mentioned earlier, no one’s mentioned this. What was Bowser’s plan? Well, he sees Dream Depot as yet another thing that can make his wish come true, and he admits to the hero at the end that he wanted to fight someone strong. This might have been some Touhou-style “I caused an issue so strong people would come and try to stop me” shenanigans, and destroying dream worlds can definitely achieve this goal, especially since Misstar seems to think his plan would have affected people’s ability to dream, affecting Dream Depot as a whole, which corrupting wouldn’t have pulled off, so I support the feat, but will definitely delve into the Japanese texts.
Finally, The Origami King. King Olly already had big plans, as he wanted to target the entire world, not just limiting himself to a few kingdoms. However, the fact he’ll even reach out to the sun… seems kind of weird, since it only really seems to affect the desert and going to any other area will show sunlight (and since it’s pretty heavily implied that the Legion of Stationary have been working on their respective plots from the start, not just “oh, looks like one of my comrades fell, better get to work in my area”, this shouldn’t just be gameplay mechanics as I doubt Hole Puncher would only achieve this after the defeat of Rubber Band, the scenes with Bobby returning to the ship, sacrificing himself, and Mario reassuring Olivia). With that said, it does, at the very least, seem to support the idea that King Olly is looking to spread his goal far and wide, though clearly it’s just that: supporting evidence, so I won’t look too deeply into it. I agree that folding the very fabric of reality definitely isn’t limited to just a planet, though I’m not too sure how well it can be applied as a feat. We’ve denied others with more evidence here before, but I don’t wholly disagree (especially not on that basis), so I’m neutral on it.
First, we have the Crystal Stars. Living in the UK, I’ve read the Official Nintendo Magasine for quite a long time until it shut down. Considering it tended to be a mix of reviews, guides and updates on upcoming Nintendo Products, I can definitely see Nintendo’s involvement as the disclaimer claims, but, from experience, the reviews did often come off as a more personal thing, with the writers signing off at the end, pretty much confirming it’s a one-person job. As such, I feel like the information Nintendo is providing would come down to the more objective articles, basically giving a behind-the-scenes perspective so they can report on more than what’s known to the public. In a review, they pretty much have the game to go off so don’t really need anything we wouldn’t know, and Nintendo is just there to give them the insider’s tips for the more guide-centric parts (such as the secrets and battle mechanics) that seem to be detached from the review itself. With that said, it does confirm that it’s completely valid to read the threat the X-nauts pose as being on a universal scale, as we see it getting published without any redflags by people close to the company (you’d generally expect someone like a power scaler to interpret it in such a way, so seeing a casual/informed player also see it this way implies it can definitely be read this way). I can definitely see why people are against the idea of using a review for proof, but, as has been mentioned on the thread, the SPM guide brings up Mario having to save the universe again, and TTYD does seem to be the most likely candidate (the SM64 stuff was pretty much in-universe conjecture, i.e. the Power Stars can do it but this doesn’t necessarily mean Bowser’s planning to do it, and the focus of the game is moreso saving Peach, the Toads and the castle from Bowser’s takeover), so I don’t feel this is exactly baseless. With that said, I’m kind of neutral on this point since the game itself doesn’t seem to take the idea too far, and going from “town” to “world” seems to imply it’s just the world the town is in, i.e. the planet, and saying universe outright would be much less vague (and you don’t want to be vague when motivating someone over the threat at hand).
The Shadow Queen being in the same league as the Crystal Stars also seems to be a point of contention. Just because Supernova can harm her doesn’t necessarily mean she scales to all seven, since the X-nauts would pretty much only have to aim for one Crystal Star/use Supernova if that’s all they’d need to have the power to achieve their goal. With that said, if she’s creating them as tools, and is generally seen as a threat on their level (what with also threatening the world), it does seem to imply she’s comparable. The Crystal Stars depowering her doesn’t necessarily mean it’s leagues beyond her, as even being comparable to her would be enough to achieve this. So, I don’t see the idea as being too out there, but think what’s being used to prove it in the OP is a bit questionable.
Now onto Mario Party 5. Bowser’s plot is admittedly kind of weird in this game. He does pretty consistently mention about destroying or ruining the dreams in Dream Depot, and Misstar does indeed confirm this idea, as well as being pretty relieved whenever he moves away from a dream world. However, he’s also constantly alluding to there being an ulterior motive, only for Koopa Kid to keep cutting him off before he can reveal it. Focusing on the relevant part for now, whilst you could point to how Bowser has a knack for corrupting places he wants to take over, which can be interpreted as ruining it, he actually already has a dream fitting his general motif, which is both outright called Bowser Nightmare and referred to as “my dream” by him. He seems pretty content with it, so it doesn’t seem like he wants to make the other dreams like it, and destroying a dream would indeed ruin it, so I can definitely support the idea of being Low 2-C. I see people are asking me to translate the Japanese text, but I’d like to get my initial thoughts down first so I’ll comment on that later. But that ulterior motive I mentioned earlier, no one’s mentioned this. What was Bowser’s plan? Well, he sees Dream Depot as yet another thing that can make his wish come true, and he admits to the hero at the end that he wanted to fight someone strong. This might have been some Touhou-style “I caused an issue so strong people would come and try to stop me” shenanigans, and destroying dream worlds can definitely achieve this goal, especially since Misstar seems to think his plan would have affected people’s ability to dream, affecting Dream Depot as a whole, which corrupting wouldn’t have pulled off, so I support the feat, but will definitely delve into the Japanese texts.
Finally, The Origami King. King Olly already had big plans, as he wanted to target the entire world, not just limiting himself to a few kingdoms. However, the fact he’ll even reach out to the sun… seems kind of weird, since it only really seems to affect the desert and going to any other area will show sunlight (and since it’s pretty heavily implied that the Legion of Stationary have been working on their respective plots from the start, not just “oh, looks like one of my comrades fell, better get to work in my area”, this shouldn’t just be gameplay mechanics as I doubt Hole Puncher would only achieve this after the defeat of Rubber Band, the scenes with Bobby returning to the ship, sacrificing himself, and Mario reassuring Olivia). With that said, it does, at the very least, seem to support the idea that King Olly is looking to spread his goal far and wide, though clearly it’s just that: supporting evidence, so I won’t look too deeply into it. I agree that folding the very fabric of reality definitely isn’t limited to just a planet, though I’m not too sure how well it can be applied as a feat. We’ve denied others with more evidence here before, but I don’t wholly disagree (especially not on that basis), so I’m neutral on it.
DragonLord
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I believe the Shadow Queen has been pretty unanimously disagreed with, The Dream Depot and King Olly probably needs more details
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I still agree with the 3-A feat, but ultimately it is not relevant to the scaling imo, so I will be going over the other feats for now.
Also Emile makes a great point. Bowser wiping a dream from existence seems weird without context, but in Mario, Dreams are entire universes and it has been implied in the lore multiple times. It's truly not any different than saying "I will destroy a universe", especially if it affects people's ability to dream in the first place. The Dream universe would have to be wiped from existence if people couldn't dream about said place anymore.
When something is hyperbolic, it is something that does not make sense under any circumstance. Bowser scales to the main cast who is already tier 2, namely Mario. The fact that he scales to him and others is a feat already. So why does Bowser destroying universes by himself sound hyperbolic when he is consistently shown to scale to that energy? How is it not a valid interpretation? You also said artifacts and devices is how he got his feats but how is that even relevant? The base Bowser is already tier 2 regardless of amps.
Also Emile makes a great point. Bowser wiping a dream from existence seems weird without context, but in Mario, Dreams are entire universes and it has been implied in the lore multiple times. It's truly not any different than saying "I will destroy a universe", especially if it affects people's ability to dream in the first place. The Dream universe would have to be wiped from existence if people couldn't dream about said place anymore.
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with what emile said, I am neutral about shadow queen, although it has been implied that only the planet would be destroyed, the game is not limited to that as we also explore places like the moon, what I am going to say is more personal but I remember that it also described the crystal stars with the power of the heavens, and if I remember correctly it also implied that it could affect beyond the planet and it could be consistent with the words of destroying the universe that we are provided, but it could also be just a way of saying that it will destroy the planet.
bowser's idea definitely sounds like corruption, but looking at it further, I agree with the idea that he was going to destroy the dream world, does bowser already have his own dream, why would bowser give so much importance to one dream if he has so many other dreams to corrupt and thus easily replace his dream world?
Con esto en mente, la idea de destruir el mundo de los sueños tiene más sentido, arruinaría los sueños de los demás, ya que no habría ningún sueño en primer lugar y, por lo tanto, conduciría a la destrucción de Dream Depot al evitar que las personas soñen.
with that said I'm neutral on king ollie, while we know he affected the sun itself, other zones seem to still have daylight, but it's also possible that the sun was stolen when mario and olivia were still in the cave.
(personally I do not consider that going to other places and the sun is still there is something with the story, it is mechanics of the game by the mere fact that the story stated enough that the sun was gone).
now with that in mind, the feat as such is true the bending of space and time and that it affects much more than the planet, but i feel that there could be a problem if holo punch is supposed to steal the sun before the cave event.
bowser's idea definitely sounds like corruption, but looking at it further, I agree with the idea that he was going to destroy the dream world, does bowser already have his own dream, why would bowser give so much importance to one dream if he has so many other dreams to corrupt and thus easily replace his dream world?
Con esto en mente, la idea de destruir el mundo de los sueños tiene más sentido, arruinaría los sueños de los demás, ya que no habría ningún sueño en primer lugar y, por lo tanto, conduciría a la destrucción de Dream Depot al evitar que las personas soñen.
with that said I'm neutral on king ollie, while we know he affected the sun itself, other zones seem to still have daylight, but it's also possible that the sun was stolen when mario and olivia were still in the cave.
(personally I do not consider that going to other places and the sun is still there is something with the story, it is mechanics of the game by the mere fact that the story stated enough that the sun was gone).
now with that in mind, the feat as such is true the bending of space and time and that it affects much more than the planet, but i feel that there could be a problem if holo punch is supposed to steal the sun before the cave event.
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- Thread starter
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I'll drop the Shadow Queen feat, however the last two I'm in support for.
For why King Olly's feat is considered Low 2-C, folding the fabric of reality (space-time) is directly Olly changing it as a whole to reform into how he wants it, as a tl;dr.
For why King Olly's feat is considered Low 2-C, folding the fabric of reality (space-time) is directly Olly changing it as a whole to reform into how he wants it, as a tl;dr.
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well in that case for now I agree with the two feats we have left.
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What is the context behind this? Folding the fabric of reality is vague and unquantifiable on its own. Is this happening on a universal scale? And what does folding entail in this scenario?
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From what others told me on Discord, he more or less says he will fold up the entire world and cause it to collapse. And while it's up to debate whether it means planet Earth or the entire Universe, it more likely means the latter considering his minions who are much weaker have been known to warp the Sun, and he appears to be including the stars in the sky when he "Folds the world".
I have asked them to perhaps copy/paste the Japanese text and give a proper translations on the thread, but it seems fairly accurate to my knowledge. Lucky Emile seems pretty good at interpreting it.
I have asked them to perhaps copy/paste the Japanese text and give a proper translations on the thread, but it seems fairly accurate to my knowledge. Lucky Emile seems pretty good at interpreting it.
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- Thread starter
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Re-look at the text just a bit longer in the video.
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Again, that's just the American localized text, NoA tends to be infamous with translations. Japanese text says it.
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Logic wise, if a weaker boss is able to warp the sun, not sure why the strongest form of the final boss would be less effective
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The fact stars like the sun and such are included definitely makes me lean towards "World" being the universe here.
I suppose to help everyone it would be nice to have the screenshot or timestamp of when the world statement happens.
I suppose to help everyone it would be nice to have the screenshot or timestamp of when the world statement happens.
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It's in the same scene as to where he states fabric of reality.
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Here.
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Yeah he does seem to equate reality itself to world there as well.
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The feats from Mario Party 5 and The Origami King seem to be generally accepted after bringing up the translations and extra context. More input wouldn't hurt, however.
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I'm still not sold on using the Mario Party 5 example; I still feel like it's a prep time feat with corruption most likely. But the Origami King feat is fine to me.
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LuckyEmile made a post with translations and such as to why it can't be corruption from both the in-game text and the story.
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Bowser
Bowser, sometimes known as King Koopa (Japanese: 大魔王クッパ, Daimaō Kuppa or "Great Demon King Koopa"), is the main antagonist of the Mario series and the King of the Koopas. He has repeatedly kidnapped or attempted to kidnap Princess Peach and take over the Mushroom Kingdom. He has also attempted...
vsbattles.fandom.com
Tier: At least 4-A, likely Low 2-C
I will argue this here to prevent derailment.
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That Low 2-C is exclusively from Grand Star scaling (Which is iffy because the Prima Guides are iffy) and has nothing to do with destroying dream worlds.Bowser
Bowser, sometimes known as King Koopa (Japanese: 大魔王クッパ, Daimaō Kuppa or "Great Demon King Koopa"), is the main antagonist of the Mario series and the King of the Koopas. He has repeatedly kidnapped or attempted to kidnap Princess Peach and take over the Mushroom Kingdom. He has also attempted...
Tier: At least 4-A, likely Low 2-C
I will argue this here to prevent derailment.
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You liked to the thread we're on.
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Bowser has 2 Low 2-C durability feats in Sammer Kingdom and the Grand Star generator blowing up in his face
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Yes we know. But Bowser has Low 2-C power output in base, so it's valid either way. It's possible for him to destroy the dream worlds entirely.
also this was by accident lol
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Alright, Super Paper Mario and Grand Star scaling. Still no MP5 stuff, unless I misinterpreted vert's words.
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Also Bowser having Low 2-C feats dosn't matter, I'm talking about the MP5 feat in a vacuum.
Attack Potency and Destructive Ability are completely different things. Bowser having universal AP dosn't make a feat of Universal destruction more valid.
Attack Potency and Destructive Ability are completely different things. Bowser having universal AP dosn't make a feat of Universal destruction more valid.
DragonLord
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Technically speaking all the Uni feats happened after MP5 expect for Wario World’s Black Jewel, which will be moved, i believe there was evidence Mario and Bowser get stronger each game?, so using future feats to support past ones may be a bit shakey
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It... doesn't matter if there's no Mario Party 5 stuff. He has the energy required to destroy universes. It is entirely valid to say he can because he has the tier in the first place. And he isn't using an artifact, it's just him and only him. The only way this isn't a valid interpretation is if Bowser isn't Low 2-C and therefore he can't affect the space time continuum of a dream.
This isn't on the profiles yet, but Mario already scales to Power Star Bowser, so Base Bowser downscales from Mario even during this old time period. This was accepted on the previous thread, but Blaze wanted to discuss scaling and other feats first before adding it.
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Like I said, Attack Potency and Destructive Capacity are different things. Having Universal AP =/= The ability to destroy a universe.
DragonLord
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tbh I feel like the feat should be provable on it’s own merits if it’s to be used as supporting evidence for Uni+ Bowser (specially since the Uni feats are only on the Likely Key and not just the base one), hell I don’t really see any indication that Bowser was going to destroy the timeline let alone destroy the Universe all at once
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I'll respond to all of this stuff later tonight.
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The Jap translations do seem to focus on destruction.
Regardless even if this was corruption that's an upgrade in hax range right there for Base and Bowser is able to quickly traverse dreams which are uni-sized. Overall MP5 is impressive no matter what
Regardless even if this was corruption that's an upgrade in hax range right there for Base and Bowser is able to quickly traverse dreams which are uni-sized. Overall MP5 is impressive no matter what
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