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Adding 3 More Feats to Mario
- Thread starter DatOneWeeb
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Downgrades certainly aren’t necessary, the feats proposed here just won’t be used
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I mean if it isn't destruction and people still want to roll with "it's corruption" that's still an upgrade regardless due to affecting universes. There are no downgrades here.
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Actually, just correcting some misconceptions. First of all, the "Overtime" or "One shot" policy is mostly for finite structures 3-A and below, High 3-A cannot be divided linearly due to half of infinity still being infinity. Though there are other reasons for Tier 2 stuff such as the existence of chain reactions (Though you also need to proof of something is a chain reaction) Or usage of hax as opposed to physically destroying the timeline. But destroying the timeline via hours of constant punching is still Tier 2. Superboy Prime is a prime example of this. Though as for 2-C or 2-B sized multiverses, destroying the timelines one by one could be lowballed to Low 2-C.
But I realize some of those points aren't being discussed here, but just wanted to clarify other details. Folding the very fabric of reality if taken literally sounds more of a range or hax feat yeah and not something we take literally without further details. But folding and destroying the entire world, we do need context of timeframe and what world refers to; it usually means planet and overtime and not all at once. But we already have minibosses who destroy more than just the planet. They didn't consider effecting the sun and moon to be the entire world despite scope already being larger than Earth. And also, his primary target was "Folding every Toad in existence into Origami." Due to King Olly having a borderline racism against Toads and thinking they're just an ugly species; which I understand that's a pretty shocking plot for a Mario game, but we've seen much darker before this game. Which also may not sound Universal, but we have seen in many other Mario games that Toads are a species that also populate a multitude of other galaxies. Though it could be said that Olly might not know about those details.
So, I'm more neutral now regarding Olly's feat. And I agree with DRB regarding the Mario Party 5 example.
But I realize some of those points aren't being discussed here, but just wanted to clarify other details. Folding the very fabric of reality if taken literally sounds more of a range or hax feat yeah and not something we take literally without further details. But folding and destroying the entire world, we do need context of timeframe and what world refers to; it usually means planet and overtime and not all at once. But we already have minibosses who destroy more than just the planet. They didn't consider effecting the sun and moon to be the entire world despite scope already being larger than Earth. And also, his primary target was "Folding every Toad in existence into Origami." Due to King Olly having a borderline racism against Toads and thinking they're just an ugly species; which I understand that's a pretty shocking plot for a Mario game, but we've seen much darker before this game. Which also may not sound Universal, but we have seen in many other Mario games that Toads are a species that also populate a multitude of other galaxies. Though it could be said that Olly might not know about those details.
So, I'm more neutral now regarding Olly's feat. And I agree with DRB regarding the Mario Party 5 example.
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Then how the mario party 5 feat will be
interpreted? Espacially since Me, Alice, and Blaze made it clear?
interpreted? Espacially since Me, Alice, and Blaze made it clear?
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Yeah, if not destruction then it has to be considered hax right? Still an upgrade.
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Not sure why it's hax when the same refutes can be applied to it as well 
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Oh interesting. I never saw that before. So he has uni potency hax. Awesome.
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I guess? But, like i said don't the "hurr durr we don't see him do that so it's not legt" or "it only effects what's inside the dream (this one is weird and came out of nowhere)" arguments apply to this as well?
It will be dishonesty if we accept this just to prevent the AP tiering
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I am still waiting for this, if anybody has that.
And if we don't know how he's going to do that, then yeah, similar argument can be made for that. I'll see what DRB and Medeus have to say about that, but I honestly think that the statement should have been expanded upon in the show in order for us to use it in any legitimate capacity.
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What do you mean by official English translation?
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Bowser simply says "I'll ruin __ dream by filling it with my own dreams!" but sometimes he'll use "and" instead of "by" in the English translations, but we take the original Japanese ones as having more authority.
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@Ant No for reasons AKAsama and DDM have already stated. We don't know how it can be done. Without that information provided and no feats prior, we can't even offer him a benefit of doubt, no matter how many times he or Misstar stated this. I've grown tired of this topic.
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Occam's razor says otherwise, he doesn't have any Machine, mcguffins or anything just himself was stated to destroy dreams and replace them which are universes by himself and misstar and the narrative as well, the simplest explanation is he going to do that by himself (i Can't beleive I'm repeating myself cuz you ignored me and alice's points and nitpicked the information)
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Honestly i refuse to close the thread until i know how we will interpreted the feat not leave it because "muh i don't know how it can be done" even tho occam's razor exists
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I ask for the official English translation and I get three different translations I don't even know the source of. A point to note for future reference is that, when somebody asks for a translation, always provide the source. Nobody is obligated to believe anything that is put between quotes and handed over to me by some user who is not an official translator. Because, well, as you can see, they can be inaccurate and differ in terms of detail and context.
So, if somebody asks me for the translation, I provide the source directly, not words within quotation marks.
The problem with this is, the question should have been clearly answered by the show. We don't have to fill the gaps with any assumptions when we are not certain. When things are left vague, we simply dismiss it and don't use it. And DRB makes some good points as to why using that interpretation is not a good idea. Occam's razor does not support it either.
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I think this misunderstanding came down to your wording. There is no "official translation", only the English localisation. The whole reason people are very particular on this site about the original Japanese source appears to be because localisations can change things... and looking at this particular example, there is quite the clash. But since the English localisation is still an official product, I can see why we'd still like to look at it (not to mention the language barrier).
Also, please note in the same way nobody is obligated to believe taking the word for it, not everyone has the means of providing this evidence in the form of scans and nor are they really obligated (after all, if one were to doubt it, they can just look into it themselves; self-research is important, after all). I get the point you're trying to make (scans definitely help and are naturally preferable), but it comes off as a little rude and doesn't take people's situations into account. I can understand that some people are getting bored of this topic, and not having your request fulfilled can be quite annoying, but we should still try to be kind to one another.
There are six maps in which Bowser mentions this, and it varies from map to map. Some say "by filling" (Pirate Dream and Future Dream), and others "and fill" (Sweet Dream, Undersea Dream, Rainbow Dream and Toy Dream). Meanwhile, in the Japanese version of the game, he keeps it consistent with "このX・ドリームをこわしてワガハイのユメにしてやるのだー！！" (P, F, S, U, R, T). The verbs he uses here are こわして, a conjugation of 壊す (to destroy), and "ワガハイのユメにしてやる" would mean turning it into or replacing it with his own dream. (I'm mostly providing this so you can see the contrast between the two localisations, such as how there is no mention of filling)
What would Occam's razor lead to here, do you believe?
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I’d say so, no point in going in circles if it’s been rejected
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Just going to quote what DontTalkDT said, Occam's Razor is not particularly a very good practice for any debate. Instead of us thinking inside the box and relying on the most simplicated answer, we should start thinking outside the box and avoid using assumptions altogether. It's obvious he plans to do something, we just do not if it's something via his own natural powers or if he needs time to come up with something to do most of the work.
But aside from that, it is not very well known what method Bowser uses to destroy the dream worlds and create them individually. The best we can give is him being Tier 2 via prep time. It's unknown if he physically destroys it or even he takes time to construct universe/multiverse busting technologies. Or anywhere in between. He already has Low 2-C via prep time for reasons regarding the dream worlds but as said above; it's unknown of he physically one-shots them or if he uses devices. Or if he raises a massive empire or if he simply corrupts them with environmental destruction.
But aside from that, it is not very well known what method Bowser uses to destroy the dream worlds and create them individually. The best we can give is him being Tier 2 via prep time. It's unknown if he physically destroys it or even he takes time to construct universe/multiverse busting technologies. Or anywhere in between. He already has Low 2-C via prep time for reasons regarding the dream worlds but as said above; it's unknown of he physically one-shots them or if he uses devices. Or if he raises a massive empire or if he simply corrupts them with environmental destruction.
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it's only a matter of time before mario becomes high 4-c again...
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I understand that not everyone has the means to provide scans, but I didn't ask any particular member. I asked the entire thread in general. And if you are coming to someone presenting a case for any content revision, you ARE obligated to provide scans if asked (by you, I mean anybody from the positive side). One can doubt stuff even if they haven't researched, it is the job of the positive side to provide each and every scan that is necessary for the change and remove doubts. It is not the job of the evaluators to research each and every verse, they just make the best decision with the amount of evidence provided to them.
I wasn't rude in my earlier comment, it was just a suggestion for future with reasons. But you probably thought that because you misunderstood something as it's hard to grasp the tone from text.
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I totally agree with you on that but just to add thing, the negative side also needs to provide scans for his counter arguments (just saying)
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This is true, and you're right that in the general sense scans are needed (in the OP of a thread so everyone's on the same page/to prove it's not baseless, and in the CRT in general to use for proof for publification should it pass...). I've seen some threads even made by staff lack these, but they're very appreciated and, in my opinion, a great help, so I definitely agree with you here. However, since the context seemed to be a more general debate/conversation, it came off as less mandatory. Sorry for misinterpreting your message, as I knew there wasn't any hostility, it just gave off a lecturing tone and I felt it might be worth pointing out why this may have happened. However, I appreciate the incentive you were giving for the advice.
On the main topic (hopefully all the scans worked for you, please say if they didn't), what do you think?
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In every translation, he is basically saying that he'll ruin the dream and fill it with his own dream. My goal of asking for the translation was to see if I can discern anything that tells me how he's gonna do what he claimed. Going by official translations alone, it seems to me like he was just talking about destroying them in the sense of corrupting them with his own dream, but that is only my interpretation. It's honestly very vague as it doesn't really answer "how". So my stance hasn't changed.
Also, I'd like to take this moment and say that, I prefer sticking to the official translation in lack of better options. The meanings do not depend on the kanji alone, they are dependent on the entire context of the sentences, or paragraphs. And sure, there can be mistakes in them, but I think the official translators are professionals and better suited to analyze what something means looking at the kanji, the context and everything. With all due respect to everyone who helps out by translating, and no offense meant, I don't trust fan translations much because I usually don't have any strong reason to believe their word or believe that those fans are better suited at this job than the professionals who are getting paid, except in very special exceptions.
Also, I'd like to take this moment and say that, I prefer sticking to the official translation in lack of better options. The meanings do not depend on the kanji alone, they are dependent on the entire context of the sentences, or paragraphs. And sure, there can be mistakes in them, but I think the official translators are professionals and better suited to analyze what something means looking at the kanji, the context and everything. With all due respect to everyone who helps out by translating, and no offense meant, I don't trust fan translations much because I usually don't have any strong reason to believe their word or believe that those fans are better suited at this job than the professionals who are getting paid, except in very special exceptions.
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I dunno but, nothing implies that they're using machines, like the cutscenes only showed him and koopa, no materials, no weapon or where they will get them, this honestly requires more proof espacially since there is many dreams like maaany dreams and he wants his plan to be accomplished, he ain't building a distruction weapon for each dream that's why i demanded to use occam's razor to do not keep on this overthinking
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This makes me think you didn't read alice's message about the translation way back, and you do realize that even official translations can be wrong, take DB or SMRPG and other series as evidence
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So Emerl couldn't have simply fallen for whatever roundabout reasoning and now Bowser apparently "could've used a machine/macguffin" to physically destroy dreams despite no evidence supporting it. I'll at least give the ED argument some credit but the machine/macguffin thing seems pretty asinine to argue to me.
I guess Cell's feat is invalidated because he could've meant blowing up only the Sun and thus blowing up the solar system with the supernova via chain reaction and supporting media from some game supports that. We never actually get to see him do it.
I hope whatever revisions for Kirby in the future don't utilise the vague Void Termina "will destroy all/bring an end to everything" statement to support AP upgrades either, cause accepting those would be hypocritical.
That's my piece. It seems clear to me these aren't going to be accepted so just close it.
I guess Cell's feat is invalidated because he could've meant blowing up only the Sun and thus blowing up the solar system with the supernova via chain reaction and supporting media from some game supports that. We never actually get to see him do it.
I hope whatever revisions for Kirby in the future don't utilise the vague Void Termina "will destroy all/bring an end to everything" statement to support AP upgrades either, cause accepting those would be hypocritical.
That's my piece. It seems clear to me these aren't going to be accepted so just close it.
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Please do. As stated by Maverick earlier, we are just repeating this argument back and forth with the support for the tier being (Let's be honest) pretty weak as the argument is that Bowser has no macguffin onscreen, which is fair, but doesn't check out everything else as it still doesn't elaborate on how Bowser plans to achieve his plan which is the real reason why we can't accept the feat. Especially from a character with no feat prior to this game to support it. Top it off with Occam's Razor not being a good argument in general for reason's provided by DDM and AKA sama laying out very solid points about how we can't mindlessly accept it and this feat is moot. Cell is a horrible example. Not only it actually has statements from several guides and characters alike, we actually know HOW: With his Solar Kamehameha.
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DragonLord
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Correction here, the page on Cell actually does use the Feat from the Game where Cell blows up a Star
It’s still calc’d at Solar System level
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Every time
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I'll go ahead and close this out then.
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