Accelerator's reflection and the No Limits Fallacy - You know the drill

[DontTalkDT]

So, I'm sure everyone that debates Accelerator knows the debate:

"Can Accelerator reflect an energy beam stronger than anything he has demonstrated to manipulate, because his reflection is hax and doesn't relate to magnitude, or is that a No Limits Fallacy."

The guys in the To Aru Discussion thread thought it is time to debate that once again, so let's get this over with.


My opinion on the topic is what is currently written in the note of Accelerators page:

Note: There are two schools of interpretation about Accelerators passive reflection. One interpretations states that his reflection only changes the direction of the vectors, but does not involve their magnitude. By that interpretation the magnitude of the attack does not matter, but only whether or not the attack has a vector and if Accelerator can calculate it. Another interpretation assumes that the ability involves magnitude and by that is limited to reflecting attacks of the energy Accelerator was shown to control. None of the two interpretations could give certain proof for their interpretation to this point. The current durability statistic of Accelerator is made by assuming the latter interpretation.

Or differently said: Maybe it is hax, but unless we get certain proof of that better not assume and give him a stat.

Opinions?

 

[VoidGoji]

Iirc, there are some statements about his reflection/redirection ignoring magnitude and quantity, and people using "special means to bypass that". I'm going to try to find the quotes later.

 

[Scrlk666777]

I don't mind either way.

While I do believe that the magnitude doesn't matter and should be removed. He reflected Coronzon's universeal attack that she has used against Touma not long before. That should be enough prove that magnitude doesn't matter where reflection is concerned and only the direction and if Accel understands the vectors count. I think most also ignore magnitude anyway.

However, I also don't mind setting a limit, which should be universeal due to reflecting Coronzon's attack and keeping the note attached to it.

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

Considering he blocked Coronzons Universal attack in base form I think it's high time this gets removed. it never made sense to begin with and most versus threads I see completely ignore the dura statistic because they know magnitude doesn't matter.

 

[Potato_Gambit]

I agree with everything TIHYDDWBE said. Considering what just happened in the LN, it should get removed. My logic has always been that, if you can overpower Accel's re-Direction area, you can overpower something like Mirio Togata's intangibility by going to the gym & getting bigger muscles. Neither makes any sense.

 

[LazyHunter]

Well, as I've mentioned in the discussion thread, I personally think that giving Accelerator's vector redirection/reflection a Durability is nonsense, because that's not how it works at all nor how it's treated by Kamachi in the series. There's this comparison to Kagun/Bersi made by Kamachi in the afterword of NT4, straight up said to have an infinite ceiling, for example.

He could nullify all fatal attacks, but he also had a sword spell that increases its destructive power every time he was attacked. Thus, when facing a fierce attack by the enemy, he could use a spell that has an infinite ceiling. This is different from Accelerator in that it's not the control of just one attack, but that the thing that's worth noting is that once the power increases, he could maintain such destructive power when fighting the enemy in the future. As his name suggested, he really was an inflating bastard.

But I understand why we limit it to his best showing, so overall I don't mind it.

 

[Zensum]

I agree with the first interpretation since the second one is baseless.

 

[Agnaa]

Even if neither side can give certain proof, if one side has evidence and the other doesn't, as is apparently the case here, then the side with evidence should be the one we accept. i.e. the first interpretation.

This is all assuming no-one later comes along with evidence pointing towards the second interpretation btw.

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

Downplay for the sake of downplay is no better than wanking a char for the sake of it imo.

I mean how many times does it need to be said in the ln Accelerator can control any and all vectors? The icing on the cake is he just nosold a universal attack in the new vol.

 

[AguilaR101]

Isn't speed still a factor though? Doesn't his reflection have a lag that can easily be exploited by anyone going faster than anything he has ever shown to reflect?

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

Speed faster than his calculations can react to can bypass his shield but that doesn't mean anything here

 

[Scrlk666777]

Isn't speed still a factor though?
Doesn't his reflection have a lag that can easily be exploited by anyone going faster than anything he has ever shown to reflect?

Speed has never been shown to be an issue for him. Mina was able to bypass his reflection completely but that was probably down to being of something that Accel couldn't yet comprehend. It was never really made clear though why she could bypass his reflection. Her better calculation speed also made it so he couldn't land a hit on her due to her higher calculation ability.

There isn't a lag either from my memory.

I suppose though one can make a debate either way if speed can blitz his shield.

 

[Malox1696]

Generally speed is important, but he can already stop light, u can simply overpower accel reflection by complexity of the attack, make an attack with so many variables that accel can't calculate them and it gets through, that's how mina has done it, she could control every molecule of her body, so she just made it move with so many variable that accel calculation ability could not keep up, as mina has much more calculation power than accel

btw accel interacts with magnitude but can't directly change it, for example if he wants to stop a bullet instead of making that magnitude of the object 0 he makes the sum of the vectors 0(example:initial force <---- 50 he doesn't make it <----0 but 25--><--25 so the sum is 0), same thing when he empowers something, he just adds other forces/vectors and optimize the one already affecting the object, he doesn't just multiply magnitude

 

[Scrlk666777]

Mina bypassing his reflecting is not overpowering. The best example of someone overpowering it was Nephthys, who overpowered his reflection due to her abnormal body and tolerance to pain. It also helped that she could regenerate after her leg was badly twisted. That's the only time his reflection has been overpowered, the rest either bypassed it completely ie. Aiwass, IB and Mina or found ways around it ie. Kakine and Amata.

 

[Reyzakurrota]

Remember mina body is made up from griomoire

 

[Malox1696]

nah magic gods body are non sense, they can talk with no air and are not really made of flesh and blood, obv their vector are in part unknown to him, same for the GD cabal grimories, he can block and control the physical attack but not all the other part as he can't really implement them in formulas unless he has 545 help

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Could someone explain how Accel's barriers were bypassed in canon by those people that were named? I know it doesn't matter too much for the sake of the thread but could you humor me?

Also yeah if the dude reflected a universal attack then it's clear that power doesn't matter to the dude and it's pre hax.

 

[Scrlk666777]

nah magic gods body are non sense, they can talk with no air and are not really made of flesh and blood, obv their vector are in part unknown to him, same for the GD cabal grimories, he can block and control the physical attack but not all the other part as he can't really implement them in formulas unless he has 545 help

Accel's reflection didn't fail against Neph though, it wasn't like before where like Aiwass or Mina, his reflection was basically ignored.

 

[Reyzakurrota]

Technically unknown matter that doesnt follow the physical laws can byspass accel reflection. But due to accel calculation he can analyze that unknown matter and include them to the barrier just like kakine twisted matter. But some higher unknown matter from magic being like mina, neph, or golden down magic said that accel didnt familiar so accel habe trouble to calculated them

 

[Scrlk666777]

Could someone explain how Accel's barriers were bypassed in canon by those people that were named? I know it doesn't matter too much for the sake of the thread but could you humor me?

Also yeah if the dude reflected a universal attack then it's clear that power doesn't matter to the dude and it's pre hax.

Let's see. I'm guessing you mean completely bypassed.

You have Aiwass who was able to bypass reflection due to unknown laws that were unknown to Accel at the time.

You have IB which can bypass through his reflection due to being a power nullifier/negater.

You have Mina Mathers who could bypass his reflection, most likely because she was a grimoire. If I remember correctly Mathers was also able to bypass reflection due to this reason.

Telesma has also been known to somewhat bypass his reflection due to it's divine nature.

You also have Amata and Kakine who both used tricks to get around reflection.

Kakine used his dark matter to change the properties of light and Amata used the infamous Kihara counter.

 

[Malox1696]

her legs do get reflected but the impact does not cause as i said MG body are abnormal they don't follow any rules their body itself is not natural and something created by magic, especially for neph

btw we have other instance of accel having problem with magical body in the previous volume too, look at his fights with the GD he can block but not completely reflect cause they have a body made by a grimore which is indestructible

but as always it's not a problem of power but of rules as accel has 0 knowledge about magic, so he can't interfere with it's rules

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

Could someone explain how Accel's barriers were bypassed in canon by those people that were named? I know it doesn't matter too much for the sake of the thread but could you humor me?
Also yeah if the dude reflected a universal attack then it's clear that power doesn't matter to the dude and it's pre hax.

well really it would be high complex multiversal, but outside of the wiki it would be universal. i'll save the arguments for that whenever that crt happens.

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

For the people confused about Mina Mathers: she did not bypass his vector shield simply because she was a grimoire, she could just outcalculate accelerators calculations to the point he can't reflect her attacks. this is made very clear with quotes from that vol.

We should stay on track here though. Though it's apparent what the result of the discussion is.

 

[DontTalkDT]

However, I also don't mind setting a limit, which should be universeal due to reflecting Coronzon's attack and keeping the note attached to it.

That is interesting debate point in itself.

If he actually reflected the flaming sword then we don't need this debate. We should list it outright due to the fact that it is universal, where hax stop either way.

Question is if we assume he did or if he interrupted the chant.

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

Coronzons magick is not limited to the flaming sword.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Could someone explain how Accel's barriers were bypassed in canon by those people that were named? I know it doesn't matter too much for the sake of the thread but could you humor me?

Mainly 4 methods.

1. If you manage the reverse your attack in the extremely tiny and unknown time window between him starting to reflect and finishing the calculation to do so, he will reflect the reversed attack, pulling it towards him.

2. Kakine used a whitelist problem. Accelerator reflects everything except what he needs to function, like sunlight, sound within bearable ranges, air for breathing etc. Kakine used his physics breaking abilities to create stuff like sunlight that fits within the parameters of what he lets through to be able to see, but still somehow used harm. Accelerator patched those, though.

3. Power Nullification

4. Attacks without vectors or with vectors that are so alien that Accelerator can't calculate them properly.

 

[Zensum]

Could someone explain how Accel's barriers were bypassed in canon by those people that were named? I know it doesn't matter too much for the sake of the thread but could you humor me?

Also yeah if the dude reflected a universal attack then it's clear that power doesn't matter to the dude and it's pre hax.

Dark Matter: Applied unknown physics to simple vectors which his filter didn't account for at the time.

Telesma: Unknown Laws that didn't exist in real world. Aiwass: Unknown Inputs like above.

Mina Mathers: She used what was essentially a benchmark to test his calculation capacity but it overcame him the moment she made each individual vector too complex, as Mina surpasses him in calculation ability.

These are just of the top of my head. The main point is it all has to do with his understanding and processing.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Coronzons magick is not limited to the flaming sword.

Not all of Cornzon's stuff is universal, though. The only thing of which we really know it is the flaming sword.

 

[Scrlk666777]

That is interesting debate point in itself.
If he actually reflected the flaming sword then we don't need this debate. We should list it outright due to the fact that it is universal, where hax stop either way.

Question is if we assume he did or if he interrupted the chant.

My personal opinion is that she did finish the attack.

"My right hand contains Nuit of Resurrection and my left hand contains Hadit of Vengeance. Combined, they form the Circle of Ra-Hoor-Khuit, which…"

"Yo."

The special attack released by Great Demon Coronzon clashed head-on with the Level 5 who could manipulate any and all vectors.

We didn't see her finish the chant because it was interrupted by Accel's "Yo"

But the fact it was followed up by "The special attack released by Great Demon Coronzon" suggests she did. I think there wouldn't have been any need for that bit especially when none of her other attacks have been said to be special, not to mention she has just used it to oliberate IB.

Basically I think there is more evidence suggesting it was the same attack than it wasn't.

That's my take on it anyway.

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

Not all of Cornzon's stuff is universal, though. The only thing of which we really know it is the flaming sword.

That is incorrect. well sortof. Yes coronzons normal magic is not universal, however, the Magick that uses the circle for Ra-Hoor-Khuit. Coronzon uses is indeed universal. Or High complex multiversal on this wiki. (I'll delve into that for the proper CRT whenever that's made we should just stick to this topic)

Now, I would like to point out something important. the time point where the narration compares Coronzon's Magick to Othinus' Gungnir is after her chant, and before the magick flaming sword phrase.


"Every number is the same. My right hand contains Nuit of Resurrection. Watch as the possibilities expand and surpass the bounds of the finite. My left hand contains Hadit of Vengeance. The smallest point gathers and concentrates all forces to create a single meaning. Thus, an attack shall be released from the infinite acceleration of the Circle of Ra-Hoor-Khuit and shall appear on the surface layer of this world."

This was the ultimate attack that rivaled a Magic God's lance and had utterly destroyed a certain boy despite the presence of Imagine Breaker.

(Later)

"Magick: Flaming_Sword. Manifest thyself through descent of the Sephirah and bathe him in thy power."

So what this means is, That when Coronzon uses Magick, (Not regular magic) It is Universal. Not just the Flame sword which is just one Magick spell (hence the colons, a list) now that is important to keep in mind

Now, Coronzon again uses this chant against Accel, except this time it is a invisible magick, that accelerator reflects and disperses.

"My right hand contains Nuit of Resurrection and my left hand contains Hadit of Vengeance. Combined, they form the Circle of Ra-Hoor-Khuit, which…"

"Yo."

The special attack released by Great Demon Coronzon clashed head-on with the Level 5 who could manipulate any and all vectors.

"Yo!"

A mass of invisible power scattered in every direction.

No.

It was torn apart by a human will.

Important things to note from this quote, and to debunk any "Accel interrupted her chant claims"

1. The Special attack is noted to be released by Coronzon. which means a successful launch of her attack. also note that it is called "special" (minor note for teh 238^21st time accel is mentioned to control any and all vectors)

2. A mass of invisble power scattered, the remnants of coronzons attack. a different style of "Magick" attack from Coronzon which is destroyed by Accel. As we have seen with the Magick:Flame sword and know it's not invisible, the Attack only appears after the chant is completed. Makes sense. Why else would you want to chant.


So Yeah. Universal Accel is 100% legit.

 

[Malox1696]

i think we should just remove the restriction and keep his AP as it is now cause that's the maximum damage he can do without using vector from the opponent attacks, but if he uses opponent vectors than his AP would scale with his opponent when he reflects

 

[DestinyDude0]

I agree with universal Accel as the highest limit. Feats suggest it, and it removes the NLF argument. That way everybody is happy.

The magnitude limitation was always weird anyways. You can't "overpower" a ghost's intangibility with more firepower, so why would Vector shields be any different?

 

[LazyHunter]

Off the top of my head, people/things that have hurt Accelerator despite his reflection.

1. Touma Kamijou and his Imagine Breaker: Because he nullifies the vector manipulation, obviously.

2. Amata Kihara: Exploits a loophole in the reflection by pulling back at the exact moment his attacks make contact with the field via microscopic level muscle control, thus causing Accelerator's power to pull the attack towards himself.

3. Teitoku Kakine: Analyzed Accelerator's reflection using his Dark Matter, and then modified his attacks with strange energies and vectors that made it so things like regular sunlight and wind were recognized as harmless by the field despite being able to hurt humans; at least until Accelerator patched up his reflection.

4. Sugitani: Imperfectly replicated Amata's technique.

5. Aiwass: Accelerator couldn't even understand how Aiwass and its vectors work, its wings completely bypassed his vector reflection without tricking it or nullifying it. Different laws at work than conventional and regular magic physics

6. Gabriel: Accelerator has issues with the Telesma-infused attacks of the archangel due to not understanding Telesma, and he cannot reflect them properly, neither at the right angle or at 100%, so he ends up getting battered by the Sweep. Different laws at work than conventional and regular magic physics

7. Fiamma's Eurasia-busting Telesma Bomb from Heaven: Telesma again, only this time so pure and potent that Accelerator could tell with a glance that it would go straight through his reflection like it wasn't even there like with Aiwass. Different laws at work than conventional and regular magic physics

8. Gremlin mook magicians sacrifice themselves to trick Accelerator into casting magic, causing his body to be harmed by the consequent rejection. Bypassing the reflection entirely by tricking Accelerator into hurting himself from the inside.

9. Accelerator speculates that a Vodoo-like attack like Cendrillon's glass slippers spell would hurt him due to the lack of vectors.

10. Mina Mathers' grimoire reconstruction can punch him because she can outcalculate his reflection.

11. Coronzon hurts him with a weird rebounding spell, presumably using weird laws like Aiwass.

12. Nephthys boosts Qlippah Puzzle 545's power to send it out of control, causing it affect Accelerator and make him lose control of his powers to basically make him hit himself.

13. Nephthys manages to tackle and kick him through his reflection. The oddity is noted by the narration, but no explanation is given as to how she forces her way through despite the reflection hurting her being proof it's working (she breaks her leg kicking him).

14. From Accelerator manga, the Qiong Qi, a Level 5 suit with Psychokinesis has some undescribed trick to get through the reflection, which it lends to another suit when they are linked and boosted. Appears to be calculation-based like Mina's, as when it tries to make a last ditch attack after Accelerator heavily damages it, it fails and Accelerator states it cannot reach him with calculations that sloppy.

15. From Accelerator manga again, the weird angelic worm thing Isaac Rosenthal/Taowu turns into can hurt Accelerator too. Due to the obvious halo/wings, this is angelic/Telesma/weird laws stuff that Accelerator cannot understand.

 

[Scrlk666777]

Should #9 really be on the list? Since this was only speculation that the curse might go past reflection but unlike the others it wasn't actually a fact and I think Aleister said recently, I'll try and find the quotes, that curses have direction to them.

 

[LazyHunter]

I mentioned it because one of the ways to hurt him is "use attack with no vectors", but it probably shouldn't be there, yeah.

 

[Reyzakurrota]

As mentioned above, attack that bypass accel reflection isnt about how powerfull an attack, but how strange that attack to accel calculation ability.

 

[Scrlk666777]

I do wonder if a lot of these will still work after recent events. If he's truly beyond Aeons now it's possible that Telesma and magic in the Aeons won't have an affect but that is a conversation for another time since anything right now is speculation.

 

[Malox1696]

for 11 it was actually explained why it passed, he let the rebound hit him so he could tell how much damage he did (3rd law of motion) but that worked against him

"I am a demon, but not from the Qliphoth. I am the Great Demon that dwells in the Abyss of the Sephiroth. The Sephiroth's 10 Sephirah and 22 pathways are also a conversion table for producing the supernatural by connecting the great universe of the world with the small universe of the body. Do you feel it? An arm is formed from Chesed and Gevurah and its five fingers control the five elements. The middle finger controls fire and the red of blood, which symbolizes the activity of the heart. You made a mistake when you accepted the rebounding force to measure how much damage you had done, one who remains in the human realm."

Simply put, the damage passed from his fist, up his arm, and to his heart.

Carelessly touching her would harm him.

When you thought about it, that was a lot like Accelerator's own reflection.

He would not have used that method had he known about this."

for 13 neph and MG body in general are magical and not human they don't even need to breath, they are more similar to angel body than human, but they are outside of the system as they are MG, so he can reflect the physical part but not the magical

 

[Promestein]

I think Accelerator's vector shield is kinda NLF, even with statements backing it up; I don't think we really let other bullshit (basically) invulnerability get away with the same shit. But, you know, it makes sense at the same time, so I'm kinda torn, honestly. It is hax defense.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

This is...unbelievably confusing, I'm sorry. Could you dumb it down for me, for lack of a better term?