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Accelerator's reflection and the No Limits Fallacy - You know the drill
- Thread starter DontTalkDT
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SchroKatze
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We actually use the interpretation that Accelerator's reflection is limited by magnitude/AP/strength of the vector.
We got some statements of that not being the case, since it completely ignores both magnitude and quantity, and all of the circumstances where his reflection was bypassed involved special tricks, weird existences that work by other laws and the like. He also reflected an universal attack in base, which further supports the interpretation that his reflection only use the direction part of the vector and not the rest.
We got some statements of that not being the case, since it completely ignores both magnitude and quantity, and all of the circumstances where his reflection was bypassed involved special tricks, weird existences that work by other laws and the like. He also reflected an universal attack in base, which further supports the interpretation that his reflection only use the direction part of the vector and not the rest.
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@LazyHunter: What is your opinion regarding Accelerator reflecting the flaming sword?
If we accept his reflection universe level via feats the actual debate on hax or no hax would become irrelevant.
If we accept his reflection universe level via feats the actual debate on hax or no hax would become irrelevant.
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The chant is abbreviated (likely to not break the flow of the scene with the long version) but it is identified as Coronzon's special attack (and Flaming_Sword is the only thing she does that I think qualifies as such, being much stronger than the rest of her magic and taking much more effort to do so) and the narration clearly states Accelerator dealt with it.
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There is something I want to ask on this. If the Limit is taken off due to the reflection being Hax would only the durability be affected but also the AP as well? I'm guessing not on the latter.
Also I'm not sure how it would work but if the limit is taken off the reflection due to Accel only needing to change the direction.
But let's say it's agreed he's universal due to stopping Coronzon's attack.
Would be Universal level in durablity with Hax?
Also I'm not sure how it would work but if the limit is taken off the reflection due to Accel only needing to change the direction.
But let's say it's agreed he's universal due to stopping Coronzon's attack.
Would be Universal level in durablity with Hax?
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If he understands the attack and it has a vector, he can reflect itThe real cal howard said:
If he has no idea what the attack even is or how it works, like Telesma and its physics, he can't reflect it.
Better?
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Yeah. But like, I'm not fully sure what it means to understand an attack. If he can understand that it moves in a direction, he can understand its vectors, right? Does he have to know the composition of the attack too or something? If you put him against Goku for example, does he have to understand ki?
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He has to know how it works by the laws of physics
Telesma and Dark Matter (At least at first) physically can't exist and thus give the finger to the laws
Telesma and Dark Matter (At least at first) physically can't exist and thus give the finger to the laws
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He doesn't have to understand how it works by the laws of physics.
He has to understand which vectors it has, as that is what he calculates and manipulates. The problem is that supernatural powers in index commonly have very strange vectors, a property not really commonly shared by other verses.
He has to understand which vectors it has, as that is what he calculates and manipulates. The problem is that supernatural powers in index commonly have very strange vectors, a property not really commonly shared by other verses.
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How can you have strange vectors? If you move, you have a vector.
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Does an intangible being have a vector if it's not present physically?
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We are talking about a kind of magic that is kinda overwriting reality and stuff. Like, consider that everytime anyone uses magic doing so involves movement in a phase.
So while in principle it should indeed be as easy as 3-D movement = 3-D vectors, magic is just breaking the rules to that extent.
So while in principle it should indeed be as easy as 3-D movement = 3-D vectors, magic is just breaking the rules to that extent.
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Cal, after everything fiction has pulled I don't think "Strange Vectors" is something we should question too much.
But yes, the general idea is an attack with strange vectors, or no vectors at all. Many magic attacks just don't behave in a way any normal physics model could predict because things like Telesma aren't from the normal world, or the attack just actualizes an effect without regard for something like vectors (like a curse).
You run the gamut from Styll and his physical humanoid made out of fire and cute stuff, to... well, there's a lot of weird shit.
But yes, the general idea is an attack with strange vectors, or no vectors at all. Many magic attacks just don't behave in a way any normal physics model could predict because things like Telesma aren't from the normal world, or the attack just actualizes an effect without regard for something like vectors (like a curse).
You run the gamut from Styll and his physical humanoid made out of fire and cute stuff, to... well, there's a lot of weird shit.
SchroKatze
They/Them- 3,874
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Accelerator can actually create/add "imaginary vectors" to his reflection and general power and affect "strange vectors" with it.
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Obviously, but the point in the first place is that vectors he's not familiar with are not gonna be in his calculations. It's a matter of killing him before he fixes his calculations and accounts for the new information.
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The thing is it would have to be something extremely strange and even divine to bypass his reflection completely without any tricks.
Dark matter for example was actually reflected just fine until Kakine changed it's properties to trick the reflections filter system but it wasn't just able to bypass because it was dark matter. That is often mistaken.
Magic, actually Accel has always shown to be able to reflect magic but because he doesn't or shall I say, didn't understand it, the reflection was disperated instead of redirected.
Neph was also a strange case since the reflection worked but yet didn't at the same time. This also led to a couple of questions.
After NT 22 though with Qliphah as an advisor in magic and him gaining the knowledge that he did, there's probably not much he can't reflect now even if he can't reflect it perfectly still.
Also one would probably have to kill him the very first time since if he learns his reflection is useless he's not going to just stand there like an idiot waiting for the next attack to come.
Dark matter for example was actually reflected just fine until Kakine changed it's properties to trick the reflections filter system but it wasn't just able to bypass because it was dark matter. That is often mistaken.
Magic, actually Accel has always shown to be able to reflect magic but because he doesn't or shall I say, didn't understand it, the reflection was disperated instead of redirected.
Neph was also a strange case since the reflection worked but yet didn't at the same time. This also led to a couple of questions.
After NT 22 though with Qliphah as an advisor in magic and him gaining the knowledge that he did, there's probably not much he can't reflect now even if he can't reflect it perfectly still.
Also one would probably have to kill him the very first time since if he learns his reflection is useless he's not going to just stand there like an idiot waiting for the next attack to come.
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Well, there's no reason Dark Matter wouldn't be reflected just fine. Kakine specifically made it so it would throw out strange vectors when he wanted to affect Accelerator, but nothing says that's what it naturally does no matter what.
Magic has vectors, most of it has it. A punching golem is still a rock moving fast, and Innocentus is like molten slag bashing you in a humanoid form.
Neph wasn't really weird, that was deliberate on Accelerator's part, then got ****** over it because of what Neph did with the energy he allowed to push him.
Yeah, but, that's the case fo any character that doesn't wanna be hit? Killing him in the first hit is not really a big necessity besides not letting him adapt his defenses.
Magic has vectors, most of it has it. A punching golem is still a rock moving fast, and Innocentus is like molten slag bashing you in a humanoid form.
Neph wasn't really weird, that was deliberate on Accelerator's part, then got ****** over it because of what Neph did with the energy he allowed to push him.
Yeah, but, that's the case fo any character that doesn't wanna be hit? Killing him in the first hit is not really a big necessity besides not letting him adapt his defenses.
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I think you are confusing Neph with Coronzon. It was Coronzon's attack he allowed to rebound of him, He was checking the damage but it kind of backfired on him and caused the clog in his throat.
Neph completely ambushed him and used Qliphah's possession to bypass past reflection.
The thing is Accel is extremely intelligent and crazily adaptable. He figured out Dark matter in a matter of a couple of minutes and was able to add that into his calculations. That is how long it takes him unless it's something completely unknown and divine in nature.
Accel also doesn't just have reflection but a variety of attacks that he can use thanks to VM.
Neph completely ambushed him and used Qliphah's possession to bypass past reflection.
The thing is Accel is extremely intelligent and crazily adaptable. He figured out Dark matter in a matter of a couple of minutes and was able to add that into his calculations. That is how long it takes him unless it's something completely unknown and divine in nature.
Accel also doesn't just have reflection but a variety of attacks that he can use thanks to VM.
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Yeah, I see that I did get it confused.
A battle can be rather easily decided in a few minutes, most of the time unless it's one of those off screen battles that last hours and days and etc, it is.. Kakine's fighting style and personality really didn't help him, despite the fact he didn't know Accel would adapt.
I really doubt it's a matter of his attacks or whatever. Unless there were special circumstances, you already had to deal with his attacks to get a hit in. So again, killing Accel in the first hit you get isn't, really a necessity? It's advantageous like in any other battle where the enemy doesn't have something that goes off on death.
A battle can be rather easily decided in a few minutes, most of the time unless it's one of those off screen battles that last hours and days and etc, it is.. Kakine's fighting style and personality really didn't help him, despite the fact he didn't know Accel would adapt.
I really doubt it's a matter of his attacks or whatever. Unless there were special circumstances, you already had to deal with his attacks to get a hit in. So again, killing Accel in the first hit you get isn't, really a necessity? It's advantageous like in any other battle where the enemy doesn't have something that goes off on death.
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To be honest all this is mostly a moot point anyway after NT 22 since he now understands magic a lot better and it's strange values and what he doesn't know he has Qliphah who he can summon or can come herself at any time. He also gained knowledge from the Sepiroth and was getting knowledge from the Qliphoth via Qliphah early in NT 22, plus he had the 78 cards installed in him. It's also likely he now understands strange laws like Aiwass. He really did have an epihany.
There's also the Clonoth and the unknown power boost that gives him besides the Platinum wings.
There's also the question if he's actually beyond aeons themselves now, the last one is a bit ambiguous though or should I say unknown at this point.
But I guess the last two points are rather unknown and more a topic of discussion for another time.
There's also the Clonoth and the unknown power boost that gives him besides the Platinum wings.
There's also the question if he's actually beyond aeons themselves now, the last one is a bit ambiguous though or should I say unknown at this point.
But I guess the last two points are rather unknown and more a topic of discussion for another time.
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So...how are we going to be updating th NT22 content on the profile(s)? Is there a CRT that needs to be made, or something? Since the convo seems to have died out.
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Someone needs to write a CRT with all the quotes necessary to proof all the stuff.
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Has anything been decided in regards to Accel's reflection? Is the limit going to be removed or kept on for now?
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I think it's going to be scaled to universe level, which would be listed on the page, limit or not.Scrlk666777 said:
The justifications of the scaling should probably be put into the CRT as well, though.
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Is the upcoming CRT for NT22 only, or can we add in info from previous volumes?
Because on another thread I pointed out that High Priest was able to casually slap away Mikoto's Railgun, which is stated as being 3x the Speed of Sound. He currently is listed as having "Unknown Speed".
I also have an issue with Fiamma and the Phase of Heaven being regulated to Planet level, as Gabriel is listed as Solar System for having Astro In Hand. His LPSaD state should logically be higher than that, for it wouldn't make any sense for a single Archangel to be stronger than the One Above God.
Because on another thread I pointed out that High Priest was able to casually slap away Mikoto's Railgun, which is stated as being 3x the Speed of Sound. He currently is listed as having "Unknown Speed".
I also have an issue with Fiamma and the Phase of Heaven being regulated to Planet level, as Gabriel is listed as Solar System for having Astro In Hand. His LPSaD state should logically be higher than that, for it wouldn't make any sense for a single Archangel to be stronger than the One Above God.
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High Priests speed would be updated due to the nerfed magic gods scaling from Coronzon and Base Accel, so no need for that.
I don't necesarily agree with the Fiamma thing, but we hould keep the NT 22 CRT on topic by debating that volume. I remind of the NT 21 CRT that got so sidetracked, that it basically still isn't completly finished.
I don't necesarily agree with the Fiamma thing, but we hould keep the NT 22 CRT on topic by debating that volume. I remind of the NT 21 CRT that got so sidetracked, that it basically still isn't completly finished.
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my friend tell me that when accel fought neph, when neph use water absorbtion from surrounding to create some water attack, accel's reflection protect him so water absorbtion didnt affect him, is it really happen?
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I share DontTalk's and Promestein's opinion. It is utter nonsense to assume that Accelerator can reflect any attack regardless of potency because of his hax.
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Its kinda hard, because it has foundation in mathmatics that calculating vectors really does not account for power or magnitude at all. Once you hit higher dimensional obviously he isn't gonna be able to calculate that, and he cannot do things that are too fast, but its still hard
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Sure but though it makes some sense mathematically, acting like it can reflect up to 3-A attacks while there are no feats to back that up is... Really problematic for an obvious reason. It's giving an extreme amount of special treatement for To Aru when we really don't do the same for any other verse.
NLF powers like "Invulnerability" and the like are almost never treated as such.
NLF powers like "Invulnerability" and the like are almost never treated as such.
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Sometimes hax just doesn't care about 3D potency. Creating a portal in front of you to send an attacker to another universe won't fail on a dude with 3-A fists.
I'd still like to see if there's any clear scans of "Accelerator does not care about magnitude", but the ways that it's failed in-story, and the fact that it's worked on a universal attack, seem to imply that it doesn't stop working as magnitude increases.
@Matt "acting like it can reflect up to 3-A attacks while there are no feats to back that up" From this thread there has been a 3-A attack that it's reflected.
I'd still like to see if there's any clear scans of "Accelerator does not care about magnitude", but the ways that it's failed in-story, and the fact that it's worked on a universal attack, seem to imply that it doesn't stop working as magnitude increases.
@Matt "acting like it can reflect up to 3-A attacks while there are no feats to back that up" From this thread there has been a 3-A attack that it's reflected.
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I'm sorry, what? Promstein stated that he was "torn" on the subject, thus she could not choose a side, so please stop inserting things into other people's mouths.Matthew Schroeder said:
Regardless, DontTalk has argued in favor of setting his Reflection limit as Universal, which would make magnitude irrelevant regardless of hax or not, as once you hit such a high tier the upper limit for it goes off into infinity anyways. So it serves no purpose to make such a distinction anymore.
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Promestein is a she.
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Well, that's because we know the medium for it. The reason why offensive hax don't get called NLF as often is because we know the medium by which they are effective over raw stats. Vector Manip here has done the same thing but with defensive hax, his ability simply but problematically does not account for the strength of the attack.Matthew Schroeder said:
Well, that depends on the medium of invulnerability. Things like Non-existent physiology does not need to be called NLF on because we know the metric by which they are not effected by attacks. He already has a limit of 3-A seemingly anyway
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If there is a legitimately 3-A potency attack he reflected that's fine as his limit.
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No, obviously not, just Universal of the potency which it got hit with.
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