Accelerator Revisions and minor Kakine revision

[TIHYDDWBE]

I would leave scaling Accelerator alone for now. focus on getting this done first. I will say though I'm of the opinion no one should scale to Accelerator. Not even Rensa, since we don't know how much calculation ability she has at her disposal. There's reasons why Accelerator gets pushed back in a fight and it's never due to AP.

@scrlk there were multiple times in that fight where Gunha overpowered Misaka, and not just the first shift form. He did overpower her iron sand shield, him pinning her down in her final form so Touma could land a hit, and of course him casually punching her lightning into the ground earlier on.

 

[Scrlk666777]

Malox

No, because one it's a one-shot and two it takes place Pre-OT 15 from the looks of it so it's extremely unlikely we're going to get a better scale for Kakine's AP in the spin off.

Also, no because he has not shown City level AP. It was scaled to Accel but it shouldn't have been scaled.

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

as for Kakine I'm of the opinion he should be At least 7-C. There is no way he is weaker than one of Misakas tsundere episodes.

 

[Malox1696]

well simply by feat large building lvl, but he did beat mugino so should he scale to her at least ?

 

[Scrlk666777]

Feat wise I would say at least 8-A since he and Accel did cause damage to the street but I'm not sure if that would count.

 

[Schnee_One]

I honestly read nothing in the fight that would warrant 8A, the best feat is them leveling a city block worth of the street

We could maybe calc something from the anime if literally no other options.

 

[Accelerate420]

Mugino is just a fleshy human. Durability wise he can scale and beyond, but AP wise I'd put him at least city block but I'm open to discussing that. I take it the Accel revisions are Accepted at this point?

 

[Scrlk666777]

I think so yes. I think so far only Don'ttalk has disagreed with a couple of things but I'm not sure his view on the others.

But most seem to agree with the revisions and hopefully this time we can get his page unlocked and added.

I would probably put Kakine at least City block too personally.. Maybe At least City block, likely higher.

 

[Malox1696]

don't forget to put the striking strengths scaling thank to reflection having the limit to 1c

post revival might be 7b tho, didn't he engulf the ship graveyard in dm ?

 

[Schnee_One]

Is there anything Kakine has done we can calc?

IIRC we have the building explosion he made.

 

[XDragnoir]

Btw, the Vector Shield should not be H1C pre-headshot, so what tier it will be? 3A? H3A? 5B?

 

[Malox1696]

no it should, it's just not as effective vs magic

 

[Accelerate420]

Probably just the building explosion. Kakine has never really been about pure AP and more making material from his dark matter to mess with things. I'd a power of creativity and not to destroy after all so it's not a surprise he is more hax reliant than AP.

 

[Scrlk666777]

Malox

What do you mean on the striking strength?

 

[Schnee_One]

More versatility then Hax tbh, he really doesn't have much in the way of it.

Either way there's also the issue of Accel taking a direct hit and still surviving, unless we call that an outlier.

 

[Accelerate420]

It should be 1-C of course. Only difference is it gets handicapped by Magic. We went through this already but his redirection has never once had a capacity limit.

 

[Malox1696]

5th time i explain this, reflection is just a formula that does x = -x, fact is if accel punches something with more durability than his normal strenght the force that the object would oppose to resist the changes would be reflected moving the object back or if it can't (changes happen to fast, it's grounded like a wall) it breaks in the area and get's damaged, pretty much making him scale to the durability of whatever it's touched or more specifically inside the reflection area, with striking strength

obv this would work only for melee and other are where his reflection field is active

 

[Accelerate420]

More versatility then Hax tbh, he really doesn't have much in the way of it.

Either way there's also the issue of Accel taking a direct hit and still surviving, unless we call that an outlier.

He was infusing his wings with 25k different energies so it wouldnt surprise me if the properties of it at that point differed. Aside from that I'd consider it an outlier.

 

[Accelerate420]

He was infusing his wings with 25k different energies so it wouldnt surprise me if the properties of it at that point differed. Aside from that I'd consider it an outlier.

 

[Accelerate420]

Mobil3 is amazingly glitchy right now.

 

[Scrlk666777]

Schnee

tbh Accel has always been a strange one in this regard. I mean he should have died when Gabriel used sweep as he was only able to slightly reflect it and the fact that Mina's punches caused on harm to him despite the fact it was said she could cause earthquakes with her punches.

At least with Gabriel he did get massively injured unlike with Kakine and Mina.

 

[Accelerate420]

My theory is he can buffer and reduce the damage forces that break through can do to them. So if it somehow gets through he can disperse the kinetic force elsewhere so it doesn't hurt as much. Consider it a second defende behind his shield defense. Of course that's mostly just a theory.

 

[Accelerate420]

Also Malox's theory makes sense to a point but I believe that undertaking should be done for another post. We dont wanna undertake too much here.

 

[Malox1696]

He was infusing his wings with 25k different energies so it wouldnt surprise me if the properties of it at that point differed. Aside from that I'd consider it an outlier.

accel survived cause they were mostly complete but the strength he could use would still be diminished cause he was using other type of energy not the one for direct power

 

[Scrlk666777]

Malox

I think I get what you mean, but just to be sure. Basically his striking strength should match to the other person's durability. So let's take someone with 3-A durability, Accel's striking strength should match that?

 

[Malox1696]

Also Malox's theory makes sense to a point but I believe that undertaking should be done for another post. We dont wanna undertake too much here.

it even explain how he was able to damage the experimental facility for the first sister experiment when he was still only using the reflection part only

 

[Malox1696]

Malox
I think I get what you mean, but just to be sure. Basically his striking strength should match to the other person's durability. So let's take someone with 3-A durability, Accel's striking strength should match that?

Yes, but only for melee up to 1c,

 

[Accelerate420]

When I think about it it makes sense too with how his hand literally sunk inside the building as well in OT13. I recall it even being stated to 'sink' in too in the LN. If everyone agrees with it I suppose we can debate it here.

 

[Scrlk666777]

I don't mind debating it. Tbh it would be good to get all of Accel's upgrades out of the way in this post. So we can debate this and anything else that I might have missed, if anyone wants,

 

[Scrlk666777]

If I remember correctly, in OT 13, it was described as his hand sinking into the wall like it was tofu.

 

[DontTalkDT]

1:That's not how Accelerator's ability works,...

1. Accel clearly doesn't just use external vectors, though. He also amplifies them with his ability. In other words he definitely has an own strength associated with his AP, whether we accept the redirection is working regardless of it or not.

And no, espers can obviously grow stronger within their own level not just the instant they switch level.

And the burden of proof that he didn't grow stronger is on you. It doesn't matter if it's rare, it doesn't matter if it doesn't feel like it to you, get a statement that he didn't grow stronger or the assumption is that he could have.

And calculation ability is also not proportional to esper power. It has something to do with the espers powers activation speed and whether you can use it in the first place, but does not determine the entire power

2. So I guess Kinuhata gets it as well, cause she amplifies her strength using her ability?

Stat amp means you have an ability that increases the power of your other abilities. Accelerator doesn't have that. He has an ability and he can use that ability to get an output. That isn't stat amping. Otherwise nearly every character could stat amp cause it can increase the output of literally anything using its own supernatural powers.

3. Can you be a bit more unspecific?

4. Where in the manga did he expell poison gas after it getting into him? I'm fine with bilogical manipulation in the sense that he can move things in bodies.

5. When during NT20 was he unaffected? Again, a bit more specific please.

And yeah, I'm gonna pull the "show proof" on everything unless you show proof. I don't do assumptions.

The target where mainly those that had a beheading coin. That's what they were for, to transmit Qliphah's power. The rest was at most in a war mood and I'm not even sure if that's due to supernatural means. In any case nothing you could proof accel to be unaffected by, unless it was stated.

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

at this rate the discussion is getting too diluted with other topics and nothing will end up happening as a result.

 

[Scrlk666777]

TIHYDDWBE

For the most part things have stayed on topic.

 

[Accelerate420]

Burden of proof isn't on me since you're claiming he's stronger. He's never shown major strength feats outside of OT13. Literally everything has already been spelled out for you.

 

[Malox1696]

1 no calculation power is related to the epser power, that what the whole lvl upper thing was about, u can get stronger by finding new way to use ur power or the "coffins" method, but it has nothing to do with reflection tho as it's all based on calculation and formula and it's just x=-x, while vector control actually requires him to calculate the vector before and after the change

2 i think he meant the thing u said at point 1, he can amplify the magnitude

3 look at my post i explained Analytic prediction comes from his ability and requirement to "see" the world in vectors, it was stated he calculates every vector he is aware of even the one he can't see (like radiation, etc) , it was even mentioned in the latest novel

same for information analysis

4 in last 2 chapters and again he shows other feats like he can control his blood flow automatically and his brain even has routine when he is unconscious as showed in his manga

5 he was unaffected when he was with aliester and as i explained he was able to look at 545 that is described as poisonous of the world and would destroy the mind of those who have not delved deeper in the study of magic by simply looking at her clothes, was unaffected by 545 aura of madness and is immune to people clearing field

 

[Scrlk666777]

4. It was in chapter 54 of the Accelerator Manga.

Btw, apart from the things you stated, is there anything else you disagree with?

 

[Accelerate420]

Also beheading coin isn't needed for her madness since it affected the Golden Dawn in NT21.

 

[Zensum]

1. Snip

Yes Accelerator can alter vector magnitude to a degree, but what does this have to do with direction change/reflection, the power we are discussing? Espers can grow stronger through outside means and growth yes, but Accelerator an ability that relies heavily on calculation strength, more so than probably any other Esper ability bar Teleportation, clearly isn't as powerful as what it was before his head trauma. There is no indication that the "growth" Post-Headshot Accelerator had was strong enough to bridge the gap of losing more than 50% processing power compared to his Pre Headshot self. In fact the story makes it clear it's all the extra stuff he gains that bridges this gap (knowledge, wings, 545 ..etc). That would put the burden of proof on you. "And calculation ability is also not proportional to esper power." It obviously is, that's why the strongest Espers tend to have the highest calculation power and higher level. For example Awaki's Move Point being superior to Kuroku's Teleport and needing more intense calculations allowing it to increase factors like object size, distance and accuracy ...etc.

 

[Accelerate420]

With that being said, is everything now clear for the revisions at least or is there some process we need to go through aside from waiting?

 

[Scrlk666777]

I think it's just the case of waiting. I think most agree with everything but I'm not sure if a mod has to agree with the changes or if the majority do, Either way, I think there;s only a couple of things that isn't agreed with, so hopefully at least, if they agree, we can get the other things added to his profile, like gravity Maniplation etc.