About the tiering of Alien X and those who scale to him.

[EnderShadowr215]

I have talked to Antivasma about the unreasonable upgrade between Low 2-C to 2-A. I have come to agree with him on it being 2-B. https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/643137#13

However due to problems with multiple statements from a writer make this is unavoidable it will clashed against each other. Cross-scaling to other series can get petty difficult. As how the original user of the OP regarding the upgrade has lied to us with changing info on a page from another wiki, we may have a unique situation when we should revise things with careful consideration as well.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

I have proven by Paradox saying there has been a hundred of timelines. This is literally something as you are irritated me right now, you troll.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Well I'll say one thing. Paradox does indeed say "Ad Infinitum" he just gave the wrong time. You have to watch for a bit. But that's the only real statement I believe.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Dragon Even this will screw up The cosmology of the Ben 10 series at large. It can be retconned and reboot as I mentioned. http://ben10.wikia.com/wiki/Ben_10_Planet:Retcons

How we supposed to know if it will be a true 2-A? It is hard to said anymore thanks to the sockpuppets Also are you really sure on that. I have a fair point as the user of the Alien X upgrade post failed to mentioned that it has been a play on worlds. String theory is not a good thing to use in fiction if it will cause so much a problem with everyone.

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Star

That's really bad logic. Anything can be retconned in any series just as long as the author wants it to be.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Yes I watched the video he link and you have to wait for the conversation to play out a bit. He says so after adult Ben says "Etcetera".

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Ever Again Paradox mentioned "String Theory", then in another episode he mentioned "hundreds of them". The original user who make the upgrade failed to mention on how this will not stand as it is. Trying to use a string theory that can not consistently go well with the Ben 10 series in general. Sorry as I have hard time to believe it will warrant a straight 2-A based on what a user has claimed.

 

[The_Everlasting]

There's such a thing as inconsistency between episodes. Xiaolin Chronicles, in the same sentence, described the multiverse as finite and infinite.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Ever Indeed, but as of now without legit proof of 5-D, it will make things ever harder to said. Here is what the Tiering System has to said on this:

Tier 2: Multi-Universal 2-C: Multi-Universe level This category is separated in the following manner:

Universe level+: ("Low 2-C") This is for characters who can destroy and/or create the entire 4-dimensional space-time of one universe, not just the physical matter within one. For example, an entire timeline. Multi-Universe level: Characters who can destroy and/or create up to 1000 universal space-time continuums.

2-B: Multiverse level Characters who can create and/or destroy 1001 to any higher finite number of universal 4-dimensional space-time continuums.

2-A: Multiverse level+ This category is separated in the following manner:

Multiverse level+: Characters who can destroy and/or create a countably infinite number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums.

High Multiverse level+: Characters who are 5-dimensional, and/or can destroy and/or create 5-dimensional space-time constructs of a not insignificant size.


We have mentioned of alternative timelines and parallel timelines. However they can not be combined together as a single multiverse without knowing if universes are connected to each other or not.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

There's such a thing as inconsistency between episodes. Xiaolin Chronicles, in the same sentence, described the multiverse as finite and infinite.

To be fair this inconsistency happened the same way here. However, that's all I will add. I'll just observe for now.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

If two wrongs has make this a problem, then I will proposes a rating for all parties here. We can downgrade him as 2-C or 2-B as of now it seems as though the user doesn't know that String theory has been debated before. In fact here is how string theory is being debated: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory#Criticism

 

[Burstchaos]

Paradox stated there are hundreds of them and 'ad infinitum' is the same episode and inside 30 seconds of each other. However, I don't think the hundreds of them statement should discredit the infinity statement since the infinity is a direct statement whilst hundreds is a commonly used phrase. Add in the 2 other theories already mentioned and I think there is more evidence of infinite rather than hundreds.

 

[Ryukama]

With all due respect I have found very little actually compelling to actually discredit the proposed upgrades.

• Paradox clearly, blatantly and explicitly said "ad infinitum" in the link Eroji provided.
• Assuming that a series entire cosmology has been completely retconned just because the show had retcons in the past is very faulty reasoning.
• The semantics of the words multiverse and omniverse being switched around during a single WoG question discrediting such a statement is also faulty. And if Marvel's inconsistency of those two terms doesn't stop us from rating characters 2-A, this shouldn't either.
• Two scientific concepts Paradox uses to describe the cosmology both have prevalent beliefs in infinite timelines.

The only thing I see going against the Ben 10 verse having infinite timelines, is the seemingly contradictory "hundreds" statement made before "ad infinitum." Which I feel could be interpreted as the branching of hundreds of timelines happening ad infinitum. But regardless that can be for the rest of staff to decide.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Never mind as that was a bit of proof of that happening. Anyway I closing this as well.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I'd like to post my original points here in a little bit. Since the OP from before is banned now and I asssume no one else has issues with referencing the wiki, I'd like to regive my thoughts on this and see what others think.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Ryu Like I said, Paradox in this episode: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2i7mh2


Yet I admittedly panaroid as I gonna list some quotes from Professor Paradox: " Ben 10: Alien Force: Paradox (#1.10)" (2008) Professor Paradox: The Chrono-logger is hardly a time machine in the sense of a vehicle, but rather a subatomic drill designed to bore a tunnel in the fabric of space-time. As to cost, I think the alleviation of untold human suffering throughout history is ample justification, General. General Groff: It'll also give our red buddies overseas a thing or two to think about.

Hugo: Doctor, I'm... I'm frightened! Professor Paradox: Have a gumball. It'll calm your nerves.

Professor Paradox: Swampfire! That takes me back - or is it forward? It's so hard to tell, Ben. Have we met?

Professor Paradox: Easy on the jacket. It's 1200 years old.

Professor Paradox: [checking his watch] Where have you been? You were supposed to get here six seconds ago - or is this thing running fast?

Professor Paradox: Don't talk to me about "old." I walk in eternity.

Professor Paradox: Same old Ben Tennyson. You're more like yourself now than you were in the future, which for obvious reasons I can't really tell you about. Kevin Levin: [to Ben] You want me to hurt 'im?

Professor Paradox: Los Soledad was built entirely on MY ingenious theory - a time tunnel utilizing the properties I discovered in quartz crystals which would allow us access to past and future events. Kevin Levin: Yeah, well, for a genius, it looks like you blew it. Professor Paradox: You don't know the half of it. Some tiny miscalculation on my part destabilized the experiment and ripped a hole in the fabric of reality. I was hurled into the event horizon. I must have spent one hundred-thousand years there. I didn't age or need to sleep or eat - just exist. Kevin Levin: Heh, sounds pretty boring. Professor Paradox: At first I went mad of course, but after a few millennia I got bored with that, too, and went sane - very sane. I began to learn. I now have total understanding of the space-time continuum, allowing me to travel anywhere and anywhen I want... within reason.

Professor Paradox: I've spent a dozen lifetimes crisscrossing the time stream, making it a better place. Kevin Levin: Then how does THAT pay? Professor Paradox: At the moment, not even in job satisfaction.

Professor Paradox: Young Ben has an innate sense of transtemporal metaphysics, which will serve him well in his future - or should I say past? Ben Tennyson: And I drive good, too.

Professor Paradox: Gumballs last a really long time. Look under your desk at school!

Professor Paradox: You're much smarter than you were when I met you later.

"Ben 10: Ultimate Alien: Ben 10,000 Returns (#2.10)" (2011) Paradox: Hello Ben. Ben 10,000: Good to see you, Paradox. Love how you don't show up until it's all over. Paradox: It's far from over, old friend. It's barely begun.

Gwen Tennyson: Professor Paradox? Paradox: Hello children. Kevin Levin: Who's your friend? Ben Tennyson: [Ben stares for a moment] Are you-? Ben 10,000: That's right, Ben. I'm you - only even more awesome.

Ben 10,000: I'm a different Ben 10,000. But I do remembering going to that future back when we were 10. What buzzkill that guy was. Ben Tennyson: You're my *real* future? Paradox: Yes. If nothing occurs to change it. That's why I've - bent the rules of time and brought you here.

Paradox: You travelled into Cross Time. Gwen Tennyson: Like a parallel world? Paradox: Exactly. Ben Tennyson: That's why the me in the future didn't remember it happening to him. Ben 10,000, Kevin Levin: But you remember all of this. Ben 10,000: Yeah, I do. Kevin Levin: Okay, don't do that again.

Paradox: There are rules, Kevin. I cannot interfer. Gwen Tennyson: Excuse me. But aren't you already interfering? Paradox: Touche... Actuall I've just come to give young Ben a warning. But that can wait. Ben Tennyson: Until what? Paradox: Until I see if you survive.

Paradox: I won't allow that Eon! Eon: You cannot interfere, timewalker. And you why. Paradox: True. But if you dare procede there is nowhere in all of space and time you can hide from me. Eon: I'll burn that bridge when I come to it. Now I have a couple of Ben Tennysons to absorb.

Paradox: Time to go. But first a warning to my young friend. [In an ominous voice] Paradox: Beware old George. Beware the creature from beyond. [Cheerfully] Paradox: So long.

"Ben 10: Alien Force: Time Heals (#3.15)" (2010) Paradox: There's an old saying in my field: "Time travel is for immortals and fools" - and I speak from experience.

Gwen Tennyson: But I haven't been able to cure Kevin with my magic. It's the only way. Paradox: There's ALWAYS another way. In fact, sometimes to do something, all you need to do is nothing. Gwen Tennyson: You're not making any sense. Paradox: I'm often accused of that, but I'm the time walker, and I'm generally quite well informed on these matters.

Gwen Tennyson: I have to do this. Paradox: I suppose you do; but, mark my words, Gwen Tennyson, you are about to unleash forces that you can neither comprehend nor control. Toodle-oo.

Paradox: I warned you that time travel is for immortals or fools. I'm the only immortal hereabouts. You do the math.

Gwen Tennyson: I'll save you, Kevin. I promise. Paradox: Well, that's the sort of thing that got you into trouble in the first place. Gwen Tennyson: And Ben? Paradox: He fought bravely, but eventually they caught him, too. Pity. After you died, he was the planet's last hope. Gwen Tennyson: No. Dead? ME? Paradox: Yes. Dead. You! Why are we talking this way?

"Ben 10: Ultimate Alien: The Forge of Creation (#1.16)" (2010) Serena: Time walker! You are not welcome here! Bellicus: Agreed. Resolved - punish Paradox for ignoring the treaty between him and the Celestial Sapiens race. Serena: Seconded! Paradox: [to Ben] I'm not supposed to go within 500 light-years of them.

Azmuth: Granted, he achieved far more than I believed possible, but trusting that boy with the Omnitrix was a GRAVE mistake. Paradox: Not a mistake. You know the reasons why. Azmuth: Yes. You told me of his grand destiny, that he was the legendary being who will someday... Paradox: Shhh. No spoilers. For that glorius future to occur, we must first survive the current crisis.

Kevin Levin: Wait. I thought the universe was everything. Paradox: A common error of the parochial mind. There's always more to reality than one imagines.

Paradox: [to Young Ben] You'll think it was a dream, but one day, you will remember it dimly and trust Kevin when you shouldn't, and he'll respond to that trust and help save the universe. Ben Tennyson: And then turn evil again. Paradox: The story isn't over, Ben. When the moment comes, you'll do what needs to be done. THAT is your great gift.

Paradox: If we're going to get there in time, we'll have to have already left. Off we go.

"Ben 10: Alien Force: War of the Worlds: Pt. 1 (#2.12)" (2009) Paradox: Azmuth, come with me. Azmuth: There's no point, time walker. The HighBreed Armada caught us totally by surprise. Galvin's planetary defenses are down. We don't have a chance! Without the Galvin, no other race in the galaxy has a chance, either. Paradox: But - and I hesitate to say this to the smartest being in the universe - that's where you're wrong. Azmuth: Explain. Paradox: We do have a chance - the chance you made for us. Azmuth: That is not what the Omnitrix is for!

Ben Tennyson: The three of us could barely take down one of their ships. Paradox: The ship you defeated wasn't a warship. It was a small cruiser. Ben Tennyson: That's encouraging.

Kevin Levin: Not a scratch. What's it made of? Paradox: Neturonium carbon alloy. Kevin Levin: Dude, that was totally... What's the word? Gwen Tennyson: Rhetorical. Kevin Levin: Yeah. That.

"Ben 10: Ultimate Alien: Ultimate Aggregor (#1.10)" (2010) Colonel Rozum: That facility is under a read seal. If my men can't retake that base, my orders are to destroy it. Paradox: [entering] That would be a major error, or is that a colonel error? I'm not very good with rank.

Paradox: In any case, I have other business demanding my attention, even more crucial. A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away... Kevin Levin: You cribbed that from those movies. Paradox: I'm a time traveller. How do you know I won't eventually say it first?

 

[Ryukama]

And what do these massive spam of Paradox quotes do to discredit the infinite timeline statement?

Also you keep going on and off saying you're going to quit this debate, removing threads/comments then going back to making points very soon. Is this actually your final response?

Lastly my problem isn't that you were paranoid, rather close to all your arguments were extremely flawed, presumptuous and in some cases objectively false. I of course mean no disrespect or insult when I say that, and have no hard feelings due to this discussion.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Ryu Here is this quote: "Ben 10: Alien Force: Time Heals (#3.15)" (2010) Paradox: There's an old saying in my field: "Time travel is for immortals and fools" - and I speak from experience.

He is able to understand the space time continuums

Gwen Tennyson: But I haven't been able to cure Kevin with my magic. It's the only way. Paradox: There's ALWAYS another way. In fact, sometimes to do something, all you need to do is nothing. Gwen Tennyson: You're not making any sense. Paradox: I'm often accused of that, but I'm the time walker, and I'm generally quite well informed on these matters.

"Professor Paradox: The Chrono-logger is hardly a time machine in the sense of a vehicle, but rather a subatomic drill designed to bore a tunnel in the fabric of space-time. As to cost, I think the alleviation of untold human suffering throughout history is ample justification, General." General Groff: It'll also give our red buddies overseas a thing or two to think about.

Serena: Time walker! You are not welcome here! Bellicus: Agreed. Resolved - punish Paradox for ignoring the treaty between him and the Celestial Sapiens race. Serena: Seconded! "Paradox: [to Ben] I'm not supposed to go within 500 light-years of them."

He nust do things with in reasons.

"Professor Paradox: At first I went mad of course, but after a few millennia I got bored with that, too, and went sane - very sane. I began to learn. I now have total understanding of the space-time continuum, allowing me to travel anywhere and anywhen I want... within reason."

 

[Ryukama]

Unless you can clearly explain how these unrelated quotes have relevance towards the upgrades and how they disprove infinite timelines within Ben 10, please stop. At this point you're wasting staff time's with unreasonable, unjustified objections when we could be having more productive discussions.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Ryukama.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay, back.

Now if no one else has issues with me referencing the Ben 10 wiki as points for this discussion, I'll retell some of my old points (as well as new ones I just thought of that may change things).

Is anyone fine with this?

 

[Ryukama]

@Professor Sure.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Well Professor Paradox said in Alien 10, Alien Force: "Professor Paradox: At first I went mad of course, but after a few millennia I got bored with that, too, and went sane - very sane. I began to learn. I now have total understanding of the space-time continuum, allowing me to travel anywhere and anywhen I want... within reason."

This mean he was able to explain things that is related to upper finite 4D timelines. He clearly said space-time as 4 dimensional kind of thing

In two different episodes from different Ben 10 series, we hear Paradox saying "hundred of them" and then he said "ad infintium" in a different part of the Ben 10 series This is because I thought at first it was fine, but lot of the the Ben 10 lore is confusing. I also heard Paradox talking about the String theory. Due to being over hundred of episodes in the Ben 10 series has made this hard to find and pinpoint. Unfortunately I will need to gather all evidence after a week has passed. 4D is being explicitly been mention for the most part.

Professor Paradox: Los Soledad was built entirely on MY ingenious theory - a time tunnel utilizing the properties I discovered in quartz crystals which would allow us access to past and future events.

Professor Paradox: You don't know the half of it. Some tiny miscalculation on my part destabilized the experiment and ripped a hole in the fabric of reality. I was hurled into the event horizon. I must have spent one hundred-thousand years there. I didn't age or need to sleep or eat - just exist.


However if you want to demiss me for this, I will humbly requested one of you guys to ban me as I feel extremely guilty as it is now.

 

[Ryukama]

What does him saying space-time is 4-D have anything to do with it?

And the "hundreds of timelines" and "ad infinitum" happen in the same episode and same lines of dialouge. Not two different episodes.

The other quotes have absolutely nothing to do with any of this.

I do not believe you deserve a ban in the slightest. But your arguments have been very unreasonable and faulty in my personal opinion. And I'd appreciate that they get dropped and we let other people give their input on whether or not this upgrade is valid.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Okay, but I think we should be careful about speculating it being from the same episodes as these quotes came from different episodes throughout the Ben 10 series. Still I think I deserve a ban for it.

 

[Ryukama]

You're the one who has been speculating we should assume the entire cosmology was retconned just because retcons have happened before. You're the one who speculated just because WoG didn't give a serious answer to an entirely unrelated question the cosmology is invalid. You're the one who speculated since WoG didn't know/didn't care about an entirely unrelated subject, the cosmology is invalid. You're the one who speculated since the proposed upgrade is boosting Ben 3 tiers it shouldn't be considered.

You have been speculating far more than others and the speculations have been far less reasonable.

At the same time there is no reason you deserve a ban for that. You have been very polite throughout this and there are many users here that really like you. And from my personaly experience I have enjoyed talking to you. You don't deserve a ban at all.

Also if other members have reasonable objections towards these upgrades, I'll be more than happy to concede.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Well I suppose do as assuming that I speculated on everything doesn't make me feel any better. I am really sorry for wasting everyone's time here. I just feel conflicted at this point.

 

[Ryukama]

You shouldn't feel bad about yourself. Even though I heavily disagree with your points, there is absolutely nothing wrong with you making them.

This isn't a site for the most part that holds grudges or has personal conflicts due to differing opinions.

You should just drop this subject and move on if it is stressing you. No need to get banned or to leave the site. This community will still happily welcome you and there is no harm done about the discussion. Nobody has any hard feelings or is upset at you about this. It's all good

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Ryukama, both regarding this topic, and regarding that Starkiller does not deserve a ban at all.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Fair enough, I will wait for awhile and let the others has to said about it. My points kinda does cause a lot of disagreement, but I guess it will go to what both regular users and staff members have to said as it is.

Edit: Let's keep this thread for any objections toward the upgrade.

Edit: Never mind I will removed it permanently as I just feel either bad at causing problems here.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Kk. Thank you Stark for reopening this for me to have a chance to bring in input, even if its wrong.

Now as far as to whether or not the Ben 10 verse has infinite timelines or finite ones, I won't get into that. I'll let all of you decide that amongst each other since you seem to know more on that than I do.

But as far as upgrading Alien X's AP because of this, I don't think that is the case. From what the wiki says about the episode, Ben never overpowered or even destroyed the time bomb. His No Watch self used Clockwork , One of his aliens, to reverse the effects of the bomb before it could start destroying everything, which isnt considered AP . To help verify this more, I even watched the episode that was linked claimed to have the feat in it and I never see or hear anything about Clockwork creating infinite timelines or ben becoming stronger than the bomb. In addition to this, even if Clockwork were to do something along the line, we don't scale characters above each other in terms of Hax ability unless its specific cases like with Arceus and the Creation/Lake trio. So just because Clockwork could do it doesnt mean Alien X can for being stronger, especially when all we see him reset is a single universe (though casually). Also, if you take a look at the page I linked, it lists the reason why Clockwork was able to reverse it which was ignored before. The time bomb has a weakness that makes a ripple in time noticiable to Chronosapiens (the species Clockwork is a part of) and its with that weakness that allows Chronosapiens to reverse the bomb's effects using their time powers. So its likely not even Clockwork being able to reverse it himself, its just a limit of the bomb itself that makes it reverseable.

Another point (Ant IIRC said it made sense so i'll bring it up) is that scaling someone who is stronger than what a weapon can do is likely not a good idea. Examples: We didnt accept Naruto, Sasuke, Toneri and possibly a bunch of other characters being Moon Level when fodder ninja can put their chakra together into the Chakra Cannon, which was gonna be used to obliterate the entire moon to bits. I also recall a verse where a weapon, which is capable of destroying entire galaxies, being destroyed by a bunch of creatures who's power cap at around 5-B at best during the time. We also didnt accept DB characters in Xenoverse being tier 2 just because they can destroy the Time Vault, a contraption made to keep all timelines in check. So if this is the case, we likely shoudlnt accept Alien X being scaled higher just because of statements such as "being the strongest in the universe". Statements like those can be very vauge, so vauge that in most cases wouldnt even allow characters to reach 3-A becausue of it (not saying Alien X is only 3-A as thats downplay, only using this as an example).

Next point, when those statements "strongest in the universe" are used to justify this rating, I find it sort of strange how a 2-A or even 2-B's power is limited to such a lowly scope thats even suitable for a 3-A, which is infinitely lower than anything Tier 2. There's no other god tier 2 character given this treatment. Zeno is a Tier 2, the god tier in DB, and is constantly referred to as the absolute strongest in the entire multiverse. Same thing for Arceus. Why would Alien X be any different?

Final point (this one I conceded to before but now I have more to use for it so i'll bring it up again), If Alien X were to be upgraded, so would all celestialsapiens for having the same abiltiies. Even baby ones. But yet, their power is able to be absorbed by infinitely weaker beings. So it would make this a huge Inconsistency and possibly an NLF. Now Everlasting brought up a point before on why my claim was false and because of that, I conceded to this point. But I did more digging and believe this to be an inconsistency. Arrgogor was someone who only had the powers of 5 randomly captured Aliens who arent anything near remotely tier 3 even and he was going to absorb the power of a baby Celstialsapien born in the Forge of Creation so could gain its powers. Normally, this would be fine as long as he was actually able to absorb the power. But the problems here are:

• Arrogonor never actually absorbed the Baby C's power. He was going to attempt it but Kevin got in the way and stopped him before he could. So the matter of whether or not he could is debatable at this point

• Kevin after he absorbed Kid Ben's omnitrix powers was able to absorb Ultimate Aggorors powers and revert him back to base (plus Kid ben was able to fight against Aggorgor as well). So if we accepted Aggoror being able to absorb Tier 2 power, we'd be accepting Kevin doing the same thing and Kevin is no where remotely close to tier 2 in the history of Ben 10.

• From what the Wikihere says, Arrogor is only able to absorb a limited amount of power from an opponent, 1/10th of the power. However this is him in his base form. When he becomes Ultimate Arrogor his energy absorbing power does strengthen, as he absorbed the 4 other aliens he captured at that point to become much stronger. But he needed a machine in order to boost his ability. So there is nothing to base his ability off of except him absorbing power from fodder people like the one in the picture on his page, and if anything, Ben Gwen and Kevin. So there's absolutely nothing logical about him being able to absorb the baby's power, making this inconsistent until someone can explain it.

Bear in mind that a Baby Celestialsapiens power is no different than that of Adult ones. The only thing that separates them as that a Baby needs to develop for a long time (thousands of years worth) for them to use their power at will, otherwise they are unable to. It's mentioned here . So that means even Baby Celestialsapiens would have the exact same level of power as that of adults.


And now for the Infinite Speed thing.

Now I can understand why Alien X and Celestialsapiens would get it since the Forge of Creation is their natural environment and it is claimed to have Erased Time. But after careful thinking, I have to disagree with this completely. Here are points on why:

-As said above, Baby Celestialsapines are no different then Adults other than one being able to use their powers (when personailites agree) and the other one not being mature enough to use their power and not having multiple personas. So whatever stats adult ones have, the baby's would have it too. So even the baby celestialsapiens would get Infinite Speed, yet until they mature, they are physically unable to even move about on their own. So it would be very strange for beings who first cant move at all to have such a speed rating.

-There was a point in which Stark and/or Cal brought up before that you could ask them about that went against this I believe.

-Alien X's only speed feat in the series (well for Celestialsapiens in general anyway) is being able to travel entire Solar Systems in less than a milosecond. While that is a very impressive speed feat, it should be childsplay for anyone with Infinite Speed. Because anyone with that rating would be able to travel whole galaxies and even universes instantly.

-The Forge of Creation can literally be reached by anyone who has the Map of Infinity (except for Paradox as he doesnt need it and Ben's group as they used a normal space ship to reach the FoC). So that would mean everyone and their mother in the verse would be able to have infinite speed for being able to move in an erased void, which sounds ubsurd.

- Ben, Kid Ben (he was brought back for this episode), Gwen, Kevin and Aggroror can all move around freely in the forge of creation and even fight each other without any problems at all. Unless we're gonna accept them and literally anyone they have fought in the series by that point onward getting infinite speed (which will cause a LOT of problems as even Kid Ben and his opponents would get upgraded), this will be a major inconsistency.

-Even inside the Forge of Creation, time still likely flows. This is implied when Kid Ben who was transformed still timed out and returned back to human. If there was no time in the Forge of Creation, then Ben would literally never time out. He'd be stuck as an alien forever without the timer ever timing out as long as he is in the Forge of Creation. The fact the timer on his Omnitrix still worked their proves or strongly implies time wasnt erased but still flowing.

-The timeframe for a Baby Celestialsapien is that the very least thousands and thousands of years before they can even be considered mature. But they stay in the Forge of Creation before turning into Adults and then going wherever they want. If time was erased there wouldnt be any required time frame for a baby to develop. It would just be sitting there developing for eternity witout ever maturing if there was no time.

That concludes it. What do you guys make of this?

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Kukui

Just reading the latter bit relating to the Infinite speed.

1. Why does that matter if baby Celestialsapiens would get the speed rating?

2. Irrelevant. Having this one feat doesn't invalidate all others. 4-B Kingdom Hearts isn't invalidated just because they only have two feats on that level.

3. We don't rate moving in a timeless void as Infinite speed anymore unless the person outright lives there.

4. See above.

5. Plot convenience. Fiction needs a linear flow of narrative to have things make sense and keep tension.

6. I don't have a truly proper counter for that, but again, fiction imposes linearity on things that logically shouldn't be linear.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Ever

Just to add on how the fact the user of the original upgrade thread has just falsified info by changing thing on a wiki. This is vandalism and manipulation of evidence at worst. Should we let this upgrade become truly valid if everything has been heavily been debated on this? i have decide to stop talking about this topic, but I liked add on there this upgrade will cause problems and confusion with people in the future including myself.

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Star

There's literally no reason to quote a message that big.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Since the upgrades was implemented earlier, it will complicated things. Apparently I have been inform by a regular user that talks about the Ben 10 wikia:

I don't know what is going on so I will once again removed this thread so I don't question things that far.

 

[Ryukama]

@Professor for the AP thing

1. I believe the reason Naruto isn't listed as Moon level for that is due to the fodder ninja thing being seen as inconsistent. And for Dragon Ball that's because they only destroyed the weapon itself. Not match the AP the weapon is capable of. If Alien X is actually explicitly depicted as having greater power levels than the 2-A bomb or being the most powerful entity, then I believe he should scale.

2. This argument is just getting picky with semantics. If Alien X is stated to be the strongest being in his universe, there's no reason why that should mean he can't be Multi-Universe level or above. He has the status of being the strongest inhabitant of his universe. That does not automatically that his powers are limited on a universal scale. Goku's title is being the strongest on earth, that doesn't mean he's only planetary in power.

3. Again you're misusing the term NLF. A character absorbing a 2-A's power is not a NLF if they have actually shown capable of doing it. A NLF by definition is assuming one can do things they haven't shown. Not acknowledging their shown feats, that's the opposite of a NLF.

I don't see how a weaker character who has a hax ability to absorb higher being's power proves said higher being doesn't have that tier. All it indicates is that the character has insane hax, not that the other character is now weaker. And even then if a higher being did get harmed by someone who logically should not be able to, that's listed as an inconsistency for the lower being, not the higher. Spectre didn't lose his 2-A rating cause he got hurt by Batman.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Idk about this as not everyone is familiar with Ben 10 series. We are going against each other throats. This is the reason I am responsible for questioning things too far. I just even don't know what is not true and what is false at this point. I want this to settled down before we do this. Too much drama caused by me and me alone.

 

[Ryukama]

@Star With all due respect, please calm down.

Nobody here is upset with each other. We're just having a civilized debate. Professor isn't mad at Ever, I'm not mad at Professor, no one is mad at you.

No drama is going on at the moment and none caused by you. We're just discussing the topic and hand. There are mods and admins that will take care of the situation if it gets bad. Please stop removing the thread and allow everyone to speak their minds until a consensus is reached.

Thank you.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Okay... It is just this I never experienced this much amount of debates such as this. I will try to see I refrain from doing so.

Edit: I just feel guilty for all kind of troubles I cause for you guys.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah no ones mad at each other at all. We're just calmly discussing this together in a civilized manner. Anyways lol:

1. The DB thing I can agree to but Idk about the Naruto one.

2. I know that but when they say he's the strongest in the universe, im mentioning how he's only refered to as that in a single universe and not the overal verse. Thats why I used Arceus and Zeno as examples. Plus to be fair Ryu we have to be careful on how we use the statements. I see your point but we also shouldnt upgrade characters to be the strongest in the universe just because they are stated as that. Like Frieza and Majin Buu. I guess it really depends.

3. I know that, but the issue with this is that this is assuming the character has actually absorbed that level of power. Aggrogor has never absorbed the power of the baby Celestialsapien. He's never absorbed power remotely close to that prior to entering the Forge of Creation. In base form he has only absorbed power from fodder and to become stronger and advance his absorbing capabilities, he neeed the help of a machine to become Ultimate Aggrogor. So his second form only has enhanced absorbing above his base, which hasnt absorbed any notable level of power. Plus even in his Ultimate Form Aggrogor can have his power then stolen by Ultimiate Kevin, who needed the powers of Kid Ben's Omnitrix (in other words his original 10 aliens) to absorb Aggorgor's power and revert him back to base form. This should imply a limit here. And even then, we never see Aggorgor have a real attempt at absorbing the Baby Celestialsapiens power since Kevin prevented his attempt so the matter on whether or not he can right there is speculative at best.

Maybe, but the higher character would to be in that tier to begin with to label it as a simple inconsistency. Spectra works because he's always been 2-A and getting hurt by Batman is just stuff like PIS. Aggorgor's tier was never even near Tier 3 for that part of the series since he can be rivaled by Ben (without Alien X, he used his normal aliens), Gwen, Kevin and even Kid Ben.

Also Ryu did you see my point on Clockwork however?