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About the tiering of Alien X and those who scale to him.

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Well to quote Eroji's post.

"20:44 Azmuth says the Omnitrix is the most powerful weapon in the universe.Meaning the omnitrix> Time bomb and the Chrono-Navigator. Azmuth knows of the power behind the Chrono Navigator. Alien X is the most powerful alien in the Omnitrix '''

- 00:30 Azmuth says the Celestialsapie "have the greatest power in the universe" - 5:03 , Paradox states it's the source of the universe's greatest power, further proving Celestialsapiens DC is above everything else. At 5:11 he calls a baby Celestialsapien omnipotent.

- Alien X also created the Chronosapien Time Bomb out of nothing, when it created the universe, so it should be able to use it however it wants."

This seems like sufficient enough indication that Alien X is more powerful than the Time Bomb honestly.
 
I came to this thread to see what was going on with the constant Alien X stuff. I was hit with the hardest wall of text ever lol. I will just watch how this one plays out.
 
Ryukama, with all due respect because you know I would never belittle or insult your arguments, there are issues with this evidence.

Firstly, remember Eroji was one who was willing to edit a lot of stuff from the Ben 10 Wiki I was using to counter his arguments so that shows he's greatly willing to make fake evidence. While some of this maybe true, we have no idea on what he could have either been faking or telling the truth about.

Secondly, I already gave reasons why the Omnitrix being the most powerful is likely either hyperbole or taken out of context. All the Omnitrix is really is just a transfomation device for Ben to turn into any Alien he has within it. Outside that, the Omnitrix is not considered a weapon in any way. Its like if a computer is more powerful than the other. When its stated to be the most powerful, it is likely saying its the most advanced weapon in the universe as there's no other weapon like it in Ben 10. If it were more powerful than the time bomb, Ben wouldnt have even needed any alien to destroy it, he'd only need the omnitrix. The only time it has an offensive function to it is when it was nearly about to self-destruct, stated to be able to destroy the universe. That can be anywhere from 3-A to Low 2-C which is no where near what the Time bomb and Chrono Navigator can do. and we have no way of knowing which as the movie doesnt give us anymore details than that. Furthermore, even if we ignore all this, just because the Omnitrix is the most powerful device (whether in terms of advancement or AP) doesnt mean Alien X can scale above it. I've proven that the Omnitrix's power and the power of the Aliens it gives ben are completely different.

Thridly, I would still like to know if that statement refers to a single universe or the whole verse as no one ever gave me an answer. Plus the evidence of using a Baby Celestialsapien being "omnipotent" when we already accepted its very vague and false probably should not be used as a justifcation.

Fourth, where is it stated that Alien X created the bomb out of nothing? And Alien X never created the universe he recreated it. That's basically saying he rewrote the time bomb if it existed in that universe, modifying it from what it was before. And if he really did create it, then one of the bens out of the infinite amounts of them (yes there were infinite bens as the time bomb was going to destroy all versions of Ben along with the timelines) would have used Alien X to erase the bomb completely.

Also something I would like to bring back one more time if thats alright. Earlier you said the Naruto Moon Level thing wasnt a good example to use here because of inconsistency IIRC. Well, in Alien X's case, wouldnt him being above the time bomb also be an inconsistency? Like with Naruto, the only feat we ever see of Alien X in the series is him casually recreating a universe which is around 2-C. While that is very impressive and means he can do more, would that justify him being at a level thats infinitely above his feat?
 
1. I'm not saying anything good about Eroji or saying he shouldn't still be banned. However him doing some scumbag things doesn't mean whatever he says is now untrue because it came from him.

2. Couldn't the Omnitrix be considered powerful due to allowing Ben to become these aliens, thus solidifying his standing as above the weapon?

3. If Alien X/the Celestialsapiens are stated to be the most powerful/greatest source of power capable in the same universe these weapons are from, that would obviously imply that Alien X is more powerful than those bombs.

4. It is explicitly said that Ben recreated the universe and everything in it to its smallest detail after it got destroyed. And that Ben himself was the only true remaining thing from the previous universe after its destruction. Which means he should have created the bomb itself then.

5. A bunch of fodder nobodies performing a feat vastly superior to the established limits of far more powerful characters is not the same thing as using an utterly casual feat to say someone can't scale to a much higher force. It's like saying Vados doesn't scale to any of the 3-As in Dragon Ball cause the only feat we ever see of her is busting a planet.
 
1. Fair enough. Sorry for bringing that up, It wasnt good on my part at all.

2. Well from what I was arguing above, I don't think so because the power of the aliens themselves doesnt seem to have any connection to the omnitrix itself. All that would classify it as is a transformation device. Outside of that ability, the Omnitrix has no offensive features to it at all that can be considered a weapon otherwise we would have seen one of the Bens try and use it to destroy the bombs. For example, the Omnitrix in the movie had a self-destructing feature capable of either 3-A or Low 2-C damage. Thats for the Omnitrix itself. Yet the aliens Ben had with him were immensely weaker than that, like around tier 8 or tier 7 at best. And not just them but every Alien Ben has ever used besides Alien X are around that tier, majority of them anyway. That shows that the powers of both are totally separate from each other, so if the aliens have nothing to do with the power of the Omnitrix itself, there's no reason why Alien X would scale above it. Plus if the Omnitrix isnt really an offensive weapon, how is it able to have more power?

3. Thats the thing. We have no evidence that the bomb or the Chrono Navigator came from the same universe given the vast amount of realities in Ben 10. Given how the bomb at least is called the "Chronosapie Time Bomb", this is very likely that it was created by a chronosapien themselves and Chronosapiens were said to have traveled across various dimensions and times because of the time war, so we have no clue on where they even come from.

4. Well this kinda goes along with Point 3 so I wont reply here.

5. Well in Vados's case she is an angel who is at least equal to Whis and can stomp Champa like Whis can stomp Beerus. In Alien X's case, thats the only thing he ever does in terms of AP period in the series. So one has feats but can scale off of similarly powerful characters to support their tier while in Alien X's case, there's only that one feat but no scaling off of different characters.
 
1. Well if the Omnitrix is considered the most powerful weapon not due to its offensive capabilities rather being able to turn Ben into Alien X, that would support Alien X having a massive amount of power.

2. If both bombs' origin come from a different universe than Alien X, I suppose the statement of Alien X being the greatest source of power and most powerful in the universe doesn't make the scaling valid then.

3. The point is using a lesser feat that was done with no effort doesn't mean a character can't scale to much stronger characters. Vados has only destroyed a planet in terms of AP period in the series. But she scales to universe busters.

If Alien X does not scale to things greater than his universe recreation feat, then of course we can only rate him from that.
 
1. Maybe, but remember the Omnitrix before only ever had 3-A or Low 2-C power on its own, something immensely lower than the bombs power and we never see anything like this again afterwards. Yet its still said to be the strongest weapon despite such an inferior feat. What could we make of this?

2. Yeah. I think I found something that may impy where they come from but its gonna be kind of confusing to explain. In the episode Ben 10,000 Returns, we see the future Ben as Ben 10,000 use clockwork. So that means in that future his future version obtained DNA from the Chronosapiens. But in the same episode, He and Paradox mention that Bens future self that appears in this episode comes from "Cross-Time". It means a bunch of parallel worlds that are parallel versions of the same history we know. And Future Ben 10000's world is one of these timelines. So this means or implies that Chornosapiens started showing up in the timeline of Future Ben 10000's world, one of the many versions of the original Ben's world. Now as to whether or not they come from the same universe or different universe in that time is still unknown, but this does imply that Chronosapiens exist in that time before starting to go rouge in the time war, otherwise Ben 10000 wouldnt have their DNA to become Clockwork. And after looking up Alien X's universe recreating feat, its only described as recreating the universe of that time and not effecting any futures of that universe. So if what im trying to say here is true, that means the Chronosapiens (which likely created the bomb) come from a different parallel future of Ben's world and were not effected at all when Alien X recreated the universe, meaning the bomb was more than likely not remade.

3. Fair there too.
 
1. Like I said perhaps Omnitrix is only considered the strongest or most powerful due to turning Ben into Alien X. It's the most dangerous as it can do that, not cause of an explosion the device itself does. Though that might be too speculative.

2. If neither bombs come from Alien X's universe, I am fine not scaling them.
 
1. Makes sense. But then heres a question. Would the same thing be said about it if Alien X was never there for Ben? I don't recall the Omnitrix being stated to be the strongest specifically because of Alien X. If anything, that claim would stand for all his aliens as well. But like you said, this is very debatable at best.

2. Yeah that is the likely result as Chronosapiens like Clockwork never show up in the series at all until Ben 10000's future pops up in the show, which is years upon years ahead of the Original ben's time. And since Alien X's feat didnt affect any timeline but just a single universe, the timelines were more than likely not effected. So there's no proof that Alien X created/recreated/rewrote the bombs when doing his feat. Unless someone can prove the bombs came from original Ben's universe, and was made around the time Alien X recreated the universe, we shouldnt scale Alien X above the bombs.
 
Like I said, it's a speculation to explain the seeming inconsistency.

If the bombs don't come from Alien X's universe, I am fine with him getting downgraded.

Of course I would like to hear input from others before implementing such a drastic change again though.
 
I have the impression that you are overthinking the issue. If the Omnitrix/Alien X is the strongest weapon that Azmuth knows about, then it should scale, especially given the confirmation by one of the show creators that Alien X can in fact destroy the multiverse.
 
@Ant Alright then. Thank you for the input.
 
Well Ant, even if that is the case wouldnt it still be possibly an inconsistency? We were discussing the Omnitrix having a feat of being only either 3-A or Low 2-C at best which is far lower than what the Bombs are able to acomplish, along with some other factors. Besides, the Chronosapien Time Bomb wasnt made during that time as the Chronosapiens werent a thing until Ben 10000's future world popped in the show, which happens way later than when this statement was made (Azumoth made this statement in Alien Force, Chronosapiens dont show up until the second season of Ultimate Alien). So the time bomb wouldnt be included as weaker than the Omnitrix in that claim.

And while the creators did confirm Alien X can destroy the multiverse, he needs 6 thoughts in order to do so. The time bomb is able to destroy all timelines in a single attack so if Alien X is stronger, he'd be able to do the same thing only easier. But if he needs 6 thoughts to destroy something when he should be able to one shot it may make things confusing.

But if you still think it should scale anyways then alright.
 
Well, destroying infinite timelines in 6 attacks still needs tier 2-A attack potency, as infinity divided by 6 is still an infinity.

I vaguely remember it being stated that the Omnitrix is the most powerful weapon, but it has been a long time since I watched the show.
 
True. I just remember it being brought up in the past and it was discarded for it being unquantifiable and because of Alien X's universe creation feat. I could be wrong.

Same, thats why im starting to check some of the episodes. Im not sure if Eroji just linked the wrong episode because that episode never states the Omnitrix is the most powerful. And even if it did, it probably does not matter. The time bomb did not exist at that time because the Chronosapiens werent considered a thing until we see them in Ben 10000's future since he can transform into Clockwork, which is many years ahead of the original ben's time period. And his future is one of many in the "Cross-time". So even if the omnitrix is stated to be the strongest weapon, the bombs wouldnt be classified under that as they werent built until later on.

The claim of Alien X also creating them from nothing is also false as his universe creating feat doesnt effect any timelines at all, just the space-time of a single unierse. So the bombs in the future of Ben 10000's world aren't effected at all. Adding that we also don't have proof the bombs were even made in the same universe as Bens, the location of the Chronosapien species isnt known.
 
The upgrade via the word of god statement was discarded because the individual who gave it rarely responds to questions in a serious manner, making an already weak source hardly noteworthy (in regards to the previous statement).
 
Alright so I wanted to asked 2 things about the Time Bombs destruction feat and I hope someone can explain this to me

1. So we all know Vilgax said the bomb will destroy all Bens and timelines except the one they where in. What I want to known is that even possible if their are infinite timelines wouldn't that mean the bomb turned infinite finite. To do that takes Reality Warping not standard Destruction Power?

2. So if the bomb destroyed all space-time continuums except for that one how is it that Paradox took Ben to go reset the Ben Prime timeline we their is no more timeline it was destroy when Ben prime got destroyed and Paradox can still time travel but how when there is no time to travel threw. Can a person even time travel to the past if that universes Time-Space was destroy is that possible. Wouldn't this contradict the bomb destroying those timelines?

Also I'd like to apologize if this was brought up by me or someone else already on the other thread about Upgrading Alien X I can't remember
 
Well, #1 is simply due to comicbook logic/plot convenience, but I do not remember the episode well enough to answer #2.
 
@ ProfessorKukui4Life

in the last epsiode of ben 10 omniverse, At 5:45, Rook mentions they are in the early 1770s, meaning The Chronosapien Timebomb existed since at least the year 1773 .

at 7:10 in the episode " A New Dawn", Maltruent gave the Chronosapien timebomb to Vilgax almost 300 years before Ben was bor. Keep in mind this is the main timeline Ben.

Ben created everything in history up until 20xx, with Alien X. At 12:30 and at 6:24 in the Omniverse episode "Tennyson vs Universe"


At 7:42, in the episode Ben 10000 Returns, it's explained that Ben 10000 and the main timeline Ben, is the same perso - Paradox states if anyone else but him uses the Chrono Navigator, it would destroy all of reality, at 9:00 and at 18:38.

Only he knows how to use it without that happening. Keep in mind he has already seen the destruction of the multiverse since

'Paradox confirms that all timelines except 1 were destroyed at 21:12, so yes he definetly knew. Keep in mind, Paradox said this, after he already had the Chrono Navigator. Furthermore, he won't let anyone use it in any episode for precisely this reason, and he still said Alien X > Everything else in the universe, despite having a tier 2-a multiversal weapon.

'- it is stated at 9:20 that Paradox can't lie At 4: 30 Paradox knows of the future, also at 8:20, so even if it's in a past episode he would still know in the future.
 
And keep in mind, he still knew what the Chrono Navigator could do ever sicne before his first episode, yet he still said Celestialsapiens > Everything in the universe, and keep in mind he knows of the future.


Even if it wasnt the main timeline that got the timebomb( it was), Paradox would still know of it, since he still knew of Maltruent, and regardless, he still has a weapon MORE powerful than the timebomb. The Vilgax who got the timebomb, is the main timeline Vilgax. it even says so on the wiki. Nothing on the wiki says Maltruent or the other Chronosapiens exist in other timelines, so assuming they do is baseless. We have only seen them in 1 timeilne, the main timeline ( except for the No watch ben, clockwork, but that doesn't count since he was using MAIN timeline Ben's omnitrix).


Watch the Omniverse Episode" End of an Era " or "A new Dawn" , it is never stated, shown or implied they go to other timelines or universes, they just go back and forward in time in the main timeline. Ben 10000 is the main timeline FUTURE ben, not from another timeline.

The wiki also doesn't meantion anything about any timeline or other universe , and no those pages has not been recently updated by anyone.
 
LordGriffin1000 http://*******************.eu/watch/ben-10-omniverse-s6-ep2-and-then-there-was-ben/

Ben and Paradox fixed the timestream, by rebooting it. They want back in time, and changed the timeline of their timeline. Basically, the no watch ben timeline, didnt find the Omnitrix, but Paradox and Ben went back in time to ensure that he did. By changing that timeline, the timestream got rebooted. Paradox could only time travel in 1 timeline, all others were erased said by himself. By changing the timeline, the No Watch Ben timeline, became the Prime Ben or the main timeline Ben's timeline.

He changed the timelines, so the timestream would get rebooted.


Keep in mind, it wouldn't make any sense for Paradox to take the no watch Ben into Vilgax ship and ensure the Omnitrix got found by Ben, if it already happened without his help. Paradox and Ben had nothing to do with Ben finding the Omnitrix in the first episode of Ben 10. Paradox also never mentions this before, proving he did "switch out" the timelines.
 
I think, Duv make sense. He clearly say it is the multiverse right there. This will make it a solid 2-B than 2-A. The info that Kukui show to me say all timelines and universes, but that was out of date info when I checked its info so this guy is listed everything as a fact.
 
@Duv in that Episode, Paradox said "It is a old friend used to said "It is Hero Time" http://*******************.eu/watch/ben-10-omniverse-s6-ep1-and-then-there-were-none/

Which again, we are gonna see if this is gonna get things confusing. Also a 2-A weapon? This is trouble. Also the other characters said "Multiverse", this is supported with what the Paradox said here.
 
Okay, if the profiles can stay at 2-A, perhaps we should close this thread?
 
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