About the tiering of Alien X and those who scale to him.

[EnderShadowr215]

Well I am heavily stressed out. Lack of sleep doesn't help me as much. I will tried to refrain from debating as I not good at this sort of thing. If anyone want to get it settled, I am okay with that. This is me being too reckless about it. I will take a nice break from the discussion for two hours and do other things as I will stop at this point.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

1. Im confused by your question.

2. Im fine with this as this wasnt my point at all, it came from someone else.

3. But the issue here is that Celestialsapiens dont live in the Forge of Creation, they are just created there. They live in other places outside of it like the Milky Way IIRC. Not to mention the Forge of Creation is never stated to even have erased time or even a void as we see nebulas in it as far as I know.

4. I dont see what this explains. If multiple characters can move in the place and even fight there with no issues, then either the place isnt timeless or they all have Infinite Speed which the latter isnt true.

5. How is that a plot convience? Kid Ben's omnitrix timing out is a natural function within it. It times out after a certain time and turns Ben back to humann. Its consistently happend for a large part of the series. Since this function still worked in the Forge of Creation, that means time was still flowing or else his omnitrix would never time out.

6. But if there's no time there, then there wouldnt logically be any timespan forr the babies to mature into adults. This is something that is confirmed by one of the creators so its true. Unless im missing something, this would mean time flows as it would be in order for them to grow older into Adults.

 

[Ryukama]

1. Well whether or not you think the Naruto Moon feat is inconsistent, which I can't personally comment on, I think if a character is explicitly stated/depicted as more powerful than a weapon, they can scale to that weapon as they would scale to a character they're more powerful than.

2. Frieza and Buu have been obviously disproven as being the strongest in the universe. Their statements don't matter. If a character is reliably stated to be the most powerful, with nothing that directly disproves or retcons that, they can have a rating based on that. And again being said to be the strongest inhabitant of a specific area doesn't immediately mean your power can't expand beyond that. It only means you're the strongest person who lives in that area in question.

3. Wait if no one actually absorbed Alien X or a baby celestialsapien's power, how is this even a point to begin with?

4. "Aggorgor's tier was never even near Tier 3 for that part of the series since he can be rivaled by Ben (without Alien X, he used his normal aliens), Gwen, Kevin and even Kid Ben."

Well again if he has insane absorbing hax that bypasses durability and the like, his own tier shouldn't have relevance to whether he can harm much higher beings given his hax is broken enough.

But if what you say about Aggorgor being much lower levels and being able to get rivaled by characters much weaker than Alien X prior, then him matching a celestialsapien can very easily be seen as an inconsistecy on his part. Not a disproof of Alien X's power level. Aggorgor has consistently had problems with people obviously much weaker than Alien X prior, so him combating Alien X is an outlier of Aggorgor's.

5. If I had a particular issue with/strong opinion about the Clockwork point, I would've said something. The way Clockwork was defeated doesn't seem scalable to AP to me. However if Alien X is actually stated/established to be more powerful than the bomb, I think it can still scale.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

1. Fair enough. But for this case, we never see Alien X or any of Ben's aliens become stronger than the bomb. We only see Clockwork reverse it with its effects thanks to the Bombs weakness and not his own power. Basically, Clockwork could only reverse it by taking advantage of the bombs weakness that allows any Chronosapien to use Time hax to reverse it, not because they are stronger than it. And even then I dont know why it would scale over to Alien X since AP isnt involved.

2. Also fair point. But can't Celestialsapiens have their power stolen by Osmoans? Would that imply they arent the strongest then?

3. I think I mentioned it because Aggorgor was fairly confident in taking the baby's power for himself since the beginning and if he really wasnt able to take its power, he wouldnt try it at all. Plus the baby isnt able to defend itself since it takes a very long time before it matures so it can't stop foes from taking its power. So it depends on whether or not he can truly absorb it of if the vast amount of power would just destroy him.

4. Again true. But Celestialsapiens arent normal aliens. Aggorgor's power is referred to being able to suck someones energy dry (despite only getting 1/10th of it) to where they become skeletons. Im not sure if that type of enrergy absorbtion can work on them but I can br wrong.

5. Yeah basically. Clockwork just used Hax in order to stop it and it was only because of Chronosapiens being the bombs weakness whenever its activating, not because of their own power. If it wasnt for that weakness the bomb wouldnt be able to be reversed. And I don't rememebr it ever stated that Alien X is more powerful. If it was, I dont see why Ben wouldnt just use Alien X instead of Clockwork to just outright destroy it instead of going through the trouble of reversing it.

 

[Executor_N0]

5. It was Ben from another universe that used Clockwork. In that case a Ben who never used the omnitrix and never heard of Alien X, much less would have the ability to argue with Belicus and Serena.

The use of Clockwork was a suggestion of Ben 10,000 for No Watch Ben.

 

[Ryukama]

1. If Alien X is a top/god tier and or is stated to be the most powerful entity or more powerful than a bomb. Or in this case I believe someone mentioned being stated to be more powerful than a weapon stated to be more powerful than the bomb, then I believe it still scales.

2. If Osmoans have a hax ability to steal powers, again it doesn't really indicate anything tier wise. Even then being the strongest =/= unmatchable power. Osmoans can still be capable of challenging or overcoming a Celestialsapien and yet Celestialsapiens are still the strongest overall.

3. You can't have it both ways. If Aggorgor never actually stole the baby's power, and him being able to do so is "speculative at best" like you say, then we can't use him absorbing the baby's power as an argument against Alien X's tier.

4. Many absorbing powers are treated as durability negating hax, so it depends. If Aggorgor never absorbed a Celestialsapien however, then again this isn't a point then.

5. Well there needs to be a story and suspenseful conflict. And doesn't Alien X have major weaknesses despite his massive power like the two personalities thing, which is why he uses less powerful aliens at times? Regardless if Alien X is stated/treated to be more powerful than the bomb/other weapons like it, the fact that Ben used a different alien to defeat it shouldn't really matter.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

5 its becuse X is too riskey for ben to use as long as there is another option colck work it scalles becuse it has been said by nomrest reliable sources that

A X is the strongest force in the univeres which would inclued the bome and

B the omnitricks is the most powerfull weapon in the universe which again includes the bome so X being the strogest Alien in it would need to be stronger then the bome.

2 yes they can but The celestial sapient could make them cease to exist with one thought and if they did they would also absorb the split personalities

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

1. Thats the thing. Has Alien X ever been stated to be more powerful than the bomb? We are assuming he is because hes the strongest in the omnitrix, a completely different type of machine and being the most powerful being shouldnt mean your stronger than the most powerful weapo IIRC. Because what if the weapon has powers that surpasses yours? Or is the other way around?

Points 2, 3, and 4 im fine with now.

5. Not in Omniverse. The Multiple persoanlity weakness is thrown out the window in Ben 10 Omniverse so Ben is able to use it whenever he wants without needing to come to agreement first. Thats why im sayimg if Alien X was more powerful than the weapon, then either No Watch Ben or any of the bens would have used him to destroy the weapon instead of going through the trouble of reversing it via Clockwork and all bens in existence were threatened by it so theres no reason why at least one of them wouldnt use him.

@Darkmon

Not entirely true.

Firstly, I'd like to ask. When someone says Alien X is the most powerful in the universe, do they mean the entire verse or just one single universe he reisdes in? We need to get that covered first as that still worries me (and confuses me) as if its stated to be a multiverse they would rather use multiverse instead of one single universe to describe Alien X as the strongest being.

And it still wouldnt scale because Clockwork still needed to rely on the bombs weakness to reverse it.

 

[Ryukama]

1. I believe people were bringing up statements of Alien X being superior to a weapon stated to be stronger than the bomb. I'd have to find those points.

2. Well regardless, if Alien X is stated to be more powerful than the bomb, Alien X not being used to stop it doesn't disprove that statement.

And if what Executor N0 says is true, then Alien X not being used is completely understandable and justified.

 

[Executor_N0]

5. Not in Omniverse. The Multiple persoanlity weakness is thrown out the window in Ben 10 Omniverse so Ben is able to use it whenever he wants without needing to come to agreement first. Thats why im sayimg if Alien X was more powerful than the weapon, then either No Watch Ben or any of the bens would have used him to destroy the weapon instead of going through the trouble of reversing it via Clockwork and all bens in existence were threatened by it so theres no reason why at least one of them wouldnt use him.

No, weakness still exists. Ben still needs to argue with Belicus and Serena according to Derrick, what happens is that he is now easier to convince the two entities. And this is only in relation to Ben Prime, nothing indicates that alternative versions like No Watch Ben have the same facility as Prime in relation to convincing Belicus and Serena.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Pofessor

Asmith and paradox said it and again like I said The only reason X wasn't used is its too riskey ben couldnt take a chance of not convincing them so he used what he knew would work clockwork we can't say someone not using a last rezort first as evidence against said last resorts power.


and they do mean A single universe becuse entities that transcend the universe in the void between them are stronger then X i dont know much about them other then that.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Kk. Also im doing further digging and I dont see what makes the Omnitrix more poweful than either weapon at all. The omnitrix itself outside of transforming ben into aliens is not a weapon at all, unless we count it nearly self destructing in Ben 10: Secret of the Omnitrix which is possibly no where near even Alien X's power or the bombs.

@Executor N0

Wait Really? I couldve sworn I saw Ben use Alien X no problem in the show......still then what about the other bens? Your forgetting that there are multiple bens and every Ben in existence was threatend to be erased along with the timeines, which so far we take as infinite. Surely there would have been at least a single ben out of them all who would have taken a chance to use Alien X and one of them using Alien X wouldnt effect the other ones who decided not to.

@Darkmon

Okay but even then we still can't use Clockwork stopping it as a way of scaling it as AP isnt involved at all. He was using his time hax to stop the bomb.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

here's the thing it's been scaled because it's been stated several times by very Smart characters that the omnitrikcs is the strongest weapon in the universe and that Alien X is the strongest force in the universe

and here's another question that makes your other argument completely irrelevant.how the heck would any of the bens know not to bother trying alien X? how would they know it wouldn't work? right now your argument is they didn't bother using it therefore it wouldn't have worked when they simply have no way of knowing this.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

and the thing that makes the Omni tricks the most powerful weapon is that it's been said by paradox

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And where is that stated? The omnitrix is not a weapon outside of making Ben transform into his aliens it doesnt have any other battle features to it at all. The only time this is different is when Ben as a kid had the Omnitrix nearly self destruct and it was stated to destroy the entire universe. And we never get anymore details after that so we have no clue on whether it could destroy the physical matter of the universe or its space-time. So it can be anywhere from 3-A to Low 2-C. Unless is there something in Omniverse or previous seasons that have something better? Because im pretty sure I have never heard of the Omnitrix being able to destroy all timelines, universes and beyond.

Maybe they can just ask the other ben? Also Im confused by your question because its asking how would they know not to use it. That would mean they would know to use it instead of not using it.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Darkmon Okay enough of this. You are claiming too much without linking any evidence to shown on the contrary. I clearly has come back from mediation, then all of sudden you are making claims without linking it for all to see. You better not twist things around you are doing right now. I myself tried to stay as calm and polite in this as I can. However if you provide evidence on the contrary, then We will know it is true as that is like all saying that one of the Ben(s) is stronger than the other bens in existence.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

@Darkmon Okay enough of this. You are claiming too much without linking any evidence to shown on the contrary. I clearly has come back from mediation, then all of sudden you are making claims without linking it for all to see. You better not twist things around you are doing right now. I myself tried to stay as calm and polite in this as I can. However if you provide evidence on the contrary, then We will know it is true as that is like all saying that one of the Ben(s) is stronger than the other bens in existence.

man calm down will ya? I never said anything like that.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Sorry it is so complicated as this situation has been mishandled with information and other stuff. I trying to see if it can get settled as I don't want anyone to waste their time arguing over this. It is best to get this thread closed as the more I let this open. The more convincingly we just go with what we have for the moment due to several disagreements made by some other people. I think I open this thread all for sake of wasting time typing on here.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Please guys lets calm down. Lets be more civil about this alright?

PS- Darkmon just to let you know I don't hate you or anything like that just because of this argument lol. So if you thought that, I apologize.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Kukui I not truly angry at anyone. I am upset at myself as of now. It is true to even this day. Just close this thread as I don't want it to continue anymore as it is.

 

[Ryukama]

@Star you may not want to discuss this, but there are many users that still want/need to discuss this topic. As it is a very significant and important change regarding very popular characters.

If you don't want to continue, just leave the thread and stop commenting. But a mod can't close this for you until the topic finally reaches a consensus.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

• sigh* @Ryu Fair enough I am completely impatient as it is. Well I supposed I could end things here with how things are going on. I have a very dangerous mind set when I am upset at myself for causing unwanted attention as it is. I suppose this advise will do.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

And where is that stated? The omnitrix is not a weapon outside of making Ben transform into his aliens it doesnt have any other battle features to it at all. The only time this is different is when Ben as a kid had the Omnitrix nearly self destruct and it was stated to destroy the entire universe. And we never get anymore details after that so we have no clue on whether it could destroy the physical matter of the universe or its space-time. So it can be anywhere from 3-A to Low 2-C. Unless is there something in Omniverse or previous seasons that have something better? Because im pretty sure I have never heard of the Omnitrix being able to destroy all timelines, universes and beyond.

Maybe they can just ask the other ben? Also Im confused by your question because its asking how would they know not to use it. That would mean they would know to use it instead of not using it.

1 it's been said in the series that it is the strongest weapon in the universe incluiding by paradox no it was not originally made to be a weapon but ben turned it into one

2 am saying that your basicly saying they arnt bothering useing X because they know it wont work is that not your argument when you brout up the infinety bens thing?

 

[Darkmon_cns]

don't worry I know this is just another debate

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay but in what format however? A computer can more powerful than another computer but it doesnt mean it can destroy anything, its just a more advanced version of said computer. When Paradox said that how did he mean it as? Did he mean it as a weapon that can destory everything? Or just a weapon thats more advanced than any other one in the universe? I think people are taking "more powerful" out of preportion when it can just possibly be more advanced and this is likely as the Omnitrix doesnt have any offensive features to it at all other than making Ben transform into his aliens. The only time it does have an offensive feature is its self destruct feature in Ben 10 Secret of the Omnitrix, which is stated to be able to cause an explosion thats either 3-A or Low 2-C at best and we have no way of telling which is more likely. Other than that, the Omnitrix is just a normal alien machine designed to make Ben transform into any alien he wants. It can't attack or destroy anything on its own, especially at tier 2 or more specifically, 2-B/2-A levels.

Not exactly. You may be a bit confused. When I brought up the infinite bens, I used it as a way of claiming why none of the bens out of them all was willing to use Alien X, especially when they had an easier way of convicing the personailites to work together. If it was just one ben, I'd completely understand why he wouldnt use Alien X. But in this case, we have literally an endless amount of Bens from every timeline which we take as Infinite atm. There is no reason why at least one of the bens wouldnt use Alien X when the other bens could be any other alien besides Alien X.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

1 as a weapon because they call it the most powerful weapon in the universe which would imply the Alien transformation which the strongest of them would be alien X

2 heres the simply anser it would have been very anticlimactic and bad storytelling if a random ben From another universe used Alien X to fix everything who would like that?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

1. That makes no sense. If it doesnt have any features or capabilities of making it a weapon then its surely not the strongest weapon, just the most advanced weapon. It wouldnt even classify it as a weapon. Its just an advanced alien device. And the strength of the weapon in any case doesnt have anything to do with the aliens.

2. Well Bens the main character and in this case we have an infinite amount of him. If any one of them were to do so it wouldnt be bad storytelling it would just be the main character, meaning one of them, defeating the enemy like any of them would do since they're, well, Ben. I hardly see how this is a point when all of the versions of him are still him.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

1 yes it does turning into the aliens is how it's a weapon The strongest of those aliens is alien X look people of the universe call it a weapon and The strongest assets with that weapon is alien X

2 no because none of the narrative is focused on them Focus on the group of bens were with if a random been in the multiveres could have fixed everything them it would have ment the group we were watching and rooting for the whole time was completely unnecessary its a copout.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

1. Then its just a device that has him transform into those aliens, otherwise a transformation weapon. Its not a weapon where it can destroy anything on its own, its only offensive feature is Alien Transformation. The strength of said Alien has nothing to do with the device itself.

2. They are all the same ben just from different points in the whole multiverse. They arent just random people who are different to each other, its the same ben. So I don't see how story production and things like that can be argued here when you have an endless number of the same character.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

1. Then its just a device that has him transform into those aliens, otherwise a transformation weapon. Its not a weapon where it can destroy anything on its own, its only offensive feature is Alien Transformation. The strength of said Alien has nothing to do with the device itself.

2. They are all the same ben just from different points in the whole multiverse. They arent just random people who are different to each other, its the same ben. So I don't see how story production and things like that can be argued here when you have an endless number of the same character.

1 .....did you just say that a weapon which may way of fighting is transforming transformans have nothing to do with the weapon?

2 no because it is a random individual separate from the group doesn't matter if it's another version of the main character it's not one of the characters we've been following it would've shown that the group of heroes we were rooting for we're completely unnecessary having something happen that makes your heroes unnecessary is the definition of a copout which is considered bad storytelling

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

1. Alien X is not a weapon. He is one out of billions of Aliens Ben chooses to fight with. He isnt a machine or device. The power of each indivudal alien Ben can become has nothing to do with the Omnitrix itself. Its just a decive that holds the dna of the Alien Ben can choose either randomly or passively to transform into and then fight as that transformation. That's all. The Omnitrix has no weaponry to its name in any way besides that.

2. That still doesnt make sense but this point can become somewhat opinionated so it may be best to leave it out of the debate. The overall point here is that there wasnt just one Ben. There was an infinite amount of them. Deciding not use Alien X because of the chances of not convicing Belcus and Serena would only work if there was only one Ben to stand against the destruction of all timelines. But with an infinite amount of them threatened, chances of using Alien X are literally 100% or strongly guaranteed.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

1 that's how its a weapon it gives the use of the power of every creature within it that how its a a weapon and the strongest alien in it is alien X.

2 again that would have been a copout and bad storytelling that's the simple answer The problem with dropping this it's the simple answer to why its like that theres not really any other reason

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

1 that's how its a weapon it gives the use of the power of every creature within it that how its a a weapon and the strongest alien in it is alien X.
2 again that would have been a copout and bad storytelling that's the simple answer The problem with dropping this it's the simple answer to why its like that theres not really any other reason

It doesnt give you the power of every alien, it gives you the DNA of every alien. It literally just stores the DNA within the device. Its with that DNA that Ben uses to transform into that Alien and then uses its abilities. Thats the reason why its referred to be the most "powerful" because its able to have the user transform into an alien of any species it gets. The power of the alien =/= the power of the omnitrix.

Im sorry but thats ultimately just an excuse at this point. Regardless of the amount there was more than one Ben fighting to stop the time bomb and so the other bens could have easily used Alien X while the other ones would use different Aliens so they wouldnt risk getting no compromise from Belcus and Serena. We may need to get others input on this point but in the end, this just seems to be an excuse because Alien X wasnt used. And why wouldnt any of the bens want to use it? With all the bens they had they had far more (Well infinitely more) chances of getting Alien X to work and with a threat such as destroying all timelines, the most logical answer was for one of them to use him. They got extremely luckly with using Clockwork and with the fate of literally everything on the line as well.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

1 wrong The aliens are the omniTrixie power why is it so hard to understand a weapons which main function is transforming that said transformations are considered its power?

2 becuse thats what it is The writers didn't want to do it that way because it would have been bad storytelling that's why alien X wasn't used because it would have been a copout I don't know what else to say because that's the answer.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

1. No they arent and heres an example to prove it:

Take the omnitrix from the first season of Ben 10. The one with only 10+ aliens in it. All of the aliens in there were what, not even Tier 7? Yet....

In Secret of the Omnitrix the omnitrix itself (NO aliens factored in) had a self-destruct function stated by Tettrax to be able to destroy the entire universe. Thats a 3-A or Low 2-C feat which is ridicuously beyond any Alien Ben had in his arsenal (and to be honest, his entire arsenal in the entire series with the exception of Alien X and maybe a few other aliens out of the billions he has).

The fact that the device itself has a level of power beyond the power of the aliens it allows ben to transform into proves that the power of the aliens and the power of the omnitrix are completely different.

2. They were facing a weapon capable of erasing every single timeline in existence, which we accept is infinite. Pretty sure Alien X would be a fine choice in destroying it since he's the only Alien claimed here to have a chance at stopping it.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

1 the self-destruct was never meant to be used there no reason to becuse of that that when there refering to the power of the watch that they don't mean the transformations.

2 sorry they just didnt do it like that theres probley no real reason it just it


3 no no one on this wiki except the six thouts statment

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

1. Exactly. The self destruct function is the power of the omnitrix and the omnitrix alone, not the alien forms. So the power of an alien has nothing to do with the omnitrix itself. Most of the aliens being like Tier 7 or 8 while its tier 3 or 2 proves it.

2. No real reason? What reason would their be to not use an alien who could stop all of existence from being destroyed?

3. Kk then hopefully it wont be brought up again like it was before.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

1 no the self-destruct is one thing it can do the alien forms are another thing it can do.

2 because he can do it so easily there would be no tension


3 hopefully

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

1. What does it being able to do other things have to do with both having entirely different levels of power?

2. Well the tension part would come from one of the bens reasoning with his personailities to get Alien X to work. But its not like it matters Omniverse wasnt that popular of a season anyway (though this is opinion so its best to leave it out).

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

bump