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What? Why assume it didn’t hit opponents that were standing in place?
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About the Kienzan
- Thread starter BOEGVELD
- Start date
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- goku krillin solar flare
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Ki sword is not the same technique as kienzan. Despite being energy, similar looking attacks and techniques can behave differently. It is absolutely not negating durability because it cannot harm much stronger opponents, it just has a higher AP to harm stronger opponents.
Please check out all the previous threads regarding the topic.
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We simply don't see it hit anyone, if your only argument against it being dura neg is an ambiguous shit where it may or may not have hit anyone then you know you're on the wrong side .
We already explained above why it just having higher AP due to piercing damage doesn't work when similar techniques from from faaaar superior characters don't even have the same effect , the fact that Ki swords exist proves that it's not just higher AP
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But the thing is if it was just AP then it doesn't just partially slash into the opponent who are technically even stronger than the technique.....they get cut clean through without resistance.
Also then Jiren and SSB Goku contradicts it....even though Jiren is stronger....they are not that far apart like Krillin and Frieza.....yet Jiren shatters them....which would imply Jiren has that much more AP compared to SSB Goku.
So you can't have your cake and eat it too....
Also then Jiren and SSB Goku contradicts it....even though Jiren is stronger....they are not that far apart like Krillin and Frieza.....yet Jiren shatters them....which would imply Jiren has that much more AP compared to SSB Goku.
So you can't have your cake and eat it too....
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Jiren literally caught it with bare hands.
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I know about the other threads , i disagree with them , wouldn't be here if i thought the was it was handled was right .
Why are ki sword any different ? You said yourself that it's special because it focuses on dealing cutting damage , same concept as the Ki swords , literally no difference
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Because it's not kienzan, duh. If a ki sword was that effective, Krillin would have used a ki sword and not a disc technique. The point remains, kienzan does not negate durability as stronger characters can be unharmed by it. There is no proof of it being dura negating. It is just a technique that can harm stronger opponents and that's all. Claiming it's dura neg is exaggeration with no strong basis.
Here are the previous threads where it was discussed and the current addition was made in Krillin's and the other's pages:
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Also it can't be higher AP , vegeta noticed it was weird despite not being able so sense energy and didn't have his scouter on , here's what he says , couple that with toriyama's statement and the idea that it's just higher AP can go out the window
Vietthai96
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It is Piercing Damage, cause what, if it is truly Dura Neg, Jiren can't hold or physically punch it, and it will not be easily detonated by a casual ki blast when Goku train with Krillin on a rooftop pre-ToP
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And Frieza got he's tail cut off and was about to be cut in half.
Nappa almost got decapitated.
Vegeta had to dodge it.
Even Goku got cut by it.
Also it was Great Ape vegeta that had to dodge a attack from a weaken Krillin. The same Vegeta that survived a Spirit Bomb
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Technically wasn't it base form Vegeta that tanked Genkidama??
I mean if that guy survived Genkidama....and survived beat up from KKX4 Goku....then Oozaru Vegeta taking conscious precautions in dodging Kienzan says it alll.....that it is Dura Neg....
Unless you want to end up with Kienzan>>>>>>Genkidama in AP
I mean if that guy survived Genkidama....and survived beat up from KKX4 Goku....then Oozaru Vegeta taking conscious precautions in dodging Kienzan says it alll.....that it is Dura Neg....
Unless you want to end up with Kienzan>>>>>>Genkidama in AP
Vietthai96
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Piercing Damage, debunk this before you claim anything about Dura Neg
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All the reasons that point to it being an attack capable of damaging much stronger opponents, yes. And there is also evidence of it not being dura neg because it fails to do any damage to a much stronger opponent. That's why the profile notes it as having higher AP.
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Piercing damage or not narrative wise Kienzan having so much tactical and "AP" superiority over Genkidama is wrong on every lvl...
Then Goku's effort to use Genkidama whether against Vegeta or Frieza is rendered useless if Kienzan has that much greater AP compared to a User's other attacks.
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We don’t visibly see the hit =/= it didn’t occur. Give me an alternative explanation for how an attack somehow missed all of them while they were standing still, otherwise Occam's razor favors the interpretation that they simply got hit and weren’t affected.
It’s not vague, it’s pretty obvious what the scene is trying to convey.
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Pray tell which opponents??
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Does Yajirobe have Durability Negation too?
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Dude play the scene in 0,5 speed and you'll see that the only attacks that hit them are gohan's ki blast and roshi's kamehameha, it's as simple as that , you don't need Occam's razor for this .
We aren't assuming anything, it literally didn't hit anyone
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Okay tell him to try and do the same to his headDoes Yajirobe have Durability Negation too?
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Isn't the saiyans tail treated as severe weakness , even for ones who have trained it??Does Yajirobe have Durability Negation too?
Even analyzing this in vaccum....thats just feat for Yajirobe's sword.....I have no problem with Dura Neg for him.....
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Ohh youuIsn't the saiyans tail treated as severe weakness , even for ones who have trained it??
Even analyzing this in vaccum....thats just feat for Yajirobe's sword.....I have no problem with Dura Neg for him.....
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Can you not read the thread or?
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no need to be rude
the only canon case of it failing is against jiren , but then again that's jiren and he hit the sides anyway
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Regardless of it dura neg or not, it still works on opponents a million times stronger than them. They literally should be spamming it, Krillin does to an extent, yet they don’t for the same reason they don’t spam ki blades, it’s probably not fun to win that way or something?
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That could work, although it should probably be relative to the person who’s using it, his power. So it‘d always be a few million times more powerful than the rating we have said person at at any given time.
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This is false, it can be dura neg on it’s sharp edge and not on the side. That way it doesn’t contradict anything, or at least nothing that’s 100% clear.
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Yeah this exactly ,because then the same multiplier can be used for other users of Kienzan...
My_area
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Just because it didn't happen doesn't mean I cant use it because these instances explains the mechanics of Kienzan which is what this thread is concerned about.If it would have happened in manga,it would be same as in the anime ie Cell tanking Krillin Kienzan and Gohan tanking Cell's Kienzam
Only one in canon that took head on doesn't mean others cant,Toei anime shows it that characters with sufficient high PL can tank Kienzan no problem and Kienzan works the same in anime as it does in manga.What using 1 feat over x others? I saw your comment now and you just called it PIS,forgetting the fact that they can simply hold back their strength
He isn't Low 2-C until he fights Jiren head on which is after his Kienzan scene where he isn't Low 2-C as he got stomped by same Jiren 1 episode back
I can,I already thought of a example which doesn't follow your rule but increases AP but I dont have to show it because you have yet to prove that they need to follow the rules you made in order to show increase in AP.
The Kienzan works the SAME in Toei as it does in manga.Same Nappa dodging Kienzan,Vegeta jumping from Kienzan,Frieza dodging Kienzan is there in anime.Manga having no scenes doesn't automatically make Toei scenes invalid when the mechanics of Kienzan is the same,it just didn't happen in the manga.Also Jiren punching Kienzan and throwing it back exists which Toei scenes just supports
But Jiren literally holds the blade from the side and throws it back..heck he even punches the blades on the edges though.....
My_area
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Again....assuming that its negating the durability in order to hit stronger opponent takes more assumption than it simply having more AP hence it hiting the stronger opponent.Even Occam's razor doesn't support durability negation due to the principle of making more assumption
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Not really because you're ignoring how big of an assumption it is that Krillin just multiplied his PL by multiple millions without any charge up nor anyone with a scouter or ki sensing ever mentioning it or reacting to it the same way they reacted to any such jump in PL when even all the way to DBS, everyone always commented on Piccolo's makankōsappō.
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Literally Kienzan has more boosted PL compared to any showing of Genkidama in DBZ if it is AP based......see how ridiculous it is.
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It doesn't multiply their PL, what? The attacks themselves are just stronger. That's the whole point of things like Goku using a condensed ball of Ki in his hand to punch Zamasu with. It's significantly stronger than him.
This, plus it being specifically designed to CUT things, can definitely solidify higher AP.
This, plus it being specifically designed to CUT things, can definitely solidify higher AP.
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And how do they become stronger??
Why shouldn't Kienzan maintain same amount of relative power difference compared to Krillin no matter how strong he is??
Why shouldn't Kienzan maintain same amount of relative power difference compared to Krillin no matter how strong he is??
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You don't know how attacks work in DB. Goku's kamehameha is directly shown to double his PL while he use it, same for Piccolo's makankōsappō. When you charge up an attack in DB, your power level jump proportionaly to the same level as the attack. Only exception is the genkidama because the energy doesn't come from you and doesn't enter your body either.
That's also why you can't just attack someone while they are charging unless they are an absolute non-threat to you.
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Yes, the power level of your condensed, focused ki is higher than your power level. That's pretty easy to deduce.
Where on earth did you get that stuff about them being physically way stronger when they condensed and focused their ki on a single point?
Where on earth did you get that stuff about them being physically way stronger when they condensed and focused their ki on a single point?
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There is no 'physicaly' in DBZ, it's all ki. When Radditz use his scouter on Goku and Piccolo, he say 'Goku's power level jumped to 920!' not 'His power level is still the same and there's now a signal from between his hands that's at 920!'. Until the ki is released into the attack, it's still in your body doing ki things like usual.
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