About the Kienzan

[VinnyXD]

It does,the fact the stronger opponents(Nappa,Vegeta,Frieza) has to dodge means that its much stronger than Krillin.Same evidence you use for durability negation can be used for AP increase

Proof that it raises AP?

Because
1. No charging time
2. No environmental effect
3. No mention on raising power levels
4. No yelling

 

[VinnyXD]

And? When did I say it did.It literally supports my point

Supports my point

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Seems to be better evidence for it being higher AP and/or piercing damage instead of dura neg.

The Kienzan has also failed to damage certain opponents in Super’s Anime.

 

[VinnyXD]

Seems to be better evidence for it being higher AP and/or piercing damage instead of dura neg.

The Kienzan has also failed to damage certain opponents in Super’s Anime.

How is this evidence for either? We didn't see it hit anyone. We see blue and yellow than smoke

 

[My_area]

Lmao

Sense when can you use non cannon to support to cannon. That's a new one

The fact that attack works the same irrespective of whether its the same medium or not?

Proof that it raises AP?

Because
1. No charging time
2. No environmental effect
3. No mention on raising power levels
4. No yelling

It doesn't have to do any of 4 in order to conclude that it has higher APwhen again stronger opponent than Krillin ie Nappa,Vegeta.Frieza had to dodge Kienzan which is proof that it raises AP hence it produced attack with AP enough for them to dodge.While proof that it negates durability by operating like a hax? Any statement or indication?

Supports my point

Lol no.My point is that Jiren has shown to punch and hold Kienzan with no injury so no its not durability negating.Doesn't help your point at all

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

How is this evidence for either? We didn't see it hit anyone. We see blue and yellow than smoke

The opponents were stunned in place from Tien’s Solar Flare. Why wouldn’t it have hit them?

 

[My_area]

Seems to be better evidence for it being higher AP and/or piercing damage instead of dura neg.

The Kienzan has also failed to damage certain opponents in Super’s Anime.

I literally didn't know about this scene.Good find

How is this evidence for either? We didn't see it hit anyone. We see blue and yellow than smoke

They all shoot the attack like Krillin shoots his Kienzan and it doesn't do anything to them as denoted by smoke

 

[VinnyXD]

The fact that attack works the same irrespective of whether its the same medium

And again non cannon supporting canon isn't something that's done.

 

[My_area]

And again non cannon supporting canon isn't something that's done.

And you keep missing my point.It being non canoncial doesn't mean that Kienzan doesn't work the same hence if there is no evidence that Kienzan works differently in Toei then I can absolutely use it to show how it can be resisted by someone with much higher durability.Saying its "non canon!" literally doesn't refute my point unless you can prove that Kienzan doesn't work the same in Toei

 

[VinnyXD]

It doesn't have to do any of 4 in order to conclude that it has higher APwhen again stronger opponent than Krillin ie Nappa,Vegeta.Frieza had to dodge Kienzan which is proof that it raises AP hence it produced attack with AP enough for them to dodge.While proof that it negates durability by operating like a hax? Any statement or indication?

Considering attacks that hurt stronger enemies via AP in Dragon Ball usual do this. But the disk doesn't would make it not AP

 

[Kin201]

The reason it negs durability is because it is so sharp right?

 

[My_area]

Considering attacks that hurt stronger enemies via AP in Dragon Ball usual do this. But the disk doesn't would make it not AP

Yes they hurt the opponent usually due to AP of their attacks.Disk does and hence it can be concluded as AP.

The reason it negs durability is because it is so sharp right?

Apparently and I dont agree

 

[VinnyXD]

And you keep missing my point.It being non canoncial doesn't mean that Kienzan doesn't work the same hence if there is no evidence that Kienzan works differently in Toei then I can absolutely use it to show how it can be resisted by someone with much higher durability.Saying its "non canon!" literally doesn't refute my point unless you can prove that Kienzan doesn't work the same in Toei

Again non cannon aka can't use. Your point doesn't work here. In less some mods wanna tell me we can now use non cannon stuff just because it's similar.

 

[VinnyXD]

Lol no.My point is that Jiren has shown to punch and hold Kienzan with no injury so no its not durability negating.Doesn't help your point at all

My point is for Jiren to get resistance to Durability Negation it helps

 

[My_area]

Again non cannon aka can't use. Your point doesn't work here. In less some mods wanna tell me we can now use non cannon stuff just because it's similar.

Again,you can keep on repeating the same point without explaining why it being non canon magically equates to Kienzan operating differently? No we dont use non canon stuffs unless they have literally same things like basic mechanics of the verse lol

My point is for Jiren to get resistance to Durability Negation it helps

It doesn't prove how Jiren punching and throwing Kienzan means resistance to durability rather than just overpower it due to sheer AP

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Again,you can keep on repeating the same point without explaining why it being non canon magically equates to Kienzan operating differently? No we dont use non canon stuffs unless they have literally same things like basic mechanics of the verse lol

It doesn't prove how Jiren punching and throwing Kienzan means resistance to durability rather than just overpower it due to sheer AP

Jiren hit them on the sides.....and caught them on the sides.....so unless you want to say that flat side of disc also does damage...Jiren's interaction with them isn't going to count for tanking.

 

[Purgy]

Could probably be treated similarly to Wolverine's claws in that they're just given an AP rating up to the maximum thing they harmed but not complete durability negation.

Though I'm neutral overall and either could work.

 

[VinnyXD]

The opponents were stunned in place from Tien’s Solar Flare. Why wouldn’t it have hit them?

You believe it hit all of them? We don't know who hit who.

Actually how the hell did they survive
2 of them are star level
1 is solar system
1 is universe

While Piccolo and Gohan are both universe yet did nothing to the far weaker ones.
This scene is PIS.

 

[VinnyXD]

Again,you can keep on repeating the same point without explaining why it being non canon magically equates to Kienzan operating differently? No we dont use non canon stuffs unless they have literally same things like basic mechanics of the verse lol

You realize no one in the original canon run of Dragon Ball blocks or whatever the disk right? They dodge or get cut.
Toei again non cannon shows what has not been done in the cannon run. As characters surviving without getting cut.
They aren't following each other.

Also what non cannon scenes are you talking about because we definitely can't use something like Cell.

 

[VinnyXD]

It doesn't prove how Jiren punching and throwing Kienzan means resistance to durability rather than just overpower it due to sheer AP

You realize Goku and Jiren are in the same league here. The difference isn't like Frieza and Krillin. If AP is involved Jiren would have to power up.

 

[VinnyXD]

Yes they hurt the opponent usually due to AP of their attacks.Disk does and hence it can be concluded as AP.

And they all do what I listed but the disk is the only one that doesn't. Making it not AP related

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

You realize Goku and Jiren are in the same league here. The difference isn't like Frieza and Krillin. If AP is involved Jiren would have to power up.

Yes that is a very vaid point.....and as GreenShifter said....if we are going with AP.....we would have to use Krillin-Frieza AP difference and conclude that Jiren would also have to power up that much....which is very large.

 

[My_area]

Jiren hit them on the sides.....and caught them on the sides.....so unless you want to say that flat side of disc also does damage...Jiren's interaction with them isn't going to count for tanking.

Jiren was punching through Kienzan blades which still have the same AP and literally held Kienzan wjfh fhe edges lol.So yes it does count as not working against him

You realize no one in the original canon run of Dragon Ball blocks or whatever the disk right? They dodge or get cut.
Toei again non cannon shows what has not been done in the cannon run. As characters surviving without getting cut.
They aren't following each other.

Also what non cannon scenes are you talking about because we definitely can't use something like Cell.

Just because it was never thrown at them doesn't mean they cant when Toei verse has shown it where Kienzan has same canoncial scenes and same mechanic was shown to be tanked by the characters
Its not being done in canonical show doesn't impact the mechanics of Kienzan which is still the same

Toei anime scenes like Krillin Kienzan not hurting Perfect Cell or Perfect Cell Kienzan against SSJ2 Gohan.Why cant Cell scenes be used as example for how kienzan works?

 

[My_area]

You realize Goku and Jiren are in the same league here. The difference isn't like Frieza and Krillin. If AP is involved Jiren would have to power up.

"Same league"
Literally world aparts difference where Goku is getting stomped.And difference is definitely more than Frieza and Krillin.Jiren doesn't have to power up if its AP since he is that much superior to Goku

And they all do what I listed but the disk is the only one that doesn't. Making it not AP related

Just because it doesn't do what you iisted doesn't not make it AP.You still didn't explain how it doesn't make it AP related

Yes that is a very vaid point.....and as GreenShifter said....if we are going with AP.....we would have to use Krillin-Frieza AP difference and conclude that Jiren would also have to power up that much....which is very large.

Gap is literally more than infinite times so that Krillin-Frieza AP argument doesn't work.Goku started keeping up with Jiren later in the episode.So no Jiren doesn't have to power up that much when he is more superior to Goku than Buutenks was for Goku which is larger than between Frieza and Krillin

 

[VinnyXD]

Lmao

You are literally saying "it didn't happen but we should still count it"

 

[My_area]

No..We should count it as example because Kienzan mechanics is same as that in Toei and in canon unless you can prove it isn't which so far you have made no efforts to other than just attacking the canoncity part

 

[VinnyXD]

"Same league"
Literally world aparts difference where Goku is getting stomped.And difference is definitely more than Frieza and Krillin.Jiren doesn't have to power up if its AP since he is that much superior to Goku

The difference between Krillin and Frieza are in the millions....
You think Goku took a punch a millions times stronger in the face.....

 

[VinnyXD]

No..We should count it as example because Kienzan mechanics is same as that in Toei and in canon unless you can prove it isn't which so far you have made no efforts to other than just attacking the canoncity part

So basically yeah.

Let's use stuff that never happened because the same move is involved.


Why can't you use the canon source like we do for everything else in Dragon Ball? Probably because it goes against your point

 

[My_area]

The difference between Krillin and Frieza are in the millions....
You think Goku took a punch a millions times stronger in the face.....

Not as much as its between Goku and Jiren
Yes he did since SSB Goku at that time is 3-A while Jiren is Low 2-C

So basically yeah.

Let's use stuff that never happened because the same move is involved.


Why can't you use the canon source like we do for everything else in Dragon Ball. Probably because it goes against your point

Its not about not happening,its about it proving my point that Kienzan doesn't work on opponent with AP much higher than Kienzan.Again no reason to assume Kienzan changes in Toei verse so there is no argument given as to why I shouldn't use it

Jiren still supports my point and Maverick Zero X latest find does too but I brought up anime because it reinforces the same point.Any reason why anime cant be used when it also has Nappa dodging kienzan,Great Ape Vegeta jumping from one,Frieza dodging them just to explain mechanics of Kienzan?

 

[VinnyXD]

"

Just because it doesn't do what you iisted doesn't not make it AP.You still didn't explain how it doesn't make it

Actually yes because everything I listed happens or is mentioned when a attack hurts a stronger enemy. Expect the disk.

 

[My_area]

Actually yes because everything I listed happens or is mentioned when a attack hurts a stronger enemy. Expect the disk.

No its not always mentioned,its inferred and no it doesn't have to fulfill your list in order to have stronger AP.Again seeing no reason as to why its durability negation over AP when its making a bigger assumption than AP one

 

[VinnyXD]

"Millions"
It isn't that much and yes he did since SSB Goku at that time is 3-A while Jiren is Low 2c

Millions isn't that much what lol

Did you even read Goku Page? He's Low 2C

 

[VinnyXD]

No its not always mentioned,its inferred and no it doesn't have to fulfill your list in order to have stronger AP.Again seeing no reason as to why its durability negation over AP when its making a bigger assumption than AP one

Show me a move that doesn't follow what I said(Canon)

 

[My_area]

Millions isn't that much what lol

Did you even read Goku Page? He's Low 2C

I removed that part since I was wrong

Low 2-C in SSB which is AFTER he uses Kienzan where he still isn't Low 2-C

Show me a move that doesn't follow what I said(Canon)

I can but no reason to when nothing says that they have to follow your rule in order to show that they have stronger AP

Also can you not respond to me in singular comment fashion.Address me in 1 comment so it doesn't clog the thread.Thank you

 

[VinnyXD]

Its not about not happening,its about it proving my point that Kienzan doesn't work on opponent with AP much higher than Kienzan.Again no reason to assume Kienzan changes in Toei verse so there is no argument given as to why I shouldn't use it

Jiren still supports my point and Maverick Zero X latest find does too but I brought up anime because it reinforces the same point.Any reason why anime cant be used when it also has Nappa dodging kienzan,Great Ape Vegeta jumping from one,Frieza dodging them just to explain mechanics of Kienzan?

So yeah again use something that didn't happen.

Jiren is the only one in canon that took it head on. I didn't know we use one feat over X others. I already proven why Maverick doesn't work.

 

[VinnyXD]

I removed that part since I was wrong

Low 2-C in SSB which is AFTER he uses Kienzan where he still isn't Low 2-C

I can but no reason to when nothing says that they have to follow your rule in order to show that they have stronger AP

Also can you not respond to me in singular comment fashion.Address me in 1 comment so it doesn't clog the thread.Thank you

Low 2C as a SSB. He uses as he's Blue. Nothing on he's page says before powering up or anything.

Ok so you can't prove me wrong.

 

[AKM sama]

It should be noted that the Destructo Disc can cut through opponents that are several times stronger and more durable.

It's already noted on the page. Destructo Disc just has a higher AP due to being a specialized attack that focuses all the energy to on dealing cutting damage. Krillin even has a separate higher stat with his Destructo Disc.

 

[CR_Catinho]

It's already noted on the page. Destructo Disc just has a higher AP due to being a specialized attack that focuses all the energy to on dealing cutting damage. Krillin even has a separate higher stat with his Destructo Disc.

Ki swords work using the same concept but don't nearly do the same thing as the kienzan, that should be removed and replaced by dura neg , the verse threats it as such , it has a direct statement frim the author and the only anti-feat it has is non canon

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

The Kienzan has also failed to damage certain opponents in Super’s Anime.

 

[CR_Catinho]

You can't claim it hit anyone, we don't even see it reach the ground and there's smoke everywhere , so that shot is unusable