About the Kienzan

[My_area]

Non cannon means can't be used. Everyone also mods would agree

Yes it cant be used for scaling.It doesn't mean the scenes where attacks with same mechanics operates cant be used to prove a point which also has a canonical back up.

This is common knowledge chief

Common knowledge that they cant be scaled yes but I am not scaling them lol,just using the application of the same mechanic of Kienzan to explain how it works.

If Kienzan has higher AP, shouldn't the characters only use it instead of other ki based attacks? This kind of argument adds nothing to the conversation.

Because not everyone can use it maybe?

Why would we assume that Krillin and Goku can somehow amplify their AP by tens to hundreds of times without even charging their attack? That's a huge assumption with zero evidence behind it.

Because the simple fact that it can hurt the opponents with higher durability which still makes less assumption than it somehow having the ability ti negate durability which make 1 extra assumption with no evidence behind it

 

[BOEGVELD]

Because the simple fact that it can hurt the opponents with higher durability which still makes less assumption than it somehow having the ability ti negate durability which make 1 extra assumption with no evidence behind it

The fact that it can hurt opponents with higher durability proves that it negates durability... You're the one making extra assumptions, you know that, right?

 

[VinnyXD]

Non cannon means it can't be used at all. Scaling or other wise

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Also slashing trauma may not always cleanly cut without resistance......it may take some effort to do so. Especially against a comparable or stronger opponent.

But Kienzan on the other hand experiences no such drawbacks......it cuts clean through....without resistance....further support for Dura Neg.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Why dont you just make a CRT on this then we can argue this stuff and if its circular like its now then we can just go for votes.Contacting other mods for the CRT would be a better choice too as well

They did. It got shut down.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Also slashing trauma may not always cleanly cut without resistance......it may take some effort to do so. Especially against a comparable or stronger opponent.

But Kienzan on the other hand experiences no such drawbacks......it cuts clean through....without resistance....further support for Dura Neg.

That's just proof for significantly higher AP

 

[My_area]

The fact that it can hurt opponents with higher durability proves that it negates durability... You're the one making extra assumptions, you know that, right?

It just proves that it has higher AP,not durability negation.Assuming that it specifically hurts stronger opponents due to negating durability makes more assumption then saying it simply has higher AP so no I am not making more assumptions.

Non cannon means it can't be used at all. Scaling or other wise

Scaling yes but the attacks which has same mechanics? No,nobody said it cant be used

Also slashing trauma may not always cleanly cut without resistance......it may take some effort to do so. Especially against a comparable or stronger opponent.

But Kienzan on the other hand experiences no such drawbacks......it cuts clean through....without resistance....further support for Dura Neg.

It just means it possess AP to a degree that it can cut the opponent without them being able to give resistance akin to Trunks slashing Mecha Frieza easily.

So it doesn't particularly supports durability negation at all.Gohan and Cell tanking Kienzan and Jiren destroying then and holding the blades says no to durability negation

They did. It got shut down.

Can you show me examples of threads made on durabilty negation for Kienzan which got shut down thank you

 

[Axxtentacle]

The fact that it can hurt opponents with higher durability proves that it negates durability... You're the one making extra assumptions, you know that, right?

No, just proves piercing damage + confirms than condensed ki attacks are stronger than the user

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

So it doesn't particularly supports durability negation at all.Gohan and Cell tanking Kienzan and Jiren destroying then and holding the blades says no to durability negation

Difference between SSJ2 Gohan and Perfect Cell was only around 100 times.... High4C 11FOE.....to 4B 1.053KFOE....
Which should be impossible considering Krillin a 5B( 59 Zettatons) cut Frieza who was around many tens of Tenatons....literally millions of time of difference.

So there is too much contradiction.

As for Krillin trying to cut Perfect Celll but failing can be put to too much gap hence "limited Dura Neg".....

And this is all considering this is Toei....not Manga....and filler at that.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Durability negation literally is an attack that ignores durability. If it can be handled by a strength gap, then it's not dura neg. It's just a really strong technique.

 

[My_area]

Difference between SSJ2 Gohan and Perfect Cell was only around 100 times.... High4C 11FOE.....to 4B 1.053KFOE....
Which should be impossible considering Krillin a 5B( 59 Zettatons) cut Frieza who was around many tens of Tenatons....literally millions of time of difference.

So there is too much contradiction.

As for Krillin trying to cut Perfect Celll but failing can be put to too much gap hence "limited Dura Neg".....

And this is all considering this is Toei....not Manga....and filler at that.

Yes since SSJ2 Gohan whose gap is hardly much WAS able to tank Cell Kienzan while 2nd form Frieza tail was cut by Krillin Kienzan does imply that Kienzan isn't consistent with AP jump which might be the case with manga too.Since Kienzan operates the same way in manga as it does in anime
Since if Kienzan is going to be changed to durability negation,it will affect Toei verse too.Yeah its fillers but its valid part in Toei anime,

Durability negation literally is an attack that ignores durability. If it can be handled by a strength gap, then it's not dura neg. It's just a really strong technique.

Yeah this limited durability negation which works on specific range stuff literally makes no sense lol.Thats just assuming more over already assumed durability negation XD

 

[My_area]

Also I remember that Krillin in Toei anime isn't 5B because Vegeta in Toei anime would scale to King Vegeta who is High 5-A so Krillin is in similar margins ie 1.8052586424117006041491099326847 Tenatons

While 2nd form Freiza is stronger than 1st form Frieza who is High 4-C in range of 0.644 foe (Large Star level) but yeah either way the gap is still large

 

[BOEGVELD]

It just proves that it has higher AP,not durability negation.Assuming that it specifically hurts stronger opponents due to negating durability makes more assumption then saying it simply has higher AP so no I am not making more assumptions.

Yes, you are. I am not assuming it negates durability, because it has shown to negate durability. It's shown. Claiming it has higher AP is an extra assumption you're making. Furthermore, it is inconsistent and contradictory. You don't have to charge the Kienzan, yet it amplifies its user's strength more than a Kamehameha for example!? It doesn't make any logical sense nor is there any evidence to support this argument.

 

[VinnyXD]

Durability negation literally is an attack that ignores durability. If it can be handled by a strength gap, then it's not dura neg. It's just a really strong technique.

Some durability Negation actually has limits base on AP. Even than I wouldn't say the disk is one of them

 

[Axxtentacle]

Some durability Negation actually has limits base on AP. Even than I wouldn't say the disk is one of them

Then it isn't dura neg

 

[VinnyXD]

Then it isn't dura neg

Attacking organs isn't dura neg?

 

[Greenshifter]

To play devil’s advocate, heat ignores durability to an extent. You should still be able to tank it with sufficiently high dura though. Hence it is/will be limited dura neg.

 

[VinnyXD]

To play devil’s advocate, heat ignores durability to an extent. You should still be able to tank it with sufficiently high dura though. Hence it is/will be limited dura neg.

To add so does Electricity

 

[VinnyXD]

Naruto was mentioned earlier in he's is just cellular damage

 

[Axxtentacle]

Ripping out someone's heart with an ability is just full out dura neg, but we're not talking about that here. We're taking about a ki sawblade.

 

[VinnyXD]

Ripping out someone's heart with an ability is just full out dura neg, but we're not talking about that here. We're taking about a ki sawblade.

Hitting someone from the outside but attacking the organs is DN. And we talking about DN that AP can overcome

 

[Axxtentacle]

Ok? We're not talking about that. We're talking about a big, condensed ki blade.

 

[VinnyXD]

Some durability Negation actually has limits base on AP. Even than I wouldn't say the disk is one of them

 

[VinnyXD]

The main topic is the disk but I'm proving that AP matters with some DN. But the disk can effect a character millions of times stronger something not every DN can even do.

 

[Axxtentacle]

The DN factor of a punch is a side effect.

We're not talking about a side effect, we're talking about the main usage of it here. Which is to cut things.

 

[VinnyXD]

The DN factor of a punch is a side effect.

We're not talking about a side effect, we're talking about the main usage of it here. Which is to cut things.

And there is DN main effect and purpose is to attack organs. Via Physically attacks ignoring the outer layer. Higher AP can still block these. Literally my point is AP can stop some DN.

I said before I don't even believe the disk fall under these. Sense it effects a character millions times stronger

 

[Axxtentacle]

And there is DN main effect and purpose is to attack organs. Via Physically attacks ignoring the outer layer. Higher AP can still block these. Literally my point is AP can stop some DN.

Ok? That's not what this is. That's also not stopping the dura negation itself, it's stopping it from even occuring in the first place. If the shockwave doesn't hit your organs because you were tough enough to absorb it all beforehand, boom.

I said before I don't even believe the disk fall under these. Sense it effects a character millions times stronger

It isn't durability negation, so yeah.

 

[VinnyXD]

Ok? That's not what this is. That's also not stopping the dura negation itself, it's stopping it from even occuring in the first place. If the shockwave doesn't hit your organs because you were tough enough to absorb it all beforehand, boom.

It isn't durability negation, so yeah.

Who said anything about a shockwave? The move can literally ignore your out layer just hitting your organs. But higher AP can stop it

"That's not what this is" What are you talking about?


It is DN

 

[Axxtentacle]

Who said anything about a shockwave? The move can literally ignore your out layer just hitting your organs. But higher AP can stop it

...that's how the internal organs get damaged from a punch. The force from it isn't all absorbed on the outer layer, so the "shockwave" travels inside and hits your internal organ. Why are you arguing this when you literally don't know how it works?

"That's not what this is" What are you talking about?


It is DN

You have failed to prove that.

 

[VinnyXD]

...that's how the internal organs get damaged from a punch. The force from it isn't all absorbed on the outer layer, so the "shockwave" travels inside and hits your internal organ. Why are you arguing this when you literally don't know how it works?

Which part of ignore the outer layer you don't understand.

 

[VinnyXD]

You have failed to prove that.

You have failed to prove it's AP. Most people actually agree with us sense the first page. Hence why we could bring it to a vote. Which again I said for another thread

 

[Axxtentacle]

But punches don't ignore the outer layer??? They land on it, and the force travels through your body to hit the internal organs.

 

[Axxtentacle]

You have failed to prove it's AP. Most people actually agree with us sense the first page. Hence why we could bring it to a vote. Which again I said for another thread

Fallacy, people agreeing with you doesn't make it right.

Also, burden of proof fallacy. You've hit a double! You're arguing FOR durability negation. I am not expected to prove AP, you're expected to PROVE dura neg. But what you're saying doesn't PROVE durability neg.

 

[VinnyXD]

But punches don't ignore the outer layer??? They land on it, and the force travels through your body to hit the internal organs.

It's done by a punch/physical strike but sends something (energy/shockwaves etc into your body attacking your organs). The punch is just the medium. I should add there's many ways to do this

 

[VinnyXD]

Fallacy, people agreeing with you doesn't make it right.

Also, burden of proof fallacy. You've hit a double! You're arguing FOR durability negation. I am not expected to prove AP, you're expected to PROVE dura neg. But what you're saying doesn't PROVE durability neg.

And a couple (like 3 or 4 ) disagreeing doesn't doesn't make me wrong.

It does as again more people agree. AP increase has never even been mentioned when it comes to the disk.

 

[Axxtentacle]

It's done by a punch/physical strike but sends something (energy/shockwaves etc into your body attacking your organs). The punch is just the medium. I should add there's many ways to do this

Ok?? We're NOT TALKING ABOUT A PUNCH OR BLUNT FORCE. Additionally, this doesn't prove the punches ignores durability or disprove what I said at all.

And a couple (like 3 or 4 ) disagreeing doesn't doesn't make me wrong.

Ok, but your evidence doesn't prove it.

It does as again more people agree. AP increase has never even been mentioned when it comes to the disk.

The amount does not make it any better of an argument. If there's more people calling for tier 3 Naruto than there are people calling against it, do we just upgrade them anyway? No. We see how good the argument they're supporting is, and if it doesn't hold up, their opinions become irrelevant.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Scratch that.....no moe "limited" durabiliity....
Perfect Cell has resistance to dura neg...
And SSJ2 Gohan was PIS of highest order.

 

[Axxtentacle]

It's just not dura neg at all

 

[My_area]

Yes, you are. I am not assuming it negates durability, because it has shown to negate durability. It's shown. Claiming it has higher AP is an extra assumption you're making. Furthermore, it is inconsistent and contradictory. You don't have to charge the Kienzan, yet it amplifies its user's strength more than a Kamehameha for example!? It doesn't make any logical sense nor is there any evidence to support this argument.

No I am not.Its not shown negating durability lol,thats just you making a assumption that it negates the durability in order to hit opponents with higher durability since its assuming that Kienzan has durability negation ability which has 0 back up by the way,same evidence you are using for Kienzan is what I can use for higher AP,which makes no assumptions as its just hurting the strongest opponent due to higher AP.Again 0 assumption made unlike durability negation stance which already has contradiction in form of Jiren and Gohan easily blocking Kienzan which if it was durability negation,they wouldn't be able to do that.Yeah since Krillin Kamehameha wouldn't hurt 2nd form Frieza would it now?There is no reason as to why it doesn't make any logical sense and evidence is literally Kienzan being able to cut stronger opponents like Freiza and could have cut Nappa and Vegeta.Also it doesn't have to be charged in order to have stronger AP.

Give a promising argument as to why we should take a route which makes more assumption ie durability negation over route which makes less assumption ie higher AP.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Yes, you are. I am not assuming it negates durability, because it has shown to negate durability. It's shown. Claiming it has higher AP is an extra assumption you're making. Furthermore, it is inconsistent and contradictory. You don't have to charge the Kienzan, yet it amplifies its user's strength more than a Kamehameha for example!? It doesn't make any logical sense nor is there any evidence to support this argument.

No...? The assumption isn't automatically durability negation because it hurts someone way stronger than you.

repeating same stuff about condensed ki and piercing damage blah blah blah