• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

About the Kienzan

Status
Not open for further replies.
They can use the same ki for these techniques to amplify themselves to the same level, that's what you're arguing. Kienzan is a ki technique.
 
Bernkastelll said:
If kienzan was durability negation, shouldnt the characters only use it instead of others ki based attacks?
Click to expand...
So many ways to respond.
1. Cell and Buu can regen so wouldn't matter to them.
2. Try against Frieza and the Sayians
3.Out of character 99% of the time for someone like Goku and Vegeta.
4. Most the cast actually doesn't know it .
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Wut??
That "small spirit bomb" had same effect as KK4 Kamehameha....if not more....😑

And that Big Spirit Bomb was made by Goku who could somewhat match 50%Frieza with 20XKK amp....they are not that far...so even here Kienzan should have had "more AP" according your logic thus more useful according your logic.
Click to expand...
Same effect? Vegeta didn't take so much injury while tanking Kaioken times 4 Kamehameha while he nearly died against spirit bomb granted he was kind of weakened

Nah,Freiza was able to block Kaioken times 20 Goku Kamehameha who has a higher AP than Kaioken times 20 Goku so the gap is there,though big spirit bomb was stronger than 50% form Freiza and would have killed him as Frieza himself thought but he just survived due to his sheer resilience.The fact he didn't use Kienzan just means it wasn't strong enough.Also if it was "durability negating" then he would have used that rather than wait and gather spirit bomb just to get smacked around by Frieza until he could finally gather the energy in order to hit them
Bernkastelll said:
If kienzan was durability negation, shouldnt the characters only use it instead of others ki based attacks?
Click to expand...
If it really "negated durability" like hax then they would indeed use it more against stronger opponents but they dont because it being durabilty negation which makes more assumption than higher AP is shaky at best
 
And Kienzan AP is definitely not consistent as shown in Toei anime

When Kienzan could cut 2nd form Freiza and did cut his tail while the same Kienzan from Perfect Cell didn't do anything to SSJ2 Gohan whose gap shouldn't be so big as that between Krillin and Frieza

So it might be the same case in the manga as to it not always having million of times more AP than the user who throws it
 
My_area said:
Same effect? Vegeta didn't take so much injury while tanking Kaioken times 4 Kamehameha while he nearly died against spirit bomb granted he did become weakened
Click to expand...
You do realize that it only helps my point more right?? That just narratively shows Genkidama has more power than Kienzan....which would be contradicted if you go for AP route to explain it away which would end up making it superior to Genkidama.
As for not using it....well Vegeta dodge....just the same way he dodged Genkidama....and Gohan's pure heart ain't gonna help him reflect a Kienzan.....


My_area said:
Nah,Freiza was able to block Kaioken times 20 Goku Kamehameha who has a higher AP than Kaioken times 20 Goku so the gap is there,though big spirit bomb was stronger than 50% form Freiza and would have killed him as Frieza himself thought but he just survived due to his sheer resilience.The fact he didn't use Kienzan just means it wasn't strong enough.Also if it was "durability negating" then he would have used that rather than wait and gather spirit bomb just to get smacked around by Frieza until he could finally gather the energy in order to hit them
Click to expand...
Simple logic......if Goku used Kienzan Frieza would just dodge it viz superior speed and prior bad experience with Kienzan would compel him to do so.
 
And anyways like AKM Sama said,the thread discussing the mechanics of Kienzan was already discussed in the past,so if it needs to be changed to durability negation then CRT would need to be made as arguing here in this thread which just asks the question about Kienzan wouldn't do much good
 
My_area said:
And Kienzan AP is definitely not consistent as shown in Toei anime

When Kienzan could cut 2nd form Freiza and did cut his tail while the same Kienzan from Perfect Cell didn't do anything to SSJ2 Gohan whose gap shouldn't be so big as that between Krillin and Frieza

So it might be the same case in the manga as to it not always having million of times more AP than the user who throws it
Click to expand...
No one is asking for full on dura neg for Kienzan.....just a limited one.....relative power based.
 
My_area said:
And anyways like AKM Sama said,the thread discussing the mechanics of Kienzan was already discussed in the past,so if it needs to be changed to durability negation then CRT would need to be made as arguing here in this thread which just asks the question about Kienzan wouldn't do much good
Click to expand...
Uuuhh Uh exactly why this Q&A was made....so that people can discuss it and exchange opinions before CRT was made.
 
My_area said:
And Kienzan AP is definitely not consistent as shown in Toei anime

When Kienzan could cut 2nd form Freiza and did cut his tail while the same Kienzan from Perfect Cell didn't do anything to SSJ2 Gohan whose gap shouldn't be so big as that between Krillin and Frieza

So it might be the same case in the manga as to it not always having million of times more AP than the user who throws it
Click to expand...
Non cannon
 
Damn we are close to 300 posts now..

We had almost convinced everybody it was dura neg in first 30 posts.....untill you guys came and c*ck blocked us....🙄
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
You do realize that it only helps my point more right?? That just narratively shows Genkidama has more power than Kienzan....which would be contradicted if you go for AP route to explain it away which would end up making it superior to Genkidama.
As for not using it....well Vegeta dodge....just the same way he dodged Genkidama....and Gohan's pure heart ain't gonna help him reflect a Kienzan.....
Click to expand...
How does it help your point at all.Nope this doesn't lol,Small spirit bomb hurted base Vegeta and nearly killed him while Kienzan from Krillin had to be dodged by Great Ape Vegeta which is 10 times more than Vegeta's AP.So it does make it superior to spirit bomb but only small one

And you are forgetting that he somehow cant just throw multiple of them at Vegeta?
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Simple logic......if Goku used Kienzan Frieza would just dodge it viz superior speed and prior bad experience with Kienzan would compel him to do so.
Click to expand...
He could use Kienzan by taking advantage of the fact that Frieza cant sense ki or any strategy employed like he did against Jiren.Also Freiza doesn't necessarily has to dodge it,he could just blast it if he has higher AP than the Kienzan
Havok said:
Non cannon
Click to expand...
First of all anime is not "non canon"..at best seperate canon and second of all that doesn't address anything unless you can somehow show that if Cell would have canoncially thrown Kienzan at Gohan,he wouldn't be able to tank like he did in anime then I would accept your argument
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Damn we are close to 300 posts now..

We had almost convinced everybody it was dura neg in first 30 posts.....untill you guys came and c*ck blocked us....🙄
Click to expand...
Guess its a good thing that we came here and stopped the misinformation from spreading when CRT for durability negation wasn't even made
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
No one is asking for full on dura neg for Kienzan.....just a limited one.....relative power based.
Click to expand...
What the heck is limited durability negation but relative power based? That makes no sense,if it can negate durability then it should negate durability until some kind of hax or higher dimensions existence or something else prevents Kienzan from sucessfully cutting the person.
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Uuuhh Uh exactly why this Q&A was made....so that people can discuss it and exchange opinions before CRT was made.
Click to expand...
Looks like we know both sides now.Now a CRT for durability negation should be made instead of arguing as if its a CRT
Havok said:
"Misinformation"

Said the one using a non cannon source
Click to expand...
Too bad..your "non canon argument" doesn't debunk mine when I am using it as a basis for Kienzan mechanics and not to cross scale them or anything like that
 
My_area said:
Guess its a good thing that we came here and stopped the misinformation from spreading when CRT for durability negation wasn't even made
Click to expand...
Dude ..... really...you split my heart...💔..."misinformation"....😥🤧.....

Okay....time out....I am trying to use all given evidence to explain cogently why its dura neg...while your method requires a lot of assumption...

But I amma take a break now....will come back later with better arguements and debunk yours.
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Dude ..... really...you split my heart...💔..."misinformation"....😥🤧.....

Okay....time out....I am trying to use all given evidence to explain cogently why its dura neg...while your method requires a lot of assumption...

But I amma take a break now....will come back later with better arguements and debunk yours.
Click to expand...
I am sorry but that wasn't the intention.It was just a reply to us **** blocking you from convincing people

Alright...then remind me as to why cant it be done in a CRT where we can argue this instead of Q/A.I already explained why durability negation makes more assumption but okay

Well..sure thats upto you
 
Why dont you just make a CRT on this then we can argue this stuff and if its circular like its now then we can just go for votes.Contacting other mods for the CRT would be a better choice too as well
 
Havok said:
Gonna be honest in say most people stop caring.
We been going in circles.
We could bring it to votes
And Mod wise I know Akm Sama disagrees
Click to expand...
True.....its just that with so many DB CRTs going on.....it was considered better to wait untill their less of them so we can post CRT.
 
My_area said:
Too bad..your "non canon argument" doesn't debunk mine when I am using it as a basis for Kienzan mechanics and not to cross scale them or anything like that
Click to expand...
I could literally make a Question and Answer thread where people would agree you can't use non cannon stuff
 
Havok said:
I could literally make a Question and Answer thread where people would agree you can't use non cannon stuff
Click to expand...
You are again not getting my point.I am not using it because its "non canon" but I am using it because of Kienzan mechanics being the same in Toei anime as it is in the manga.If it was different then I wouldn't have used it as it couldn't be equalized with the anime.What the durability negation argument being made for canon can literally be applied in Toei verse as well as their Kienzan works the same way.Anyways make a CRT on durabilty negation as arguing here seems to be waste of time and that it wouldn't amount to anything here

If there are so many CRTs of DB then just wait.Arguing here as if its CRT appears pointless to me
 
My_area said:
You are again not getting my point.I am not using it because its "non canon" but I am using it because of Kienzan mechanics being the same in Toei anime as it is in the manga.If it was different then I wouldn't have used it as it couldn't be equalized with the anime.What the durability negation argument being made for canon can literally be applied in Toei verse as well as their Kienzan works the same way.Anyways make a CRT on durabilty negation as arguing here seems to be waste of time and that it wouldn't amount to anything here

If there are so many CRTs of DB then just wait.Arguing here as if its CRT appears pointless to me
Click to expand...
The reason you are using it doesn't matter.

It's the fact you are trying to.
Yeah we can wait
 
Havok said:
The reason you are using it doesn't matter.

It's the fact you are trying to.
Yeah we can wait
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter because it doesn't scale to canon? That somehow means that everything in Toei verse is different now? That makes no sense
I am not cross scaling them,merely just using Kienzan from Toei anime because it works the same way as in manga

Fine by me
 
Which essentially makes no sense.It not scaling to canon doesn't mean everything within it is different now lol
 
Bernkastelll said:
If kienzan was durability negation, shouldnt the characters only use it instead of others ki based attacks?
Click to expand...
If Kienzan has higher AP, shouldn't the characters only use it instead of other ki based attacks? This kind of argument adds nothing to the conversation.
 
Why would we assume that Krillin and Goku can somehow amplify their AP by tens to hundreds of times without even charging their attack? That's a huge assumption with zero evidence behind it.
 
From what I saw while reading the thread, I'm fine with it being durability negation, it sounds similar to Rasenshuriken, however, rasenshuriken is stated to directly target cells with the cut, but i don't think that it should matter here, because it could kill Nappa and Frieza right? but something that is a counter argument is Jiren being able to break and hold it with his hands, so, possibly durability negation or just a rlly good piercing damage should be ok, but that's my opinion
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Omegas03
DBS Lifting Strength nitpicks
Replies
6
Views
1K
Omegas03
Omegas03
XXKINGXX69
Question about Yhwach
Replies
2
Views
1K
Purgy
Purgy
TheFallenProfit
  • Locked
Why Is BoG Anime Goku Still Considered 2c?
Replies
22
Views
1K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
God of War Profiles with Unaccepted Abilities
Replies
10
Views
1K
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
Hinox
Time manipulation in Konosuba
Replies
2
Views
563
Hinox
Hinox
Back
Top