About the Kienzan

[My_area]

Exactly

Like if someone's specific attack hurts a opponent with durability million of times more than yours then we can simply conclude that it has millions of times higher AP hence it was able to hurt the opponent of such level rather than durability negation out of nowhere which makes no sense

So why is Kienzan treated differently in this thread just because it cuts like a blade?

 

[Vietthai96]

This seriously turned into a true battlefield, i think we move this to CRT

 

[Axxtentacle]

The Kienzan = durability negation thread already did.

 

[BOEGVELD]

No I am not.Its not shown negating durability lol,thats just you making a assumption that it negates the durability in order to hit opponents with higher durability since its assuming that Kienzan has durability negation ability which has 0 back up by the way,same evidence you are using for Kienzan is what I can use for higher AP,which makes no assumptions as its just hurting the strongest opponent due to higher AP.Again 0 assumption made unlike durability negation stance which already has contradiction in form of Jiren and Gohan easily blocking Kienzan which if it was durability negation,they wouldn't be able to do that.Yeah since Krillin Kamehameha wouldn't hurt 2nd form Frieza would it now?There is no reason as to why it doesn't make any logical sense and evidence is literally Kienzan being able to cut stronger opponents like Freiza and could have cut Nappa and Vegeta.Also it doesn't have to be charged in order to have stronger AP.

Give a promising argument as to why we should take a route which makes more assumption ie durability negation over route which makes less assumption ie higher AP.

Except, again, you're actually making more assumptions.

Durability Negation: The ability that allows users to damage the target, regardless of its durability. In particular, enables causing serious damage to a very strong opponent, even in the absence of large attack potency.

Krillin lacked AP against Nappa, Vegeta and Frieza. Frieza lacked AP against Goku. Goku lacked AP against Buutenks. Yet the Kienzan managed to either damage the opponent or consistently made them go out of their way to dodge it. That's literally how DN works. I'm not making any assumption here.

Assuming it's related to their AP is a huge extra assumption (with literally zero evidence behind it), and it creates inconsistencies. You have to assume that Krillin can somehow amplify his strength tens to hundreds of times, and you have to assume he can do this without charging. You have to assume that an attack that doesn't require charging amplifies its user's strength more than an attack that does. You don't have to be a genius to see that this argument is flawed and inconsistent.

Also, Toei's version is non-canon. Let's stop using it over and over to prove a point.

 

[BOEGVELD]

No...? The assumption isn't automatically durability negation because it hurts someone way stronger than you.

repeating same stuff about condensed ki and piercing damage blah blah blah

Hurting a much, much stronger opponent while lacking the AP is by definition DN.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Hurting a much, much stronger opponent while lacking the AP is by definition DN.

You didn't prove it lacked the AP, hurting someone significantly stronger than you isn't enough proof.

 

[ByAsura]

Firstly, where's Toriyama's statement that the Destructo Disk cuts through literally anything? It was mentioned earlier, but I don't see proof in this thread and can't find it. If someone gets this, it might be stronger evidence for Durability Negation.

Secondly, the only gap that's really impressive is Krillin cutting off 2nd Frieza's tail. He, Piccolo and Gohan all had the ability to slightly phase Nappa beforehand, and Buu is highly vulnerable to superficial damage. Cutting off an Ozaru's tail has also been done by far weaker characters, such as Puar (he doesn't have Oolong's limitation, but still cut off Goku's tail as a mere pair of scissors) and Yajirobe. I will agree, though, Krillin harming a character 27,000,000 x stronger than himself (more or less) is pretty good evidence.

Third, using Super is probably kind of a grey area. Both the anime and manga (henceforth known as Chou for simplicity) are supposed to be continuations of OG Dragon Ball, and the former uses scenes and characters from Z. I'm not saying either is non-canon, just that applying the anime's logic to OG DB is an unreliable method.

Lastly, no, harming a much stronger opponent is definitely not the definition or proof of Durability Negation. It can be, but you'd need to give proof, not just supporting evidence. I'm not trying to claim the Kienzan, though.

I'm taking a neutral stance here, but there's definitely not enough proof provided on either side. It's worth noting that the Daizenshuu only mentions that it has a sawblade-like quality, and nothing about Durability Negation.

 

[Greenshifter]

... guys for real. This entire discussion is something I’d ask some staff right before applying in on the page...

Edit: and I just got ninja’d by one lol.

 

[Greenshifter]

I think the main argument for dura neg here is that several techniques and weapons (Trunks’ sword, ki blades, special beam cannon, death beams) with less area (on their edges) than a Kienzan aren’t nearly as efficient as the Kienzan itself thus it must be a special case and have (limited) durability negation.

There’s also the unclarity on whether Jiren actually hit/held the Kienzan on it’s edges (before stopping it’s momentum) or not and if the Kienzan has (limited) dura neg then it’d be easier to claim Jiren just resists dura neg rather than claiming Jiren is a million times stronger than the Goku who used the Kienzan if you go with the piercing damage interpretation.

 

[ByAsura]

That's kind of a false equivalency, though. Goku was focusing all of his Ki to block the sword (one that's in the same league as Trunks' normal attacks), the SPC is designed to kill equal or stronger beings by overcharging, and there's no evidence that Death Beams can harm comparable or stronger characters (Goku blocks them head on). The techniques, although designed to pierce, are far too different to use them as proof.

I can see that argument. As I said, though, using the Super anime can be unreliable.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

But Trunks also infuses his Ki in sword to attack Goku.....both are liberally covered in aura....
So they are still equivalent.....especially at the point of contact between sword and finger...
Thats just proof that equivalent beings can shrug off slashing attacks..

The Special Beam Canon as you said requires overcharging.....yet somehow Kienzan yields much better results and rather effortlessly slices opponents even without charging it....means something is special about it.

 

[ByAsura]

Only Trunks is, not his sword. Goku has a smaller aura on his finger.

Krillin's version actually does have charging time, or at least the one he used on Nappa. It isn't as long as the SBC, but the techniques are also way different. Even if it's not stronger than Krillin, you'd still need to prove it's Durability Negation and not something like the buzzsaw-type power of the disk.

 

[Greenshifter]

one that's in the same league as Trunks' normal attacks

Actually it specifically seemed like he held it on the sides. I do remember Trunks bleeding in the anime though I think. This was kinda the point though, King Cold comments on how sharp it is yet it isn't nearly as effective as a Kienzan.

Goku was focusing all of his Ki to block the sword

That's also a good point, other characters should also be able to do this as well but simply can't against the Kienzan and instead need to dodge it.

the SPC is designed to kill equal or stronger beings by overcharging,

Fair, maybe? Although does this matter here? It got both more power than Piccolo's regular attacks and maybe less surface area so it should be way more effective than a Kienzan, yet isn't.

there's no evidence that Death Beams can harm comparable or stronger characters (Goku blocks them head on)

You sure about that? I remember 3-A Goku blocking a beam from 4-B Frieza so that really doesn't tell us much. Since death beams are ki attacks compressed into small beams it should have piercing damage purely by how physics works and if Goku tanks them head on on other occasions then that actually helps my point that despite having less surface area (and thus logically more piercing damage) than a Kienzan, it still isn't as effective as a Kienzan.

I can see that argument. As I said, though, using the Super anime can be unreliable.

Well we're also discussing adding it to Super Goku's page so it has to be brought up regardless.

The techniques, although designed to pierce, are far too different to use them as proof.

All of the piercing attacks being different from the Kienzan is also kinda the point.

 

[ByAsura]

My point was that it's a false equivalency. The point of the scene was that his power is from his strength, not his sword. Plus it shatters against 18's arm and fails to harm her, meaning that they should be in a somewhat similar league. I wasn't even trying to claim that he withstood the blade itself, and he didn't bleed an ounce in the anime. He was probably hit by the blade, if anything.

Who says it should be more effective than the Kienzan? They're not even similar, and Dragon Ball constantly plays fast and loose with beam sizes = power.

I'm talking about Frieza Saga Goku, who's equal to Frieza. They also cause explosions, in addition to piercing damage.

Ok, then.

That's my point, too. You're applying this logic to a different technique. It's not a beam, it's a buzzsaw, essentially.

Edit: Easter is almost over and I'm kind of losing interest in this thread already. Maybe make a CRT if you feel so strongly about this. There just isn't anything substantial, right now (that really goes for either side, not just your's). I'm unsubscribing before I delve in too far.

 

[Greenshifter]

K, well all what you just said comes down to prove that a bullet has more piercing damage than a blade/buzzsaw. Which shouldn't be too hard to do.

 

[ByAsura]

If you take the loosest interpretation of what I meant. Anyway, it doesn't matter, as I said before.

 

[Greenshifter]

Ok, well we'll probably create a CRT soon when the current DB CRT wave calmed down. Until that point it's probably pointless to discuss this further.

 

[BOEGVELD]

Freeza, chapter 80: ''And it will slice through anything!!!''

Daizenshuu 7, SAD: ''This ki's rapid spinning cuts through the opponent like an electric saw.''

Daizenshuu 7, SAD: ''Those hit by this attack would be cut to ribbons.''

Daizenshuu 2, SA: ''It cuts anything in two with one slice.''

More supporting evidence. I couldn't find anything about Toriyama talking about the Kienzan though.

 

[AwkguyDB]

Honestly
I’m for the Kienzan having Dura Neg, and Jiren having Dura Neg resistance, since this is not the only attack he’s resisted that negs dura.

Also Goku actively dodged Frieza’s rip off version but then in his next active fight he blocks Trunks’ blade with his finger tip. So yeah it’s been consistently shown to cut people regardless of their durability.
There’s more evidence supporting this than Higher AP and for those arguing Higher AP then you would have to support a higher gap between Supressed Base Jiren and SSJB Goku on the Low 2-C chain

I see this as an absolute win

 

[Orange]

Honestly
I’m for the Kienzan having Dura Neg, and Jiren having Dura Neg resistance, since this is not the only attack he’s resisted that negs dura.

Also Goku actively dodged Frieza’s rip off version but then in his next active fight he blocks Trunks’ blade with his finger tip. So yeah it’s been consistently shown to cut people regardless of their durability.
There’s more evidence supporting this than Higher AP and for those arguing Higher AP then you would have to support a higher gap between Supressed Base Jiren and SSJB Goku on the Low 2-C chain

I see this as an absolute win

So basically: give the kienzan a dura neg, and jiren durga neg resis, or make jiren stronger, which in return goku stronger.
An absolute win literally

 

[Orange]

Won't that mean goku and jiren will be thousands/ millions time stronger if it's just higher ap?

 

[Greenshifter]

I mean tbf I asked for a frame by frame analysis earlier since it is possible Jiren only targeted the sides of the Kienzans and it should be inconsistent for that version of Jiren to be that much superior to that version of Goku. But other than that yeah.

 

[AwkguyDB]

Basically and that could eventually help me out with my 2-C revision after Zamasu receives his upgrade

 

[Greenshifter]

help me out with my 2-C revision

I'm already halfway done with it. Give me the cue (well not literally rn) and I'll finish and post it.

 

[AwkguyDB]

I mean tbf I asked for a frame by frame analysis earlier since it is possible Jiren only targeted the sides of the Kienzans and it should be inconsistent for that version of Jiren to be that much superior to that version of Goku. But other than that yeah.

He literally grabs the disc disregarding the edge and throws it back at Goku

 

[Orange]

I see, I think kienzan should have limited dura neg imo. I'm all for full on dura neg but limited dura neg will satisfy everyone. Or you give it a higher ap and make jiren and goku thousand/million times stronger. Go and pick your poison literally lmao

 

[AwkguyDB]

I'm already halfway done with it. Give me the cue (well not literally rn) and I'll finish and post it.

We need Zamasu to get his At Least Low 2-C

 

[Greenshifter]

He literally grabs the disc disregarding the edge and throws it back at Goku

I guess that's fair, he could have potentially stopped it's momentum at the same time though.

 

[Greenshifter]

We need Zamasu to get his At Least Low 2-C

Just to be clear, I plan to upgrade Zamasu himself to 2-C or higher

 

[Orange]

Did zamasu fuse with uni 7 or the whole multiverse??

 

[Greenshifter]

I’d argue the whole multiverse/Hypertimeline, then started to branch out towards another Hypertimeline. But this is derailing.

 

[Orange]

Yeh, let's keep focusing on the kienzan first

 

[CR_Catinho]

I mean tbf I asked for a frame by frame analysis earlier since it is possible Jiren only targeted the sides of the Kienzans and it should be inconsistent for that version of Jiren to be that much superior to that version of Goku. But other than that yeah.

Could just be noted as a way to counter the technique lol i imagine a note saying " i you don't wanna get chopped, hit the sides "

 

[AwkguyDB]

I guess that's fair, he could have potentially stopped it's momentum at the same time though.

I mean doesn't really disprove anything major I would love to see someone stop the momentum of a moving blade without getting cut. I think that would just give Jiren his Dura Neg resistance

 

[Axxtentacle]

I mean doesn't really disprove anything major I would love to see someone stop the momentum of a moving blade without getting cut. I think that would just give Jiren his Dura Neg resistance

I mean, even if you say dura neg, grabbing a blade by the sides isn't resistance to dura neg if the blade cutting you is the dura neg.

 

[ByAsura]

More supporting evidence. I couldn't find anything about Toriyama talking about the Kienzan though.

Good. This is the kind of evidence I was talking about.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I think this thread should be moved to "General Discussion".

 

[AKM sama]

Everything is said and done here. We literally had this discussion a few months ago too. There is no proof that kienzan is dura negating technique, the claim is baseless and only relies on supporting evidence, not direct evidence, and even the supporting evidence is contradicted. It's simply a powerful slicing technique that can work on much stronger opponents but be ineffective on sufficiently strong opponents like Jiren.