About Reimu's Fantasy Nature

[Andykhang]

And where you found that explanation? there are nothing in this wiki that say like that? you might just create a conten revision board for that... like literly are you trying to downgrade the Tiering system?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality

"Reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined.[1] In a wider definition, reality includes everything that is and has bee, whether or not it is observable orcomprehensible. A still broader definition includes everything that has existed, exists, or will exist."

Well, the rest is in my own conclusion anyway.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Beings that are boundlessly above absolutely everything, including existence and nonexistence, possibility, causality, dualism and non-dualism, the concepts of life and death, and their analogues at any level.

And on the other hand... now this is vsbattle wiki or wikipedia?

 

[NoName666]

I would not be fun if it happen that way, cause then Reimu will become one among the 1-As maybe 0s aswell, if so then we can stop play the game for good.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

I see is he just trying to downgrade Tier 0 so now he can accept that Reimu have the potential to be Tier 0?

 

[Andykhang]

I would not be fun if it happen that way, cause then Reimu will become one among the 1-As maybe 0s aswell, if so then we can stop play the game for good.

^That could be why ZUN keep it as the Ultimate Mystery of Reimu and Touhou itself. We could continue guessing, debating, making conclusion and counter it while still enjoy the wonderful thing that's Gensokyo. Plus, it's help that it spark alot of question, like if she can't, is there's something that stop her? And if she can, then what is she. etc,etc...

 

[Andykhang]

I see is he just trying to downgrade Tier 0 so now he can accept that Reimu have the potential to be Tier 0?

Well, it's true that it look like I'm trying to downgrade them, seeing as I look like I'm trying to put them in something (rather than saying that's something they already in, state of being or something else). And yeah, I believe that she (or rather that abilty) could become tier 0. But again, this isn't true, yet or ever, as long as there isn't any proof for that. And I want to seperate the truth from belief.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

so basically you trying to downgrade them that you cannot understand to wank someone else?

 

[Andykhang]

^Uh... No? Again, I'm trying to said that they're in it right in the begining. Just like if they exist, there must be a "space" for them to exist (or, again, they wouldn't exist). So even though they are above anything and everything else, there's still something that they must exist in.

Or more like, even though they're beyond everything else and shouldn't have exist in our sense, the fact is that our thought pattern still contain a possibility, and thus Reality (state of being), for them to exist

 

[Dekoshu]

Andykhang, isn't what people would say a No Limits Fallacy by an enormous scale? If you have the time to realize that Fantasy Nature isn't even virtually omnipotent, then you know it has limitations.

 

[Aurugermil]

Calm down Andy. There are many fictions which employed "characters who can exist outside of reality". It doesn't automatically make them tier 0.

Regarding the space where those characters must exist, this wiki already put that information in Tier 1A: This "space" in which there is no dimension can be the background for any dimensional space.

 

[Andykhang]

Andykhang, isn't what people would say a No Limits Fallacy by an enormous scale? If you have the time to realize that Fantasy Nature isn't even virtually omnipotent, then you know it has limitations.

But I isn't even saying that it is virtually omnipotent. It's a NLF in the begining in that it doesn't have a limit because there's precisely nothing that support or denied it. The fact that ZUN said she can't be beaten by anyone in anyway is true, and the fact that she doesn't show any feat for that is also true.

 

[Dekoshu]

There are many transcendent beings who can exist outside of reality.

 

[Andykhang]

Calm down Andy. There are many fictions which employed "characters who can exist outside of reality". It doesn't automatically make them tier 0.
Regarding the space where those characters must exist, this wiki already put that information in Tier 1A: This "space" in which there is no dimension can be the background for any dimensional space.

Yeah, but (thankfully for the logic) usually it's because they have a limit to what reality they could escape, or the fact they exist and they go outside of reality is contradictory (because by definition, Reality is a state of being).

And by the way, isn't this have completely gone offshoot? I remember I just trying to explain Fantasy Heaven, then when I'm trying to explain how it's suffer from NLF, it's delve into the definition of Reality. I spend too many time for this instead of learning for the Final ,so I'm out.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

You out? Good! and hopefully no more of this Tier 0 still tied by existence nonsense.

 

[Aurugermil]

Rather than going in circle with the same speculation, it would be better if you just ask Zun about how many dimension structure Touhou has and if Reimu's Fantasy Nature can bypass any number of dimension concept or not. Good luck with your Japanese language though.

As far as I remember, no mention about Touhou numbers of dimension. The only relevant mention regarding dimension is that Gensokyo is another Brane world.

 

[Andykhang]

You out? Good! and hopefully no more of this Tier 0 still tied by existence nonsense.

Could we also agree that they exist as well? Exist yet not tied by existence is beyond existence and nonexistence.

Also, How can i find ZUN email anyway.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

They not tied by anything including reality and existence, the end, like literly look at the creator page:

True Infinity (The Creator is boundless, freed from all restrictions, even life, death, and meaning)

and also https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/332880

I am the person who reported you and ask you to be warned, next time not even bother to ask for warned you again.

 

[Aurugermil]

Just go for his twitter, no guarantee that he will respond to you though since he didn't respond to me too when I asked the same question.

 

[Andykhang]

They not tied by anything including reality and existence, the end, like literly look at the creator page:
True Infinity (The Creator is boundless, freed from all restrictions, even life, death, and meaning)

and also https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/332880

I am the person who reported you and ask you to be warned, next time not even bother to ask for warned you again.

Don't want to anger anybody anyway. So I have to ask to confirm this again (saving me and you some trouble in the future): Does that mean, to you and the wiki, tier 0 doesn't "exist" in a conventional sense?

 

[Primaris_Brian]

They beyond the concept of existence and human understanding.

 

[Dekoshu]

They are beyond scientific explaination, and also, they can easily be taken out of context by anyone. How and why?

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Even tier 1 in that level such as the choushin: They are stated to be true deities, shown as enormously larger than all of existence combined, beyond physics, beyond logic, comprehension, scientific definition, and dimensional scale, the creators of an infinite number of higher-dimensional experiments and completely beyond all of existence.

see her very existence is impossible, yet she can appear in front of everyone.

 

[Dekoshu]

This means unlike other members, they are beyond even infinite-dimensional beings, and because of that, they are completely immune and inapplicable to use higher-dimensional powers on and other abilities that exploit those attributes.

Also, they know viritually to utterly everything, have little to no "ignorance" or unawareness. Why would they not know about Fantasy Nature?

 

[Primaris_Brian]

This is why Tier 1 fight is almost always(except for one tier 1-A vs High 1-A) become pointless.

 

[Andykhang]

^...Huh, what direction did you guy take on now?

 

[Dekoshu]

Here's the problem though, and we're also talking about this: Tier 0 beings, do not exist in a conventional sense. Fantasy Nature allows Reimu to float out of range and out of reality, meaning that merely trying to hit her is not enough and most foes are wasting their time trying to defeat her. What about other attacks? And how many No Limits Fallacy statements it brought in?

 

[Primaris_Brian]

They are just beyond the concept of existence and nonexistence, and honestly:


it just works

 

[Dekoshu]

This made you wonder why this image and the three exact words weren't brought in more frequently, Not Jim Sterling?

 

[Andykhang]

^Fact and Reality doesn't care about logic most, or even anytime.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

This made you wonder why this image and the three exact words weren't brought in more frequently, Not Jim Sterling?

Probably because not many people know about it.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

^Fact and Reality doesn't care about logic most, or even anytime.

And what your point? wanna to downgrade Tier 0 again?

 

[Andykhang]

No way if that anger you. This smell like religious belief. I'm just going to reach my own conclusion that they're Reality Warper for a reason.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Because you just try so hard to downplaying something that basically the Top hierarchy in this place and thus looking down on everything else, all for the sake of your wank.

 

[Dekoshu]

This isn't due to religious beliefs. Rather, it's a realistic and objective thing is that while Fantasy Nature is very effective, allowing Reimu to be in and out of existence, she is neither an infinite-dimensional nor beyond dimensional being.

 

[Andykhang]

^That's a weird middle ground I ever read on.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

This isn't due to religious beliefs. Rather, it's a realistic and objective thing is that while Fantasy Nature is very effective, allowing Reimu to be in and out of existence, she is neither an infinite-dimensional nor beyond dimensional being.

Yeah:

Note that all tier 1-A characters have qualitative superiority over dimensional structures and concepts. Also, mere capability to exist in a beyond dimensional domain does not qualify a character as a beyond dimensional being.

 

[Dekoshu]

What's so weird, Andykhang? She's not unconditionally invincible to anything. If she did, then literally no one in Reimu's reality or virtually anything else can kill her whenever they want, since they have no means of attacking her at all, and quadrillions and quadrillions of these beings can't even lure her back to existence, since if there was no time limit. then their patience is pointless.

 

[Andykhang]

Again, still have a potential to.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

And keep that potential for yourself and not messing around with entire Tier just to make you believe that potential.

 

[Dekoshu]

Where did I ever read that there's potential in her to do something like that? Especially when objectively, the other ladies Reimu fought neither happened to be inherently higher-dimensional beings nor have such power. If they did, then their form would have been what is perceived by others who aren't at their higher-dimensonal level.