About One-Shots

[The_Wright_Way]

Yes, I know this is controversial and I don't care. We need to settle this.

What we need is a definitive baseline for how much stronger a character needs to be in order to one-shot another character. I suggest 5x stronger. It makes reasonable sense (you name someone in real life who can survive getting hit by something 5x stronger) and is widely regarded among other users as an understandable baseline and even considered by some to be an official rule. Under our current rules, one can go "oh, he's 5x stronger, he one-shots" and then go to a different thread and go "oh, there's no agreed on baseline for one-shot. Just because he's 5x stronger doesn't mean he one-shots."

Also, many of our profiles use one-shots for scaling. Rose Quartz is High 6-B for one-shotting a baseline High 6-B. If we use 5x as our baseline, then this makes sense. But, if we have no baseline one could just as easily argue that the baseline is 10x then she should be 6-A instead. Note that she's not listed as "At least High 6-B, likely 6-A". Having no baseline can easily lead to characters with inconsistent ratings and nonsensical statistics. Say character A one-shots character B. Character B is far enough into 7-C that Character A gets brought up to 7-B, as the assumption used for that instance was a 6x gap. However, Character C one-shots Character D and does not get upgraded, as the gap was assumed at 5x. This is despite the fact that D and B are comparable, if not nearly equal, to each other in durability. See the issue?

Counter arguments

"Someone could easily make a thread where they put they're favorite character up against a haxless character they don't like who is 4x weaker and call it decisive." We judge on a case by case basis. For example, Saitama versus someone 4x stronger would be a stomp as Saitama likely has no hax or skill necessary to bridge such a gap. Batman vs someone 4x stronger is decisive as he is both decently varied (tasers, ice grenades, and smoke bombs) and incredibly skilled. This assuming the opponent as few or no hax of course.

"It would make a mess of scaling" Case by case basis. If a character is consistently shown to be the tier that they gain from a scaling chain, then they keep their tier. If a character is given a bunch of anti feats suggesting that they aren't, then it's an outlier. It's better to know definitively that someone is 4-A from a scaling chain then to go "oh, he's 4-B to 4-A ish" due to not having a baseline.

"Fiction is inconsistent in this regard" Fiction is inconsistent in a lot of areas, doesn't mean we make exceptions. DC and Marvel are beyond inconsistent and we can still agree on where they stand. If a character has consistently shown they can take hits from someone 5x stronger then we adjust durability correctly. We already do this for characters like Kharn and Frisk so this shouldn't be an exception.

At the very least debunk my arguments before you close this.

 

[Sera_EX]

I actually didn't see this and made a new thread on this exact topic. Posted my new argument and everything :/

 

[Sera_EX]

Anyway I removed it since you made yours first. I'll just repost it here:

"Now, here's my take on this after giving it some more thought. Instead of assigning an arbitrary number to define the gap, be it 2x, 3x, 5x, 10x, or what have you, why not just define it by the upper and lower bounds of the respective tier. For example, Large Town level vs. Large Town level+. That way people have a little more free reign to make matches and not be worried about if one character is 5x stronger than the other in potency specifically, and it makes it easier to simply read a profile and determine if it's a stomp before even making the match. Remember, no profile lists the exact energy value of one's attack potency, just the reasoning, and many calcs aren't even listed on their respective character's pages. So arguing about numbers hurts non-calc based members who aren't aware of the exact value, just the general attack potency.

Side note: I talked with Ven and he pointed out I was being very unlike myself in the previous thread; very passive aggressive; moderately unfair, and for that I do apologize, just to clear that up."

 

[The_Calaca]

Also, many of our profiles use one-shots for scaling. Rose Quartz is High 6-B for one-shotting a baseline High 6-B. If we use 5x as our baseline, then this makes sense. But, if we have no baseline one could just as easily argue that the baseline is 10x then she should be 6-A instead.

Sage Mode Naruto (7-A) one-shot a 600 megatons character and he's still 7-A.

The AP gap needed to one-shot varies from verse to verse and we can't say some character has 5x AP advantage if he one-shot other character in-verse. That's how we treat them here but that doesn't work the same way in-verse.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Sage Mode Naruto (7-A) one-shot a 600 megatons character and he's still 7-A.

The AP gap needed to one-shot varies from verse to verse and we can't say some character has 5x AP advantage if he one-shot other character in-verse. That's how we treat them here but that doesn't work the same way in-verse.

I addressed this point in the counter arguments section I believe. Read tge "fiction is inconsistent" bit.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

@Sera but what about people who are near the top of mountain level vs people near the bottom of Mountain Level+

Also Sapphire's profile lists the exact energy.

 

[Andytrenom]

Assuming a situation where one character has a comparable physiology to a human and is hit in the belly, head or chest i would suggest a 7.5 gap as it is the difference btw a 10-B and a 9-C.

Also this cannot be stressed enough that this value is only for reference and not a strict rule that can applied to every situation ever without question.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

We certainly shouldn't do a "character A one-shots character B means character A is 5x stronger." You don't even have to be 2x stronger to one-shot someone if you get a good hit in.

 

[Wokistan]

With humans you can one shot with even slightly lower stats though Andy, as stuff like necks aren't very durable.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Assuming a situation where one character has a comparable physiology to a human and is hit in the belly, head or chest i would suggest a 7.5 gap as it is the difference btw a 10-B and a 9-C.

Also this cannot be stressed enough that this value is only for reference and not a strict rule that can applied to every situation ever without question.

This certainly makes sense. Although, I'd like to hear other opinions first.

Of course, I'd say the same about my 5x suggestion.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

With humans you can one shot with even slightly lower stats though Andy, as stuff like necks aren't very durable.

That too. Pressure points are a thing as well.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

We certainly shouldn't do a "character A one-shots character B means character A is 5x stronger." You don't even have to be 2x stronger to one-shot someone if you get a good hit in.

I'd argue that has more to do with pressure points and the weak points of the human body. This is more "hit this guy at all and he dies and nothing he can do will hurt you without hax" thing.

 

[Sera_EX]

Well, as I said, I simply would prefer flexibility in versus matches. I mean no ill-will when I say we are the only community that has a problem with <insert X-number times> gap in attack potency, and it's not even that important unless you view from purely a statistical standpoint and a numbers game. Obviously stomps exist, but we should define these one shot stomps as something less mechanical than "7.5x the opponent's potency".

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Well, as I said, I simply would prefer flexibility in versus matches. I mean no ill-will when I say we are the only community that has a problem with <insert X-number times> gap in attack potency, and it's not even that important unless you view from purely a statistical standpoint and a numbers game. Obviously stomps exist, but we should define these one shot stomps as something less mechanical than "7.5x the opponent's potency".

This, too, is a valid point. What does everyone else have to say about this?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Yes, I think Sera make sense here.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I'm going to bed. I'll continue monitoring this tomorrow.

 

[Wokistan]

I think it's also important to consider the context of some of these feats we use for scaling, like whether they tank with no damage, or almost died, or what. Also how done characters have attacks blatantly stronger than others, like how in destiny stuff like shotguns and rocket launcher and snipers can one shot, and even in the primaries department hand cannons can 2-3 shot while an auto rifle or SMG can take like 10 headshots to kill. I generally agree with the idea that Sera is saying, but idk about the specifics of her statement yet.

 

[Sera_EX]

I'm saying we shouldn't use numbers in defining what's a stomp. No one else does that and there's a reason for that. That's why I'm all for something such as "Country level" vs. "Country level+". Rather than get into the very specifics of 6-Bs with only a difference of 4.344x in potency. This will encourage more debates on abilities, strategy, resourcefulness, intelligence, etc. rather than numbers.

I see it on many threads. "What's stopping so and so from AP stomping" when the difference is as low as 3x.

 

[Bobsican]

I suggest to just do a customized standart for every tier, basically each iter has their own AP gap to one-shot, BUT, the "number" of the gap itself depends on how much approximate AP would be needed to reduce the target to shreds (one calc for just an average human with X approximate durability and ne for a robot or android (both low and high-end). If they are just hitted in a weak point or anything in those lines, then we apply the case-by-case basis and see if it should be calculated to see if it could lead any interesting result by obliterating ONLY the area of effect, or if hitting there simply ignores durability.

We can also set a specific AP gap standart for each verse for even more consistency, unless they are too inconsistent, in which case, the main standart takes priority by default, especially in matches that involve characters from different verses unless they can actually be compared via a canon crossover in both sides.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Woki It is obvious we can't work out a gap without making an assumption on where the target was hit. What do you think the most reasonable assumptions will be?

I myself think the assumptions should be the target is hit in the face, torso, or belly since they just seem like the most probable places a combatant would take hits to. But I would appreciate a second or third opinion on this.

 

[Sera_EX]

It's a fact that body shots take more damage than face blows or torso shots because the face gets numb after a while. Ask any boxer ever and they will tell you the most important place to guard is the body. I don't think we can apply this to those with superhuman characteristics because while Goku beat Frieza and Broly with body shots, that doesn't mean the majority of fiction subscribes to this fact or is even aware of it.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Sera makes sense. If we are too strict with our regulations we make it almost impossible for our members to create any matchups wharsoever or even have some fun while taking part in versus threads.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Sera.

 

[Sera_EX]

@Runalongwithhim

That's not true. Ant has agreed with regulars before, heck I'm not staff (I'm ex-staff but you get the idea). Ant agrees with anyone knowledgeable enough in the topic at hand, not someone just because their name is a different color than blue.

 

[Antvasima]

Not true. I recurrently agree with others as well, as long as they seem to know what they are talking about. But we try to promote reliable longtime members with a good sense of judgement, which means that I tend to have had the time to get to know and trust the ones that have reached a staff position.

That said, Sera is not currently a staff member. She used to be and will likely be again though.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Sera Using a standard like Country level Vs country level+ to identify one shots would honestly be more problematic

What would you do if it's a cross tier matchup like a high end 7-B Vs a low end 7-A

Also 6-B could be anywhere from baseline to barely below 6-B+. So saying that something like 6-B Vs 6-B+ is a better option for a one shot standard than a numerical difference (which is what it sounds to me like you are saying) doesn't really make a lot of sense...no offense obv

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

you always say "i agree with _____" but its always a staff that you agree with. you never say that you agree with a regular member, you only agree with staffs and respect their opinion only. really bias.

He's agreed with me on a couple of occasions and I'm not a staff so that is blatantly false. Also don't derail the thread.

 

[Antvasima]

women are allowed to be staff members on this site? hmm weird. im not used to a women being a staff....

Stop trolling please.

Mind you, it is only light trolling, but nevertheless rude.

 

[Sera_EX]

Andy, I'm not talking about the lowest end vs. the highest end. The + sign can be added once you split the difference between the two. Also, High end 7-B vs low end 7-A is literally the same value (practically), why would that be an issue?


@Runalong

What? Promestein who is one of the best administrators is a woman. Aeyu, who was a discussion mod, was also a woman. There's been women as staff before and there will always be women as staff. What's makes you think the Administration has anything against women being staff? Especially when gender is ambiguous on the internet until proven otherwise? Also yeah this is derailing but I had to say it.

 

[Antvasima]

Promestein will probably become a bureaucrat when Azathoth has the time to handle a staff survey about it.

Anyway, women are just as competent as men. They just tend to be less commonly interested in this sort of entertainment community, so since there are less of them that become members, less of them also become staff.

We should stop derailing though.

 

[Sera_EX]

Also, in cases where the 6-B is slightly below the 6-B+, it wouldn't be considered a stomp at that point.

 

[VenomElite]

Forget about AP and you have several other stats you can compare between characters. Only care about AP and you ignore several other stats you can compare between characters.

 

[Sera_EX]

Forget about AP when the gap is too large and all other stats become meaningless.

 

[VenomElite]

Well yes, obviously.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Ven But we aren't forgetting about other stats. This thread is exclusively about finding a standard for a One shot (not a stomp mind you).

To explain it more properly, this thread isn't trying to say that "at x difference in AP between two characters, the match will be considered a stomp regardless of other factors" it's more "at x difference one hit will result in the weaker opponent being killed or knocked unconscious which may or may not be important in deciding whether the match is a stomp"

 

[Dbknowitall]

5x is not enough to one shot, depending on how you view one shot.

is it directly killing them in one shot or one shoting them to unconciouness?

, a average human can survive dozens of times their own strength reflected back at them as car crashes, falling of buildings, severe accidents etc.


the difference between 2-5x is not that big as people seem to hype it, a featherweight boxing champion is 2-3x weaker than a heavyweight champion, but he still has the chance to knock him out or win a fight,

the durability argument is old, any being is capable of resisting or surviving an attack many times stronger than their baseline durability or their own potency/DC just like a person can in real life.

Humans have survive 9C/9B attacks but a athelete human potency is 10A

 

[VenomElite]

How is a one-shot not a stomp if the one with the advantage can OHKO or OHK? That's unless immortality and Regenerationn is involved.

EDIT: Nvm, missed the whole reply

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps somebody should ask the other bureaucrats and administrators to comment here via their message walls?

 

[VenomElite]

Sounds like a good idea.

 

[Andytrenom]

Why only bureaucrats and admins tho? This seems like something that could use input from normal users as well...tho that would mean a highlight which I'm honestly kinda fearful of given the last thread.