About One-Shots

[Bobsican]

What about tiers in 4-B and above, however? The Low to High-End gap are almost trillions.

 

[Wokistan]

Bob it doesn't pierce the target or anything. Guns that pierce likethat in game aren't instakills. Shotguns just do a huge amount of damage.

Scaling from ingame values gets weird stuff like the Sleeper Simulant being a thousand times stronger than a few of the really weak pistols and stuff lol, Sleeper Simulant tier jump when?

 

[Wokistan]

4-B is different, but generally its pretty apparent or matches there are predicated on hax.

 

[Bobsican]

In game? I´m not talking about game mechanics, nearly all media around simply take bullets as a way to ignore durability.

Not instakills? Of course, but if it pierces a hearth or some other vital organ, it goes different, effectivelly ignoring durability to some extent.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I can't say i agree with that, since the differences can be ridiculous, if some baseline High 6-A gets 1 shotted by someone, i don't think it's safe to put him at Multi Continental + since that would make him over 6674 times stronger which would look more like vaporization rather than 1 shot.

Same for tiers like 9-B where the difference is 1394x. I think this is not a safe assumption especially since most tiers go from 6x to 50x which is still a lot .

 

[Wokistan]

Bob destiny is a game and bullets decidedly do not ignore durability by default. A few weapons do, but they are not the norm and shotguns are not among them.

 

[Wokistan]

It's also 5-C at bare minimum.

 

[Wokistan]

Also, the PVP is a thing that canonically happens. Because all Guardians have low godly regen, they kill each other and just revive as both training and a sport, and this is acknowledged in the lore.

 

[Bobsican]

In that case we can simply do it like we do with time stop to time slow, and just make it as that they ignore durability unless shown otherwise for each case in a case-by-case basis.

 

[Wokistan]

That analogy makes no sense and shotguns clearly do not ignore durability. They don't one shot absolutely everything, but are strong enough to one shot other Guardians in their range. I'm saying that that being a full 10x multiplier seems a little high.

 

[Bobsican]

That analogy makes no sense and shotguns clearly do not ignore durability. They don't one shot absolutely everything, but are strong enough to one shot other Guardians in their range. I'm saying that that being a full 10x multiplier seems a little high.

I´m not saying that we should apply the AP to durability gap here at all, but just to classify piercing attacks as ignoring durability, rather than just make it like that just because a 9-B with a sharp object is 9-B it can´t just stab a tier 7 in a vital part to one shot.

Simply put, they don´t one shot, BUT these have the potential to do so.

 

[Wokistan]

The thing is, almost everything in the game that doesn't one shot would fall under your definition of piercing damge. There's guns, swords, and a lot of hax in the verse. Check out some of the profiles we have for the bosses. Guns in destiny ignoring durability, besides the ones that explicitly do, doesn't make sense. Now, Guardian AP is clearly higher than their durability given how they can instakill each other with some guns, all swords, and abilities, but 10x seems like a highball there. Guardians shouldn't have some things be low 5-B in their 5-C key due to that.

 

[Bobsican]

Again, case by case basis, we can just make that verse as an exception to that, for example.

 

[Wokistan]

Destiny is far from the other verse where fighters don't take an absurd amount of hits before going down, though.

 

[Bobsican]

You mean about what to do when making Destiny to other verses matches? Then they simply don´t ignore durability as per verse equalization.

 

[Wokistan]

No that is not at all what I mean. Assuming a 10x gap is quite the tall order, due to just how often battles can end in just a hit or two. For instance, that can happen in every single verse on my profile between opponents who are comparable to one another.

 

[Bobsican]

You mean about the AP to Durability gap needed to one shot then? If so, well, I agree with what Sera said above.

 

[Bobsican]

Should I just move the piercing damage to ignore durability thing to another thread?

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Should I just move the piercing damage to ignore durability thing to another thread?

Probably. It sounds like a much different can of worms than this is.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Just pointing out that Sera's suggestion is going to affect a lot of scaling chains. There are 4-Bs who one-shot people who one-shot people who one-shot baseline 4-B. If this goes through then that's going to be a serious issue.

 

[Bobsican]

Moved here.

 

[Sera_EX]

No, because this does not apply to our systematic standards for indexing characters with content revisions.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

No, because this does not apply to our systematic standards for indexing characters with content revisions.

Well why not? Wouldn't it make more sense for the same rule to be applied to both?

 

[Sera_EX]

Of course not. Vs battles are just for fun and don't impact the site as a whole.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Of course not. Vs battles are just for fun and don't impact the site as a whole.

Yeah, but while cataloging may be the main point, the debating is still pretty crucial. It's what a lot of use come here for and it really doesn't make sense to apply one standard to one and not the other with that in mind. Heck, it's in the name even.

And I'd argue it does impact the site as a whole. Ignoring the 'Notable Victories' thing, there are situations where vs threads do cause changes to profiles. Here's an example.

User A: Character A beats Character B via [Hax]

User B: Character A doesn't have [Hax]

User A: They don't? Then they should.

(Cue revision thread)

Also, this only addresses half the point of the thread. A baseline should still be established for the sake of scaling.

 

[Andytrenom]

I do understand Sera not wanting a more non-serious aspect of this site to be handled on a purely scientific basis (how much did i butcher this sentence up?) but that being said there just isn't much basis in deciding one shots based on only tier differences.

Let's make a distinction btw "tier" and "output" here. Output being the actual energy generated by a character and tier being how we classify them in an easy to understand way. The output associated with a tier afaik is determined by a standard object corresponding to the tier needing a certain amount of energy to destroy in a specific fashion. In a context outside of making output of a character easy to understand, should they really have much significance? (Actually forget anything outside of that context, just in the context of matchups is relevant here)

Now if you are gonna bring up the point of some tier differences being obvious stomps, like 5-C vs 5-B it isn't the tiers in and of themselves causing the stomp, they just tell you that the difference in output btw the two characters has no possible way of being close to each other which is what actually causes the stomp.

In short, difference in output is a better way of gauging a oneshot value than a difference in tier.

 

[Antvasima]

Sera is correct in that the versus discussions are supposed to be non-serious fun that do not impact our site's main purpose.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Wright Yeah one-shot values for scaling should be a discussion reserved for another thread.

Also it has long since been known that our name is inaccurate with our purpose.

 

[Antvasima]

None of the current staff members chose the name of the wiki, no, and "The Character Statistics wiki" doesn't sound very good anyway.

 

[Bobsican]

Statistics Station maybe sounds better, but I´m neutral on that anyways.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, this is our brand name now. If we changed it we would not get nearly as many visitors.

 

[Andytrenom]

Please avoid derailment...

 

[Dark649]

I think the gap of a oneshot would be conditioned by:

- How much effort was put on the attack [ranging from a casual attack, an attack with moderate effort or a full powered attack].

- How much hits were dealt [ranging from one attack to a multi-hit move].

- How much damage it dealt to the opponent [ranging from just being K.O'ed, knocked down with injuries, making a hole in the body, being blown to being disintegrated/incinerated].

- Where the attack connected [to regular part of the body, a less durable part to a part being described as a very weak spot or the foe had his dura lowered on a certain spot, which was mainly targeted].

- The state of the opponent [being at full power, being at regular stamina, being distracted, which lowered or reduced by being casual his dura when was hit, being weakened with halved stamina or several injuries to being extremely tired/heavily injured].

 

[Andytrenom]

If the suggestion is to make the upper half of a tier one shot the lower half, how do you identify one shots if the fight was between a high end of one tier and a low end of the succeeding one?

Also someone in the lower half of a tier can in fact be close to a character in the upper half and vice versa so using it as a basis for identifying oneshots is unreliable.

 

[Dark649]

I do not think giving the full upper tier + to a char. just because he oneshotted another of the said tier would be fine, unless if the char. is quite close to the higher end of said tier or how much of a stomp it was as i explained in my previous comment. In DBZ stomps are not threatened as big gaps as Vegeta effortlessly two-shotted Cui, the destroyed Dodoria and power level wise their difference is over x1,33, then x1,2.

 

[Sera_EX]

We don't need to keep dragging on the conversation with my suggestion. It was just a suggestion, and I do admit, not the best one I ever had. My primary point remains that it can't be some arbitrarily defined number, no matter what it is. I'll go into why in a separate post in a minute. We have a community-wide issue with treating vs matches like content revisions in the first place.

Yes, vs matches can lead to revelations about characters that lead to content revisions but they still do not reflect the base nature of the site to accurately index characters to the best of our ability, using basic science and dimensional tiering. Vs battles which at the end of the day are "who wins" discussions are a reflection of the system used to do so, not the mechanics behind it. It's like how political debates are a reflection of any democratic system and not the U.S. constitution itself. But this means no political debate can change or go against the U.S constitution.

Translation: Versus matches are a reflection of versus debating as a whole, not the VSBW system (note that I did not say Tier System, so please don't make it seem like I'm saying ignore the foundation of our site. I'm not. Because this actually means no versus debate ever can change or go against the Tier System.)

 

[Dark649]

I agree, to me conversations are fine as long they don't turn into a storm.

 

[Andytrenom]

You know, as confident as I am about a 7.5x gap in the lower tiers, things would admittedly become problematic in the higher tiers like 4-B or 4-A

These tiers are gigantic and without a gigantic enough one shot gap to compensate, finding matchups btw two characters of this tier would kinda be a pain.

It also doesn't help that unlike tier 2 matchups and above people do often make significantly AP oriented matchups between 4-Bs.

 

[Sera_EX]

Exactly. That's why any number we assign is arbitrary, unless someone sat down and did the math to determine what difference would work across all tiers (up to 3-A). That is not really possible since some tiers are larger than others. 3-B is the best example.

Our galaxy cluster alone is 100 billion galaxies. And that's just one cluster.

 

[Antvasima]

Andytrenom makes a valid point, as does Sera.

So what do you suggest as a solution Sera?