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Was they able to see MUI vs Jiren? It doesn't really make sense for Zeno to be slower than Whis let alone a GOD.
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About Infinite Zamasu and Zeno | AP and Speed
- Thread starter ProudLearner
- Start date
Gilad_Hyperstar
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They saw it through the super slowed down god pad, not with their naked eyes.
ProudLearner
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This is only about Ki attacks speed not what you think...
ProudLearner
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Why though ? Zeno's technique destroyed multiple spacetimes within a finite real time. A lot of Tier 2 characters get there by scaling as opposed to actual spacetime destruction feats so it makes sense for them to not have immeasurable speed
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Affecting higher-dimensional structures, in this case space-time continua, isn't Immeasurable by default. If the space-time dimensions are finite then one can cover them with finite time if they have the provided range.
Which is why I said "half of Tier 2" above. I'm well aware of characters that get it through scaling, doesn't mean that those that do destroy universes get it anyway.
Which is why I said "half of Tier 2" above. I'm well aware of characters that get it through scaling, doesn't mean that those that do destroy universes get it anyway.
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The relevant question then is : Are DBS space-time dimensions finite ?
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Hey wait a second ... isn't destroying infinite 4-D structures a requirement for Low 2-C ?? Zeno's omnidirectional blast should be Infinite-Immeasurable speed by definition
Gilad_Hyperstar
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No. Just destroying a universal sized space time continuum is enough. All universes are inherently Low 2-C structures provided that they're universal in size or larger
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Universal as in the observable universe ?
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Yes. The size of our observable universe was agreed to be the baseline for universal size
Vietthai96
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Destruction the size of Observable Universe is enough for 3-A, if you could destroy an hypothetical infinite Universe mean you High 3-A, Low 2-C mean you destroy both the universe and it space-time continuum, reaching just 1 space-time continuum is already 4D
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So shouldn't a 4D destruction feat be immeasurable speed ?
Gilad_Hyperstar
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No. Because that's just range. Higher dimensions doesn't grant you immeasurable speed by default
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Instantly affecting a huge range is also speed no ?
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I mean I can see why one would think it's immeasurable speed. First off to clarify time is infinite due to the uncountably infinite snapshots thing. But that doesn't mean a timeline is infinitely long.
Now the thing is that if Zen'o can use an AoE ki blast that targets all of time, then why wouldn't he be able to use a ki blast that doesn't destroy all of time but just travels through it. Which could potentially lead to immeasurable attack speed. Meanwhile Zamasu's spread would maybe allow his body to keep pace with someone with immeasurable speed when both are traveling through time.
So while these things don't really count by our current standards (and they don't really count anywhere else either), there's no set rule or explanation on why it doesn't count except for "it's just range".
Now the thing is that if Zen'o can use an AoE ki blast that targets all of time, then why wouldn't he be able to use a ki blast that doesn't destroy all of time but just travels through it. Which could potentially lead to immeasurable attack speed. Meanwhile Zamasu's spread would maybe allow his body to keep pace with someone with immeasurable speed when both are traveling through time.
So while these things don't really count by our current standards (and they don't really count anywhere else either), there's no set rule or explanation on why it doesn't count except for "it's just range".
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Vietthai96
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The problem is IF just starting to effect the past though, if we have complete Infinite Zamasu, it would be easier to scale and measure
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At this point I think there should be a note on the speed page detailing out when Attacks or Haxes can scale to a characters base movement. This is the 4th time this week I seen this kind of argument pop up.
Not sure what it would be phrased as/worded as
Or
maybe a thread to end all threads. A thread that is meant to discuss immeasurable speed detailing it out, debunking some wild notions of it, give many and I do mean many examples of it, and to answer questions
Not sure what it would be phrased as/worded as
Or
maybe a thread to end all threads. A thread that is meant to discuss immeasurable speed detailing it out, debunking some wild notions of it, give many and I do mean many examples of it, and to answer questions
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Infinite Zamasu only fused with Universe 7 and nuking a multiverse is just AP, not a speed feat.
Nullflowerblush
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There's also the fact that the Present and the Future in Dragon Ball aren't actually "the present" and "the future", but "Parallel World A and Parallel World B" as every "timeline" is just a parallel world branched off another parallel world. So even if Zamasu did cross over from Trunks' timeline to the mainline timeline through sheer speed, it wouldn't be travelling through time, just travelling through connected alternate dimensions.
ProudLearner
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We have stop talking about AP. We are focusing on Speed.
Also, Zeno's explosive wave like Ki blast reach the present time which is immeasurable speed.
Why is Future Trunks using a Time-Machine then? By your logic, Bulma could build a spaceship to got to the otherworld because they are connected to the Universe.
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How are you so sure Zeno uses Ki at all? And why would "Erase" be a Ki based move?
Because you can travel Space with Space ship....not Time. Dimensions/Timelines of DB are connected by Time not by Space.
ProudLearner
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Again, I am talking about this not the range of destroying multiple universes. That attack reach the present which is immeasurable speed via ki attack.
1. This here is an Explosive wave. Not his usual squish hand erase. Zeno page says it.
2. If they are connected then why is Future Trunks using a Time Machine to got to the present. By that logic, Infinite Zamasu would never become 2-C.
Both Universe 7 and the OtherWorld are connected as Time and Space which is a Low-2C structure.
If present and future are connected then why is Infinite Zamasu (would eventually become 2-C) is a thing?
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Anyway, this has nothing to do with AP since this thread answered my question about it. Speed is the focus.
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1. You can't call that a "Ki based" move even if it were an "Explosive wave" attack. There are more than 1 Power Systems in DB. Even then it actually looks like everything falling upon some singularity so no, its not an "Explosive Wave".
2. They are connected by Time not space and 3D objects or Mechanism can't navigate on Time like they do on Space. Otherwise we would be able to Run in Future or Past like running back to home from school.
Present and Future being connected only speaks for the possibilities of Zamasu devouring Past Dimensions but since he was erased before devouring the past, he becoming 2-C is a thing. Since he never got the chance to devour the past but was only able to reach/effect it.
This is also why I wanted to hear the counters of IZ not having Immeasurable speed via spread. Devour or not, his presence was visible and were having effects in the Past so he should have that kind of speed.
Also You can see them using the squish everytime in the series. Show me one time when they didn't squish while destroying a Macroverse. Also I don't see anything in the page saying that tho.
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Treating time as a mere direction you can move in is immeasurable speed.
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Not what I meant but I probably should've phrased it better. The point that I'm trying to make is that this is just 4-D range. Unless of course you want to treat every Tier 2 feat as an adjacent Immeasurable speed feat.
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You will notice that among the Tier 2 characters; most of who have the ability to launch attacks that can destroy entire Timelines, very very few of them have Immeasurable Speed. This is a Range feat, nothing more.
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A small piece of Zamasu leaked into the present. Zeno destroyed his body (Future Universe 7) so the part in the present, no longer having that body to be attached to would disappear too. There’s no immeasurable speed feat here.
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what about the "reaching and effecting Past" part? isn't that Immeasurable Speed? Also why would being a small piece or Big piece matter for a Formless Entity? It feels completely irrelevant to me. What matters is whether or not he was present in the main continuity, which he was.
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Stefano4444
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At least Low 2-C for Infinite Zamasu does seen to make sense (at least to me), he was powerful enough to not only merge with the future timeline (or it was just future 7th universe?) but also to affect the present timeline too.
And the reason why you can't be 2-C by just scaling above Low 2-C its because of the unquantificable (but not infinite) distance, so Infinite Zamasu be enough power to breach such distance means that he cannot be treated as merely baseline.
And the reason why you can't be 2-C by just scaling above Low 2-C its because of the unquantificable (but not infinite) distance, so Infinite Zamasu be enough power to breach such distance means that he cannot be treated as merely baseline.
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Stefano4444
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He is already treated as Nigh-Omnipresent in his profile.
