A Small Discussion on Maou Gakuin Resistances

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This will be short (I hope) and probably the last MG thread I'll need to make.

Maou Gakuin characters (currently just Anos) are given resistance to soul manipulation and mind manipulation for the following reason:

"An excellent magician can keep their memories in their source, which is the fundamental concept of existence that exists deeper than the body, soul and mind, and even if the physical body perishes, as long as the source is intact, they can be revived. In other words, they can act, "think", and utilise powers with only their source (concept), and therefore have unconventional resistance to conventional powers that affect the soul or mind[98][99]"

To start, keeping one's memories in their source is both slightly exaggerated, and not any particular resistance. It isn't any and all memories that are stored within the source; Rather, it is stated to be the memories of their life, which is smaller in scope than "everything a person has ever remembered". While this may in theory provide resistance to mind manipulation, it would only extend to a small fraction of one's memories, which are in and of themselves small fractions of a person's overall "mind".

The source existing deeper than the mind and soul is interesting, and supports its conceptual nature. However, the claim that MG characters can "think" with their source, or otherwise have it act as a replacement for their mind and soul, is unsubstantiated. While it has been shown elsewhere that such characters can still act or cast magic using their source, this does not support any sort of resistance to mind or soul manipulation, and simply proves they can act as a concept (which is already covered by limited type 1 AE). There isn't much I can add, this is a simple case of an ability being extrapolated from information that simply isn't there.

Agree: @Deagonx, @Theglassman12

Disagree: @Dereck03

Neutral:

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I think you are more obsessed with Maou than with Touhou

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I think you are more obsessed with Maou than with Touhou

nah

 

[KingNanaya]

nah

what is bro cooking????

 

[Phsccarvalho]

nah

 

[KingNanaya]

anyways, I think mind manipulation should probably change to memory manipulation, instead of being removed. neutral on soul manipulation res though.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

what is bro cooking????

And I'm only 10% done, maybe less.

anyways, I think mind manipulation should probably change to memory manipulation, instead of being removed. neutral on soul manipulation res though.

I think that's probably fine, but it should be a limited resistance as it only pertains to the memories of their life and nothing else.

 

[Dog3352]

If I'm not mistaken, the characters still don't have feats of thinking only with their source, or even statements, so I agree.

 

[KingNanaya]

I think that's probably fine, but it should be a limited resistance as it only pertains to the memories of their life and nothing else.

I can agree with that, yeah

 

[Aseka]

Agree fra

 

[Glis]

Only characters who arent really adept at using source magic are unable to keep all their memories intact, generally they would lose part of their memories or power once they reincarnate, in some cases its completely lost. Anos is exempted from this rule and is capable of transferring all his power and memories to his reincarnated body.

"Source magic, the highest grade of which included spells like Syrica, was that which affected one’s source. Anos would be capable of transferring all his power and memories to his reincarnated body, but those who struggled using source magic would reincarnate imperfectly. They would lack power and memory" - Volume 2 prologue

 

[Glis]

If I'm not mistaken, the characters still don't have feats of thinking only with their source, or even statements, so I agree.

There is. In the fight between Anos and Wenzel the god of bandages Anos' body, senses, and mind were all restricted so he took out his source for a moment and struck him, he even conversed with the god while being in such state. But thats on volume 9. There isnt any feats like that in the current translated content.

 

[Dog3352]

There is. In the fight between Anos and Wenzel the god of bandages Anos' body, senses, and mind were all restricted so he took out his source for a moment and struck him, he even conversed with the god while being in such state. But thats on volume 9. There isnt any feats like that in the current translated content.

That's the point, we have to expect a deed or statement in the LN translation.

 

[First_Witch]

nah

This is normally how people burnout. Youre casually causing a forest fire

 

[Dog3352]

Doesn't the fact that the source exists deeper than the soul not give soul resistance (or as listed in the profile, unconventional resistance)?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Doesn't the fact that the source exists deeper than the soul not give soul resistance (or as listed in the profile, plus unconventional resistance)?

No?

Just because these characters have a concept that exists deeper than the souls doesn't mean the soul itself is immune to harm.

This is normally how people burnout. Youre casually causing a forest fire

If it was any other series I'd have burned out, but you underestimate how far I'm willing to go for 2hu.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

nah

62 pages only to justify someone having really good dodging skills. Lol

Also your crusade against Mao won't ever end it seems

 

[Dog3352]

No?

Just because these characters have a concept that exists deeper than the souls doesn't mean the soul itself is immune to harm.

The soul resides within the source, so much so that every time it is affected, it is only affected when the characters affect the source in the same way, Misha and Sasha had the same separate source, and because of that, had a separate soul.
Just not to be confused, the soul does not exist further or as deeply as the source, it just resides in it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The soul resides within the source, so much so that every time it is affected, it is only affected when the characters affect the source in the same way, Misha and Sasha had the same separate source, and because of that, had a separate soul.
Just not to be confused, the soul does not exist further or as deeply as the source, it just resides in it.

While I would like to see scans of this, I'm not sure if the soul being within the source even makes sense since the source supposedly exists deeper than it. You can't put something in a box and then say the box exists separately/independently of what's inside it.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

If it was any other series I'd have burned out, but you underestimate how far I'm willing to go for 2hu.

I don't know if I think you're crazy or hardworking. These pages scare me.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

There is. In the fight between Anos and Wenzel the god of bandages Anos' body, senses, and mind were all restricted so he took out his source for a moment and struck him, he even conversed with the god while being in such state. But thats on volume 9. There isnt any feats like that in the current translated content.

Then don't use it.

The entire reason why we deleted Anos' profile was because of how much untranslated content was used as evidence.

I don't know if I think you're crazy or hardworking. These pages scare me.

Definitely crazy.

 

[Testarossa002]

probably the last MG thread I'll need to make.

Yeah right

 

[Dog3352]

While I would like to see scans of this, I'm not sure if the soul being within the source even makes sense since the source supposedly exists deeper than it. You can't put something in a box and then say the box exists separately/independently of what's inside it.

You don't have to follow logic, we're talking about fiction, besides, something less fundamental being encompassed by something more fundamental and normal.
And I don't have scans, nor have I read the LN yet.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You don't have to follow logic, we're talking about fiction, besides but, something encompassed is less fundamental to exist within something more fundamental and normal.
And I don't have scans, nor have I read the LN yet.

I don't think we should assume illogical conclusions by default. "To put it simply, it's the soul, the psyche, but the source exists even deeper in the abyss, and it's what makes us who we are" pretty clearly shows that the source has to exist separately from the soul, otherwise like half the basis for HGR (the source existing deeper than the mind and soul) is wrong.

 

[Dog3352]

I don't think we should assume illogical conclusions by default. "To put it simply, it's the soul, the psyche, but the source exists even deeper in the abyss, and it's what makes us who we are" pretty clearly shows that the source has to exist separately from the soul, otherwise like half the basis for HGR (the source existing deeper than the mind and soul) is wrong.

Existing deeper is about fundamentalism, not existing outside or inside.
And I think the unconventional resistance is about the fact that it's pointless for you to destroy the soul if you still have the source.

 

[Deagonx]

I would support a change to "limited" resistance, specifically noting that they may have some resistance to memory manipulation and cannot be killed through soul manipulation, but I dont see any other application for the information we have that would equate to a broader resistance.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well my issue with soul resistance is that no examples have been provided on how having a source protects from soul- based attacks.

 

[Tatsumi504]

This is something that's been accepted since Null was active.

Characters with this listed are those who can operate as a source. The source itself is capable of acting as a source alone.

In the first place, thoughts and feelings are grounded in the source

"Wh-What is this?! Why is Aske...? Where did you gather all that magic
from?!”
“Thoughts and feelings are grounded in the source. I am Eleonore, the magic
that creates sources.”
“You can’t fool me! No sources are being created anywhere! You and the
ghouls are the only ones here!”
“Making sources here would spell disaster. That’s why I’m only creating the
emotions inside them.”
Zaburo was speechless. His Eyes were wide as he stared into her abyss. “That
can’t be... Creating only the emotions of a source shouldn’t be possible!”

~Light Novel Volume 4, Act 1 Chapter 12​

Root mother Eleonore, the magic that creates sources. To avoid creating complete individuals, she creates only pseudo sources. Sources that only have a heart/mind, sources devoid of life with no conciousness

“I’m sure I destroyed him,” he murmured.
“The
Death Strike Sword was forged after your reincarnation. It should be immune to
Agronemt.”
“What you destroyed was the fake I switched in.”
“A fake? No, I’m sure that was Melheis’s source. I saw it with my own
Eyes,” Zeke muttered, still unable to comprehend the situation.
“You see, I recently learned a new spell. You may even be familiar with it—
you witnessed it yourself over Limnet earlier.”
He gasped in realization.
“Eleonore? No, there’s no way you’d use a new life
as a sacrifice!”
“Of course I wouldn’t go that far. However, I did use the spell to create a
fake source with no consciousness. Although it looked the same, the source was
devoid of life.”
“That can’t be. My Eyes wouldn’t fall for a fake source! The battle wasn’t
even that long ago—you wouldn’t have had any time to research Eleonore’s
uses!”

~Light Novel Volume 4 Act 1, Chapter 15​

and she can create a pseudo source soul alone–a source that acts as a soul.

These characters can exist as only a source. The source exists deeper and regardless of the mind and soul. Life, heart and conciousness is grounded in the source. The source is able to perform the function of the mind and soul and they resist attacks that can destroy the source

 

[Deagonx]

Well my issue with soul resistance is that no examples have been provided on how having a source protects from soul- based attacks.

The only thing that comes to mind is that a soul-killing attack wouldn't kill someone with a source. Other than that I agree.

 

[Tatsumi504]

I would support a change to "limited" resistance, specifically noting that they may have some resistance to memory manipulation and cannot be killed through soul manipulation, but I dont see any other application for the information we have that would equate to a broader resistance.

This is something that's been accepted since Null was active.

Characters with this listed are those who can operate as a source. The source itself is capable of acting as a source alone.

In the first place, thoughts and feelings are grounded in the source

Root mother Eleonore, the magic that creates sources. To avoid creating complete individuals, she creates only pseudo sources. Sources that only have a heart/mind, sources devoid of life with no conciousness and she can create a pseudo source soul alone–a source that acts as a soul.

These characters can exist as only a source. The source exists deeper and regardless of the mind and soul. Life, heart and conciousness is grounded in the source. The source is able to perform the function of the mind and soul and they resist attacks that can destroy the source

The source is a concept, it is a core, it is life, it is the mind, it is the soul. Pseudo (incomplete) sources based on the mind, soul can be created. The source performs the function of these things, can act entirely as and independent of these things. Characters resist attacks that can destroy the source. I don't know what else you're looking for.

 

[Deagonx]

The source is a concept, it is a core, it is life, it is the mind, it is the soul. Pseudo (incomplete) sources based on the mind, soul can be created. The source performs the function of these things, can act entirely as and independent of these things. Characters resist attacks that can destroy the source. I don't know what else you're looking for.

The scans you posted indicate the opposite of what you're saying. It appears from the evidence that the Source acts as a container for these things, not that it serves the function of it.

However, I did use the spell to create a fake source with no consciousness. Although it looked the same, the source was devoid of life.”
“That can’t be. My Eyes wouldn’t fall for a fake source!

 

[Dog3352]

The scans you posted indicate the opposite of what you're saying. It appears from the evidence that the Source acts as a container for these things, not that it serves the function of it.

She "is" a "container", but she doesn't need them to perform her function, which is exactly the same as what she encompasses, but on a more fundamental level.

 

[Deagonx]

She "is" a "container", but she doesn't need them to perform her function, which is exactly the same as what she encompasses, but on a more fundamental level.

I don't follow. Who is "she?" I am discussing sources throughout the verse. Also, what scans are you basing that on?

 

[Tatsumi504]

The scans you posted indicate the opposite of what you're saying. It appears from the evidence that the Source acts as a container for these things, not that it serves the function of it.

The opposite? The source doesn't contain these things. The definition of the source describes it as being separate from the mind, soul, spirit and it is deeper (more fundamental) than these things.
My scans don't contradict. It's showing how the source can also perform the function of these things. The reason this unconventional resistance was accepted is because Anos was incapacitated by the god of bondage. His body, magic, 5 senses and even his mind was incapacitated.
He was able to act (fight), think, perceive, talk as only a source. The fact his mind was incapacitated rules out the mind being in the source.

I'll say it again. The source is separate from the mind, soul, spirit and at the same time it performs the functions of these things.

Eleonore is magic that creates sources and sources alone. She can create thoughts as a pseudo source, create souls as a pseudo source. She doesn't create the mind or soul, she creates sources

 

[Deagonx]

It's showing how the source can also perform the function of these things

By containing them. At least, thats what your scans say. Without them, it appears that the Source is devoid of life.

 

[Dog3352]

I don't follow. Who is "she?" I am discussing sources throughout the verse. Also, what scans are you basing that on?

Wrong translation anyway.
As already in the OP itself, the sources exist deeper than soul, psyche and body.
In the scan itself posted by Tatsumi, Anos creates a source identical to the normal source, but without mind (consciousness) or life, what the source encompasses is nothing more than something much less fundamental than it, so Zeke was unable to realizing that the source was false even though he had no soul or mind.

 

[Deagonx]

In the scan itself posted by Tatsumi, Anos creates a source identical to the normal source, but without mind (consciousness) or soul (life), what the source encompasses is nothing more than something much less fundamental than it, so Zeke was unable to realizing that the source was false even though he had no soul or mind.

I'm aware, thats my point. The Source without a mind/soul is said to be devoid of life, whereas normal Sources have them.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Unless you all have a brilliant thesis on how emotions can be produced with no mind or how life can exist without a soul.

By containing them. At least, thats what your scans say. Without them, it appears that the Source is devoid of life.

You are forgetting the definition of the source. It doesn't contain them, it is separate from them. Anos had his mind incapacitated and was thinking with his source.
How do you think without a mind? It's made clear his mind isn't working but the source is thinking. Answer= there are two minds. The conventional mind and the source

 

[Deagonx]

You are forgetting the definition of the source. It doesn't contain them, it is separate from them.

Okay, but the scans you posted are contradicting that. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The scans don't support the Source being capable of the function of a mind and soul by itself. The Source appears to exist independently of them, but without them it is devoid of life/non-functional. So whatever the Source is, it is not capable of replacing them.

Anos had his mind incapacitated and was thinking with his source.

What scan is this from?

 

[Dog3352]

I'm aware, thats my point. The Source without a mind/soul is said to be devoid of life, whereas normal Sources have them.

I think I'm not understanding your point, fonts with or without life are not affected by attacks that affect the soul, as it doesn't need it.
You probably got confused because I said life = soul, but that's not it, I'm sorry I misdescribed it.