A Small Discussion on Maou Gakuin Resistances

[PrinceofPein]

I was not the one who told you that and even then, they're not wrong about the source containing a mind & soul

Oh. My. God. How is telling someone to think rude in anyway? Did you consider your teachers rude If they told you to think about something? Have you never had these directed at you before; "use your medula" "are you incapable of thinking for yourself", "make better use of your brain"? What word would you prefer I use? Ponder? Theorise?
This is the way I talk. All the jargon I end up typing here doesn't even amount to 1% of the vocabulary I use on a daily basis.
Shall I switch to the broken English I actually use in close circles and show you what true rudeness looks?

How about you provide proof of a reason to specifically target only one-third of something when you can effect the entire thing? Affecting a conceptual Mind or Soul actually requires NPI for concepts or CM itself or is someone trying to tell me normal soul manipulation would affect a soul in a verse like DMC?

How does that relate to the mind inside the source? Affecting normal minds yeah– fodder don't have much of a chance against a God that governs thoughts or Anos Voldigoad level mind manipulation– and I also recall saying that there's recorded instances of resistance to normal mind manipulation.

Your analogy based on Canada and the U.S for one? If you're making your evaluations based on what was provided then at least go through all that was provided before jumping to conclusions. I even linked a comment regarding all the relevant things.

So now your claim is that they have two minds and two souls. Proof of that please.

The burden of proof is on you, how can you ask me to prove a negative.

If you do not have proofs and just mental gymnastics, please stop stressing it, this is going roundabout

 

[Dog3352]

So now your claim is that they have two minds and two souls. Proof of that please.

The burden of proof is on you, how can you ask me to prove a negative.

If you do not have proofs and just mental gymnastics, please stop stressing it, this is going roundabout

Literally the source of the character feeling a fear that he himself didn't feel...
Or we can mention the fact that Anos cast a spell that needs to be activated only with its source...
Or Eleonore herself saying that she is just creating the feelings and thoughs of a source...
Or even the sources remembering something that neither the owner of the fountain remembers...
Or maybe Anos saying he was creating just the consciousness of a source...

 

[PrinceofPein]

Literally the source of the character feeling a fear that he himself didn't feel...
Or we can mention the fact that Anos cast a spell that needs to be activated only with its source...
Or Eleonore herself saying that she is just creating the FEELINGS and THOUGHTS of a SOURCE...
Or even the SOURCES remembering something that NEITHER THE OWNER OF THE FOUNTAIN REMEMBERS...
Or maybe Anos saying he was creating JUST THE CONSCIOUSNESS of a SOURCE...

I do not think you understand my point
Since the main mind is still not connected to the source or not the one the source has according to tatsumi (even though he has not sent the proof of it). Then mind hax without needing to reach for the source will still work on the character

 

[Tatsumi504]

So now your claim is that they have two minds and two souls. Proof of that please.

The burden of proof is on you, how can you ask me to prove a negative.

If you do not have proofs and just mental gymnastics, please stop stressing it, this is going roundabout

You can't be serious. These are the same people Deagonx is claiming have addressed my evidence? I think I'm done. This isn't worth my time. Thank you for confirming you didn't even read any of the scans here.

This CRT is funny, and kind.

Tatsumi sending multiple proofs of sources having the person's conscience, feelings, that the source has a consciousness different from the conventional mind, and other things

People who agree with the CRT:

Thank you so much. At least I know I'm not alone in this.

An unrelated party has confirmed I've sent evidence multiple times. That's all I need.

 

[Deceived3596]

Hol up, wait a minute.

Is it being argued that the Source contains a different soul/mind compared to a magician's normal soul/mind?, like there's the normal soul and mind a magician has that doesn't exist inside their Source, but there's also conceptual replications of those structures that do exist inside one's Source?.

If so, and if this is true, then i'm fine with the resistance being turned into a limited rating as it would only be applicable to those conceptual replications, not the original structures.

 

[Tatsumi504]

For all the mentally weak people in this thread, here is a comment you can consider as rude... Take the Link in this comment, click on it, inscribe it's contents directly on your hippocampus, print out the content, chew it, swallow it then digest it and pass out the waste

https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-small-discussion-on-maou-gakuin-resistances.154042/post-5774841

 

[Deagonx]

For all the mentally weak people in this thread,

Dude what is your issue? Stop making rude comments

 

[Dog3352]

Hol up, wait a minute.

Is it being argued that the Source contains a different soul/mind compared to a magician's normal soul/mind?, like there's the normal soul and mind a magician has that doesn't exist inside their Source, but there's also conceptual replications of those structures that do exist inside one's Source?.

If so, and if this is true, then i'm fine with the resistance being turned into a limited rating as it would only be applicable to those conceptual replications, not the original structures.

Maybe I could be wrong, but as far as I remember, unconventional resistance and to the source, characters with a certain degree of source manipulation wouldn't give a shit about characters using soul/mind manipulation on their conventional minds/souls.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Hol up, wait a minute.

Is it being argued that the Source contains a different soul/mind compared to a magician's normal soul/mind?, like there's the normal soul and mind a magician has that doesn't exist inside their source, but there's also conceptual replications of those structures that do exist inside one's source?.

If so, and if this is true, then i'm fine with the resistance being turned into a limited rating as it would only be applicable to those conceptual replications, not the original structures.

And I am fine with that as the conventional mind and soul cannot override the control of the source. Affecting the soul of someone who has gained awareness as a source will not do anything to them. They will not die as they don't deepens on the soul for Life. What matters is the source.

As for the mind, they are still perfectly capable of operating, thinking as a source alone so conventional mind manipulation will not stop them

 

[PrinceofPein]

Hol up, wait a minute.

Is it being argued that the Source contains a different soul/mind compared to a magician's normal soul/mind?, like there's the normal soul and mind a magician has that doesn't exist inside their Source, but there's also conceptual replications of those structures that do exist inside one's Source?.

If so, and if this is true, then i'm fine with the resistance being turned into a limited rating as it would only be applicable to those conceptual replications, not the original structures.

that is the thing, it should not be limited, it should be based on showing, but well they think I am mentally weak for asking for proof of something that never happened

 

[Deceived3596]

If y'all agree that it should be limited then why are y'all fighting .

We'll have to see what Fuji's opinions are when she wakes up, but at least we can find solace in the fact y'all two seemingly agree with each other's conclusion.

Edit: Nvm, y'all still disagree with each other, Pain edited her post, that's why if y'all read this it'll look weird.

 

[Dog3352]

that is the thing, it should not be limited, it should be based on showing, but well they think I am mentally weak for asking for proof of something that never happened

His comment says that Tatsumi has no proof that there is a source mind/soul and a conventional mind/soul, even after all the proof he has shown.

So now your claim is that they have two minds and two souls. Proof of that please.

The burden of proof is on you, how can you ask me to prove a negative.

If you do not have proofs and just mental gymnastics, please stop stressing it, this is going roundabout

You who contributed to him speaking in such a way, no one can stand you (and others) for 3 pages saying the same thing without even arguing against the evidence.

If you wanted to say it the way you explained it to me, explain your comment properly, instead of saying something completely different and saying that you wanted to say something else.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Dude what is your issue? Stop making rude comments

Now you decide to show up? Doesn't matter, I'm done. If you're not going to answer the question I addressed to you then please forget about it.

One of those pushing for the removal from your side has just admitted to not reading anything I've sent still you claimed that those points were addressed telling staff you called to not bother reading the CRT as it's only repetition and to take your word for it and agree with the thread. So essentially "trust me bro".

I've been accused of being rude 2 times before now on a basis that isn't rude in anyway. I will not make fun of anyone who possesses some form of disability but I can only consider people who think of usage of the word "Ignorance" and being told "to think" as being mentally weak/vulnerable. There are places in the world where much more serious stuff is happening and this level of conversation is what bothers you? No thank you. I might just leave while leaving a comment that is clearly rude so that the accusation can be justified in your part.

I shall be taking my leave now.

 

[Dog3352]

Give Tatsumi a time, even though Tatsumi obviously isn't being "rude", it's pretty obvious he's still kind of pissed off about this CRT.
Going on for 3 pages sending proofs of what you're talking about, and people just say "I disagree" without giving a single reason, not even refuting your arguments/evidence, would mess with anyone's mind, I'm not even him and I'm absurdly irritated with that.
No one here is a clown who keeps sending proofs to be disagreed without even being argued against, I think anyone can see Tatsumi's side.

 

[Deceived3596]

I can fill this thread starting to get a little heated, everyone needs to take a chill pill and relax.



Here, let's listen to Giveon and vibe out, takes that stress away instantly.

 

[Dog3352]

I can fill this thread starting to get a little heated, everyone needs to take a chill pill and relax.



Here, let's listen to Giveon and vibe out, takes that stress away instantly.

A man of culture I see

 

[Deagonx]

people just say "I disagree" without giving a single reason

That's not what happened. At all. Myself, Pein, and Fuji all gave arguments.

Tatsumi just won't accept that other people do not see things the way that he does and he is getting rude because of it. It's the same way it was when he was arguing for resistance to fear manip. He just kept explaining his opinion to me over and over and over no matter how many times I responded why I didn't see it the same way. I decided to stop responding to him because the argument never ends.

The last MG thread I was in I got accused of ignoring evidence to support MG.

And now I'm being accused of ignoring evidence to downplay MG.

I'm not supporting it or downplaying it. I defended Type 1 CM and Type 2 Info Manip, and Mid Godly Regen because those made sense to me. I agreed with removing Resistance to Fear Manip because it didn't make sense to me.

I am not ignoring evidence or arguments. I just don't share your opinion about a certain feat, that isn't a crime.

 

[Dog3352]

That's not what happened. At all. Myself, Pein, and Fuji all gave arguments.

Tatsumi just won't accept that other people do not see things the way that he does and he is getting rude because of it. It's the same way it was when he was arguing for resistance to fear manip. He just kept explaining his opinion to me over and over and over no matter how many times I responded why I didn't see it the same way. I decided to stop responding to him because the argument never ends.

The last MG thread I was in I got accused of ignoring evidence to support MG.



And now I'm being accused of ignoring evidence to downplay MG.

I'm not supporting it or downplaying it. I defended Type 1 CM and Type 2 Info Manip, and Mid Godly Regen because those made sense to me. I agreed with removing Resistance to Fear Manip because it didn't make sense to me.

I am not ignoring evidence or arguments. I just don't share your opinion about a certain feat, that isn't a crime.

Can you show me the answers to that comment on page 2? The one with MANY proofs, with several that hadn't even been placed on this CRT.
And how wrong is Tatsumi, many of the people here agreed that the Ingall spell had to be manually used by someone, but here, we have people saying it was apparently instinctive action, and everyone else completely ignoring it.
I myself can reread and find some with meaningless answers that defy logic itself, and some that weren't answered at all.

 

[Dog3352]

Besides the but, take a look at the answers.

"Wh-What is this?! Why is Aske...? Where did you gather all that magic
from?!”
“Thoughts and feelings are grounded in the source. I am Eleonore, the magic
that creates sources.”
“You can’t fool me! No sources are being created anywhere! You and the
ghouls are the only ones here!”
“Making sources here would spell disaster. That’s why I’m only creating the
emotions inside them.”
Zaburo was speechless. His Eyes were wide as he stared into her abyss. “That
can’t be... Creating only the emotions of a source shouldn’t be possible!”

“I’m sure I destroyed him,” he murmured.
“The
Death Strike Sword was forged after your reincarnation. It should be immune to
Agronemt.”
“What you destroyed was the fake I switched in.”
“A fake? No, I’m sure that was Melheis’s source. I saw it with my own
Eyes,” Zeke muttered, still unable to comprehend the situation.
“You see, I recently learned a new spell. You may even be familiar with it—
you witnessed it yourself over Limnet earlier.”
He gasped in realization.
“Eleonore? No, there’s no way you’d use a new life
as a sacrifice!”
“Of course I wouldn’t go that far. However, I did use the spell to create a
fake source with no consciousness. Although it looked the same, the source was
devoid of life.”
“That can’t be. My Eyes wouldn’t fall for a fake source! The battle wasn’t
even that long ago—you wouldn’t have had any time to research Eleonore’s
uses!”

The scans you posted indicate the opposite of what you're saying. It appears from the evidence that the Source acts as a container for these things, not that it serves the function of it.

However, I did use the spell to create a fake source with no consciousness. Although it looked the same, the source was devoid of life.”
“That can’t be. My Eyes wouldn’t fall for a fake source!

Why do you usually only replicate pseudo-origins that have magic, mind, body, one or both?

"... Because if you create the three copies of the source, it will become life with consciousness"

Points not Addressed by the Opposition​

---

Thought, Emotion & Conciousness​

It is stated that thoughts and Emotions dwell inside the source. Eleonore–magic which creates sources– in other not to fully create life didn't fully create a source but rather created only the thoughts and Emotions inside them

Spoiler

"Wh-What is this?! Why is Aske...? Where did you gather all that magic
from?!”
“Thoughts and feelings are grounded in the source. I am Eleonore, the magic
that creates sources.”
“You can’t fool me! No sources are being created anywhere! You and the
ghouls are the only ones here!”
“Making sources here would spell disaster. That’s why I’m only creating the
emotions inside them.”
Zaburo was speechless. His Eyes were wide as he stared into her abyss. “That
can’t be... Creating only the emotions of a source shouldn’t be possible!”

~Light Novel Volume 4, Act 1 Chapter 12​

Few chapters later, Anos utilizes the same magic to create a source which lacks conciousness.

Spoiler

“I’m sure I destroyed him,” he murmured.
“The Death Strike Sword was forged after your reincarnation. It should be immune to Agronemt.”
“What you destroyed was the fake I switched in.”
“A fake? No, I’m sure that was Melheis’s source. I saw it with my own Eyes” Zeke muttered, still unable to comprehend the situation.
“You see, I recently learned a new spell. You may even be familiar with it—
you witnessed it yourself over Limnet earlier.”
He gasped in realization.
“Eleonore? No, there’s no way you’d use a new life as a sacrifice!”
“Of course I wouldn’t go that far. However, I did use the spell to create a fake source with no consciousness. Although it looked the same, the source was devoid of life.”
“That can’t be. My Eyes wouldn’t fall for a fake source! The battle wasn’t even that long ago—you wouldn’t have had any time to research Eleonore’s uses”

~Light Novel Volume 4 Act 1, Chapter 15​

It's made clear that thoughts, emotions and conciousness exists inside the source. However, the source is defined as something that exists deeper than the soul and psyche

this creates a distinction between the conventional mind & soul and points out a mind and soul that exists within the source. This point is further supported by Anos casting magic with only his source and Sasha and Misha believing Anos is the Founder not from their heads or mind but from their very sources.
In the case of the twins, both the biological mind (the brain), the conventional mind (the heart–comprising both thought and emotions) were mentioned but it's said their belief has to come from their very sources. Infact, later on the twins asks Anos for an explanation on why their magic had gotten stronger and he tells them to ask their source.

All these line up to later events in the story where the source can be divided into 3 pseudo sources with the combination of all 3 of course giving birth to life with conciousness

The source possesses memories of it's own as characters can think even as only a source, cast magic as a source. The source itself is has a mind and soul of it's own separate from the conventional mind & soul.

Supporting Cases​

Characters not completely fleshed out but still their source shows indepence of their mind & soul.

Jerga
More supporting evidence to this will be Jerga. Jerga had his source and only his source transformed into magic, a part of the World's Order

Spoiler

“Is that why he converted his source into Aske?”
Her eyes widened. Then she giggled. “You really are amazing. How did
you figure that out?”
“It’s simple, really—when I used Aske earlier, I heard an oddly familiar
voice.” The voice had been a little different than in person, so I hadn’t been able
to recall whose it was at first. Now, though, I was pretty sure it had been
Jerga’s.
“Gods took part in the war back then. Transforming sources into magic is
beyond the realm of human capability, but it wouldn’t be impossible with the
combined power of the gods and holy water.”
The formula for Aske I’d used was based on that from two thousand years
ago. It was the same spell, yet the result had been different—in other words,
the order of the world had been rewritten by the gods.
“It’s just as you say. Commander Jerga gave up his life to commit his
feelings—his wholehearted desire for revenge—into Aske magic.

His source that was turned into magic is capable of thoughts and having emotions. Jerga still carries his hatred in his source after becoming magic and infact still holds his memories.

Shin Reglia
Shin despite being bad at source magic and will be unable to completely transfer all his powers and memories into his new vessel states that while he may forget, his source itself shall remember Anos.

Spoiler

Source magic, the highest grade of which included spells like Syrica, was that which affected one’s source. Anos would be capable of transferring all his power and memories to his reincarnated body, but those who struggled using source magic would reincarnate imperfectly. They would lack power
and memory.
[...]
“I am eternally grateful for your compassion, my liege. Though I may lose my memories in reincarnation, my source will never forget you.”

Melheis Boran
Melheis despite having his memories erased recognizes Anos immediately he sees him, stating his source remembers Anos and is telling him that Anos is the Founder.

Spoiler

Melheis approached me silently. I didn’t sense any particular hostility
from him. He stopped a few feet away from me, activated his Eyes, and
inspected me closely.
Several seconds later, he kneeled on the spot, a single tear spilling down
his cheek
“I have long awaited your return, my most revered liege, Demon King
Anos Voldigoad.”
“Melheis, do you remember me?”
The Demon Elder shook his head. “To my greatest shame, I do not. I was bested by a fiend who erased my memories. Nevertheless, my source
remembers my liege. Now that I’m face-to-face with you, I am sure of it.”
[...]
“By the time I returned to Dilhade, the name of the Demon King of
Tyranny had already changed to Avos Dilhevia. I had no memories, but something about the name always felt wrong to me. The other Demon Elders
had complete faith in Avos Dilhevia, but I’ve always had my doubts.”
“And those doubts have now turned to conviction.”
Melheis bowed his head politely. “They have indeed. My source is telling
me that you are the true Demon King.”

Leorg Indu
When sources of different levels face off against each other, fear of the greater source can cause the magic of the weaker one to go berserk.

Leorg's source was trembling in fear of Anos source. A fear that Leorg himself didn't feel but his source did. Another case of the source independent action of the mind.

Personality & Memories​

Curse King Kaihilam Jiste is a character who has two personalities, the main one being Kaihilam and the other being his lover Jiste.

Spoiler

“Hey, so, what was that?” she whispered.
“As you’ve probably guessed by now, the Cursed King has two personalities: his main identity as the Cursed King Kaihilam, but also his lover, Jiste.”
“That makes absolutely no sense.” Sasha glanced at the Cursed King. Although Kaihilam Jiste had an androgynous face, his body was complete male.
“The dual personality isn’t too much of a concern; the trouble comes with how the source and memories change when the identities switch. None of Kaihilam’s memories can be probed while Jiste is in control.”
“How strange,” Misha murmured.
“There’s definitely only one source between them, though, and the Cursed King has no control over when the identity swaps happen.

His case isn't a normal case of Dissociative Identity Disorder. Both Kaihilam and Jiste are separate individuals but the same nonetheless. When either personality takes over, the source itself and their memories change to that of the active personality but both share only one body and source between themselves.
While Kaihilam is active, it is impossible to prove Jiste's memories and while Jiste is active, it is impossible to prove her for Kaihilam's memories.

A clear case of memories being inside the source. A change in the personality of the source causes the mind and the memories it harbors to change as well.

---

Those who have mastered magic and become aware of their source are able to act, think as only a source. Soul Manipulation and Mind Manipulation are useless on them in the first place since the source holds influence over the body, mind and soul and it is also a body, mind and soul of it's own in addition to storing memories and possessing memories of its own which cannot be erased.

There's actually a lot more that wasn't addressed like corruption madness and Necromancy targeting the source, Ennesuone who doesn't have a soul, God's who don't possess minds etc but I'm too tired to write on them

All of that has been addressed repeatedly.

In the first, you say that you are wrong because it is said that a source without the 3 has no life, despite Tatsumi answering with the obvious, a source with all 3 is a life with conscience, and that is why Anos and Eleonore avoid giving the 3 for the fonts, besides making it very obvious that the normal contains all the 3, just the fact that Anos uses Ingall only with his font says a lot.
In the second, despite Tatsumi having sent several proofs that had not even been cited, you just said that you had already said such a thing.
In addition to having moments where they don't even mention the fact that Eleonore says that she is only creating the feelings and thoughts of the source (just knowing the meaning of "only", it makes it very obvious that the source has them, only Eleonore is just creating them ), or Arnos saying he created a source without consciousness (another one that makes it obvious that a source has consciousness),
And Anos using Ingall only with his source was literally ignored, with the only answer to that being "instinctive action", despite the fact that we agreed in a previous thread that the spell is activated manually.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I'd say so, yes, but given the recent controversy perhaps we should get a couple more people's input.

@LephyrTheRevanchist @DarkGrath can you take a look at the OP and a few of the responses? No need to read through the whole thread, it is largely repetitive. Myself and Glassman think the removal is appropriate.

against my better judgement

Will take a look shortly.

 

[Dog3352]

against my better judgement

Will take a look shortly.

As a final comment (I don't even need to read the rest of the topic), Tatsumi already proved the existence of a source mind/soul and a conventional mind/soul.

Points not Addressed by the Opposition​

---

Thought, Emotion & Conciousness​

It is stated that thoughts and Emotions dwell inside the source. Eleonore–magic which creates sources– in other not to fully create life didn't fully create a source but rather created only the thoughts and Emotions inside them

Spoiler

"Wh-What is this?! Why is Aske...? Where did you gather all that magic
from?!”
“Thoughts and feelings are grounded in the source. I am Eleonore, the magic
that creates sources.”
“You can’t fool me! No sources are being created anywhere! You and the
ghouls are the only ones here!”
“Making sources here would spell disaster. That’s why I’m only creating the
emotions inside them.”
Zaburo was speechless. His Eyes were wide as he stared into her abyss. “That
can’t be... Creating only the emotions of a source shouldn’t be possible!”

~Light Novel Volume 4, Act 1 Chapter 12​

Few chapters later, Anos utilizes the same magic to create a source which lacks conciousness.

Spoiler

“I’m sure I destroyed him,” he murmured.
“The Death Strike Sword was forged after your reincarnation. It should be immune to Agronemt.”
“What you destroyed was the fake I switched in.”
“A fake? No, I’m sure that was Melheis’s source. I saw it with my own Eyes” Zeke muttered, still unable to comprehend the situation.
“You see, I recently learned a new spell. You may even be familiar with it—
you witnessed it yourself over Limnet earlier.”
He gasped in realization.
“Eleonore? No, there’s no way you’d use a new life as a sacrifice!”
“Of course I wouldn’t go that far. However, I did use the spell to create a fake source with no consciousness. Although it looked the same, the source was devoid of life.”
“That can’t be. My Eyes wouldn’t fall for a fake source! The battle wasn’t even that long ago—you wouldn’t have had any time to research Eleonore’s uses”

~Light Novel Volume 4 Act 1, Chapter 15​

It's made clear that thoughts, emotions and conciousness exists inside the source. However, the source is defined as something that exists deeper than the soul and psyche

this creates a distinction between the conventional mind & soul and points out a mind and soul that exists within the source. This point is further supported by Anos casting magic with only his source and Sasha and Misha believing Anos is the Founder not from their heads or mind but from their very sources.
In the case of the twins, both the biological mind (the brain), the conventional mind (the heart–comprising both thought and emotions) were mentioned but it's said their belief has to come from their very sources. Infact, later on the twins asks Anos for an explanation on why their magic had gotten stronger and he tells them to ask their source.

All these line up to later events in the story where the source can be divided into 3 pseudo sources with the combination of all 3 of course giving birth to life with conciousness

The source possesses memories of it's own as characters can think even as only a source, cast magic as a source. The source itself is has a mind and soul of it's own separate from the conventional mind & soul.

Supporting Cases​

Characters not completely fleshed out but still their source shows indepence of their mind & soul.

Jerga
More supporting evidence to this will be Jerga. Jerga had his source and only his source transformed into magic, a part of the World's Order

Spoiler

“Is that why he converted his source into Aske?”
Her eyes widened. Then she giggled. “You really are amazing. How did
you figure that out?”
“It’s simple, really—when I used Aske earlier, I heard an oddly familiar
voice.” The voice had been a little different than in person, so I hadn’t been able
to recall whose it was at first. Now, though, I was pretty sure it had been
Jerga’s.
“Gods took part in the war back then. Transforming sources into magic is
beyond the realm of human capability, but it wouldn’t be impossible with the
combined power of the gods and holy water.”
The formula for Aske I’d used was based on that from two thousand years
ago. It was the same spell, yet the result had been different—in other words,
the order of the world had been rewritten by the gods.
“It’s just as you say. Commander Jerga gave up his life to commit his
feelings—his wholehearted desire for revenge—into Aske magic.

His source that was turned into magic is capable of thoughts and having emotions. Jerga still carries his hatred in his source after becoming magic and infact still holds his memories.

Shin Reglia
Shin despite being bad at source magic and will be unable to completely transfer all his powers and memories into his new vessel states that while he may forget, his source itself shall remember Anos.

Spoiler

Source magic, the highest grade of which included spells like Syrica, was that which affected one’s source. Anos would be capable of transferring all his power and memories to his reincarnated body, but those who struggled using source magic would reincarnate imperfectly. They would lack power
and memory.
[...]
“I am eternally grateful for your compassion, my liege. Though I may lose my memories in reincarnation, my source will never forget you.”

Melheis Boran
Melheis despite having his memories erased recognizes Anos immediately he sees him, stating his source remembers Anos and is telling him that Anos is the Founder.

Spoiler

Melheis approached me silently. I didn’t sense any particular hostility
from him. He stopped a few feet away from me, activated his Eyes, and
inspected me closely.
Several seconds later, he kneeled on the spot, a single tear spilling down
his cheek
“I have long awaited your return, my most revered liege, Demon King
Anos Voldigoad.”
“Melheis, do you remember me?”
The Demon Elder shook his head. “To my greatest shame, I do not. I was bested by a fiend who erased my memories. Nevertheless, my source
remembers my liege. Now that I’m face-to-face with you, I am sure of it.”
[...]
“By the time I returned to Dilhade, the name of the Demon King of
Tyranny had already changed to Avos Dilhevia. I had no memories, but something about the name always felt wrong to me. The other Demon Elders
had complete faith in Avos Dilhevia, but I’ve always had my doubts.”
“And those doubts have now turned to conviction.”
Melheis bowed his head politely. “They have indeed. My source is telling
me that you are the true Demon King.”

Leorg Indu
When sources of different levels face off against each other, fear of the greater source can cause the magic of the weaker one to go berserk.

Leorg's source was trembling in fear of Anos source. A fear that Leorg himself didn't feel but his source did. Another case of the source independent action of the mind.

Personality & Memories​

Curse King Kaihilam Jiste is a character who has two personalities, the main one being Kaihilam and the other being his lover Jiste.

Spoiler

“Hey, so, what was that?” she whispered.
“As you’ve probably guessed by now, the Cursed King has two personalities: his main identity as the Cursed King Kaihilam, but also his lover, Jiste.”
“That makes absolutely no sense.” Sasha glanced at the Cursed King. Although Kaihilam Jiste had an androgynous face, his body was complete male.
“The dual personality isn’t too much of a concern; the trouble comes with how the source and memories change when the identities switch. None of Kaihilam’s memories can be probed while Jiste is in control.”
“How strange,” Misha murmured.
“There’s definitely only one source between them, though, and the Cursed King has no control over when the identity swaps happen.

His case isn't a normal case of Dissociative Identity Disorder. Both Kaihilam and Jiste are separate individuals but the same nonetheless. When either personality takes over, the source itself and their memories change to that of the active personality but both share only one body and source between themselves.
While Kaihilam is active, it is impossible to prove Jiste's memories and while Jiste is active, it is impossible to prove her for Kaihilam's memories.

A clear case of memories being inside the source. A change in the personality of the source causes the mind and the memories it harbors to change as well.

---

Those who have mastered magic and become aware of their source are able to act, think as only a source. Soul Manipulation and Mind Manipulation are useless on them in the first place since the source holds influence over the body, mind and soul and it is also a body, mind and soul of it's own in addition to storing memories and possessing memories of its own which cannot be erased.

There's actually a lot more that wasn't addressed like corruption madness and Necromancy targeting the source, Ennesuone who doesn't have a soul, God's who don't possess minds etc but I'm too tired to write on them

Most of this has not been properly addressed in this CRT, you can have a look at the comments after this comment, nothing answers all this evidence.

Tatsumi and I are suggesting unconventional resistance to the source's mind/soul, but this will not be related to the characters' conventional mind/soul, only characters with their proper resistance feats will have resistance to soul/mind manipulation.

 

[Deagonx]

Tatsumi already proved the existence of a source mind/soul and a conventional mind/soul.

He made an argument for it, he did not "prove" it. Several people including myself disagree.

 

[Dog3352]

He made an argument for it, he did not "prove" it. Several people including myself disagree.

Yes, yes, however you like (since a source might feel fear, being said to have emotions, personality, memories, thoughts, and conscience doesn't prove they have a conscience, I don't know what would be proof for you).

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I would support a change to "limited" resistance, specifically noting that they may have some resistance to memory manipulation and cannot be killed through soul manipulation, but I dont see any other application for the information we have that would equate to a broader resistance.

I'd say it wouldn't even be resistance at all. The function of their mind/soul is a part of their concept (allegedly). So they wouldn't be resisting mind/soul, but concept manip in the first place.

They have not shown that, no. Same goes for mind manipulation, as I have seen several scans of mind control type abilities working perfectly fine without the source "protecting" the target's mind.

also let's be real they're not gonna try again after last time

But if this is the case, sheesh this verse just doesn't know how to follow its own internal logic huh

So yeah, gotta agree with Deagon and Fuji here.

 

[Deagonx]

sheesh this verse just doesn't know how to follow its own internal logic huh

That appears to be the case, yeah. One of the main arguments being made is some kind of system where characters have two minds and two souls, one which is on the surface and the other is part of the Source, (or that the Source can essentially fill the function of a mind and soul) and the approach being taken is that they should therefore have resistance because normal people with soul and mind manip would only be able to target what is essentially a decoy soul/mind and not actually affect them in a meaningful way.

The basis for this, as it's been presented to me, is largely a combination of a scan that says the Source is deeper than the soul/mind, and others which associate the Source as having memories, emotions, consciousness, et cetera.

To me, resolving this inconsistency with some kind of dual layered mind and soul for each character is absolutely batty and I am more inclined to think that the best solution is to see the "Source is deeper" phrase as being more metaphorical than literal and that the Source appears to have an intrinsic connection and might even contain aspects of a person we consider the mind or soul, as there are instances of Sources which lack a consciousness, or having emotions removed, et cetera.

But either way none if it, as far as I am concerned, justifies the claim that if Anos or some such character were targeted by another characters mind manip or soul manip that he would be able to shrug it off and say "whoops, looks like you targeted my body's mind, which is meaningless, for you have failed to affect my Source mind!"

So yeah, gotta agree with Deagon and Fuji here.

In that case, with three staff votes, @Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara please feel free to enact the above-mentioned changes.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

That appears to be the case, yeah. One of the main arguments being made is some kind of system where characters have two minds and two souls, one which is on the surface and the other is part of the Source, (or that the Source can essentially fill the function of a mind and soul) and the approach being taken is that they should therefore have resistance because normal people with soul and mind manip would only be able to target what is essentially a decoy soul/mind and not actually affect them in a meaningful way.

The basis for this, as it's been presented to me, is largely a combination of a scan that says the Source is deeper than the soul/mind, and others which associate the Source as having memories, emotions, consciousness, et cetera.

To me, resolving this inconsistency with some kind of dual layered mind and soul for each character is absolutely batty and I am more inclined to think that the best solution is to see the "Source is deeper" phrase as being more metaphorical than literal and that the Source appears to have an intrinsic connection and might even contain aspects of a person we consider the mind or soul, as there are instances of Sources which lack a consciousness, or having emotions removed, et cetera.

But either way none if it, as far as I am concerned, justifies the claim that if Anos or some such character were targeted by another characters mind manip or soul manip that he would be able to shrug it off and say "whoops, looks like you targeted my body's mind, which is meaningless, for you have failed to affect my Source mind!"


In that case, with three staff votes, @Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara please feel free to enact the above-mentioned changes.

Pretty much it just doesn't make sense.

Either they are all conceptual beings in terms of their abstract functions of "mind and soul", and thus interacting with their "mind/soul" would be a general application of their concept manip (which as power system goes, would be fair enough imo).

Or their "mind and soul" is indeed separate to their "conceptual body", and as such, they would need to showcase actual resistance. Which apparently they haven't. So yeah.

 

[Dog3352]

That appears to be the case, yeah. One of the main arguments being made is some kind of system where characters have two minds and two souls, one which is on the surface and the other is part of the Source, (or that the Source can essentially fill the function of a mind and soul) and the approach being taken is that they should therefore have resistance because normal people with soul and mind manip would only be able to target what is essentially a decoy soul/mind and not actually affect them in a meaningful way.

The basis for this, as it's been presented to me, is largely a combination of a scan that says the Source is deeper than the soul/mind, and others which associate the Source as having memories, emotions, consciousness, et cetera.

To me, resolving this inconsistency with some kind of dual layered mind and soul for each character is absolutely batty and I am more inclined to think that the best solution is to see the "Source is deeper" phrase as being more metaphorical than literal and that the Source appears to have an intrinsic connection and might even contain aspects of a person we consider the mind or soul, as there are instances of Sources which lack a consciousness, or having emotions removed, et cetera.

But either way none if it, as far as I am concerned, justifies the claim that if Anos or some such character were targeted by another characters mind manip or soul manip that he would be able to shrug it off and say "whoops, looks like you targeted my body's mind, which is meaningless, for you have failed to affect my Source mind!"

Pretty much it just doesn't make sense.

Either they are all conceptual beings in terms of their abstract functions of "mind and soul", and thus interacting with their "mind/soul" would be a general application of their concept manip (which as power system goes, would be fair enough imo).

Or their "mind and soul" is indeed separate to their "conceptual body", and as such, they would need to showcase actual resistance. Which apparently they haven't. So yeah.

Try not to comment on this kind of thing as if you read the WN/LN, we're saying this because we saw it being stated in the WL/LN, you disagree it doesn't mean you're right.

I'll ask again, and ask again, if the source doesn't have a consciousness separate from the normal mind, how is it able to cast spells, feel emotions, have thoughts, have consciousness, have memory, and have personality?

-Fonts are able to remember things that the owner himself does not remember (memories).
-Sources have thoughts, emotions and consciousness.
-Fonts are capable of feeling emotions that their owner cannot with their own mind.

 

[Deagonx]

I'll ask again, and ask again, if the source doesn't have a consciousness separate from the normal mind, how is it able to cast spells, feel emotions, have thoughts, have consciousness, have memory, and have personality?

I feel like I answered this clearly enough, but I will respond to this once more concretely, and then close the thread now that a 3 vote consensus has been met.

The simple answer is that in practice the "normal mind" is either just an instantiation of the consciousness and emotion of the Source or that there is no "normal mind" at all. In either case, no matter how you chop up this relationship, we do not have sufficient information to infer that a character from MG with a Source would display a peculiar immunity or resistance to mind manipulation or soul manipulation. That's a bizarre extrapolation from an inconsistently described relationship between the three. You may not agree, but myself Glassman and Lephyr do.

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara if you need to get Anos' profile unlocked to apply the CRT, use the All-Purpose thread now that this thread is settled.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Try not to comment on this kind of thing as if you read the WN/LN, we're saying this because we saw it being stated in the WL/LN that if you disagree it doesn't mean you're right, and I don't think you're being exactly naive here yourself.

Pardon?

I'll ask again, and ask again, if the source doesn't have a consciousness separate from the normal mind, how is it able to cast spells, feel emotions, have thoughts, have consciousness, have memory, and have personality?

With my interpretation, those things would be by default a function of the source/concept. There you go, problem solved. Fits in imo as a baseline, given the scans in the OP. But then the verse contradicts this (apparently), so now we need more proof of things. Proof which haven't been brought up. On top of that... So? That doesn't mean they suddenly get resistance.

-Fonts are able to remember things that the owner himself does not remember (memories).
-Sources have thoughts, emotions and consciousness.
-Fonts are capable of feeling emotions that their owner cannot with their own mind.

Goes in line with my interpretation, yes.