A Gentle Pull Downgrade

[Agnaa]

Bump (._.)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

You could perhaps ask someone like Ryukama or Cal Howard if Dino is busy ATM.

 

[Agnaa]

ty for the suggestion, I've asked them.

 

[Agnaa]

Ryukama says:

I'm sorry but I agree with DDM and Dino. And I don't really have anything to add to the discussion.

Cal hasn't responded yet.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Yeah, so, from what I've seen, most of these threads were simply consisting of arguments along the lines of "conceptual / abstract characters can exist, and so the Gentle Pull deserves a profile".

I am sorry, but this counterargument really has no basis and is just pretending that the Gentle Pull has enough information to be considered an actual character / force that is deserving of a profile, basically comparing entities whose abstract existence is far more explicit to some vaguely defined thing that has been brought up during a single sentence and never again been spoken of or referenced, unless someone is willing to post this so-called scan where it is mentioned, and even then, making a profile for that thing seems to be the equivalent of making a profile for the Force, or for Gravity.

I should also point out that even its ratings are extremely vague as is; That it defies space and time doesn't prove Immeasurable Speed in any way whatsoever, and characters of far lesser scale can be said to do that as well (i.e anyone with Acausality), and from what Rosalina's dialogue states, nowhere is it treated as a supreme deity or as having powers that far exceed her own, it's just... Vague, and again, making a profile for it seems no different from making a profile for gravity.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that the profile should probably be deleted then. All of the pages that link to it need to be updated though: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/index....tLinksHere&target=The+Gentle+Pull&namespace=0

 

[Agnaa]

I'd like to wait for Cal's input first, I don't want to jump to something like that so quickly.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, of course.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I do not know where the link/scan to said interview is, but it was literally brought up by multiple staff members that it Nintendo piratically confirmed of an existing deity in those threads I linked. It's not just "Rosalina talking about some force", or "Abstract existences are a thing", but I suppose we can wait for Cal.

 

[InfiniteSped]

From that gameplay quote, it sounds more like hyperbolically talking about the power of friendship/love, rather than about some actual cosmic force. Like all the "love is the most powerful thing in the universe" quotes you see everywhere.

 

[LuckyEmile]

Honestly, the desire to be reunited with someone important to you, or "Gentle Pull" as the wiki nicknames it, is a confusing thing. Since no one has bothered to look into the Prima Guides, I'll just post the scan myself because a quick search was all it took. Prima Guide on ending. I don't see anything referring to it, but hey, Rosalina's canonically a princess now.

I guess this means that the only source we have (unless this interview is unrealted to the guide) is the text at the end of the game. As far as I know, it's really just "Fate / Plot Armour realised in-universe", with it being an explanation as to why Mario can always save Peach. It's really thematic considering that's the plot of basically half the games. I've been informed apparently some people disagree with this because Rosalina says it reunited her with the SMG2 cast, and she doesn't love Mario/Mario doesn't love her. But... I thought it was pretty obvious she was talking to Young Master Luma, the reincarnation of the first Luma she ever adopted and who gifted her the Comet Observatory. Sounds like "someone important" to her. After all, who else would be her "precious little one"? Not to mention Rosalina is thankful to be reunited with him.

Some people are mad at defying space and time being seen as transcending space-time, and I guess I can see why. At it's simplest (applying Occam's Razor?), "the desire to be reunited with someone important to you" is a force that acts more or less as fate. It works anywhere and anywhen. Let's look beyond Mario Galaxy 2 to see why. Mario rescues/is reunited with Peach in the Mushroom Kingdom, Booster's Tower, the centre of the universe, even the Overthere itself. So it makes sense that space isn't a factor which limits it (ergo, it applies anywhere). As for time, well, he rescued her even in the past of another timeline in Partners in Time, and Mario RPG retcons the geography of the Mushroom world to quite an extend, but he'll still be reunited with her (ergo, it applies anywhen, even across time, timelines and retcons). And it applies to others too. Even in Boo Woods, Evershade Valley and The Last Resort, Luigi is capable to rescuing and being reunited with Mario. Notice that the name of this force signifies it's someone important to you, so full-on romantic love isn't a requirement. A close friend or family member will do (if Luigi isn't enough, just look to Rosalina and Young Master Luma). As such, it really does seem like some really buffed up Fate Manipulation.

So, should this page be deleted? I don't think so. All this stuff just further empathisises its existence, and helps supply backing up to its range. I don't think a downgrade really makes its existence any more meaningless (EDIT: or maybe I should say "less meaningful") than before. Whilst I'm aware some wikis dislikes this concept, I think we should pride ourselves on catching onto it and seeing it as worthy of a page, even if we have taken a few quotes out of context.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I am back to being neutral then.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It does explain how Mario is able to best so many Low 2-C and 2-B final bosses despite lacking any sort of his own power up. But anyway, if anyone knows where the interview is, there should be a link to it as I'm having trouble finding it via google search. And considering OBD seems to consider Gentle Pull a character and that multiple users are mentioning the interview, I'm inclined to believe that such an interview does exist.

 

[Genericstickman]

So should we wait until the interview or found or what? Also I believe TGP should probably keep their profile since they do have stuff to justify one

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'd say the profile can remain for now, but keep the thread open till someone finds it. Then we can add the link and close the thread once it is obtained.

 

[Agnaa]

Please let me weigh in a little bit once the interview's found before the thread's closed. Currently I'd like to remove Reality Manipulation, Causality Manipulation, Space/Time Manipulation, Low 2-C, 2-B, and Immeasurable Speed from the profile, and I'd need a chance to see whether the interview justifies any of these.

I also think it may deserve "Resistance to Law/Physics Manipulation" being added, but I'm not super sure on this one.

 

[LuckyEmile]

I agreed with the Resistance to Law Manipulation, as not only does Rosalina explicitly state such, but it also seems to be above the Grand Star if it can secure Mario's victory against a Grand Star-amped Bowser, and is therefore above the laws of the universe (the great cycle of life and Change, the latter of which I have seen people argue is above the other laws). I say this because the Grand Star was Bowser's means of bending Change to his will, as well as likely the great cycle of life (Resistance to Life and Death Manip???). Since it notes Change is the only constant, and constants are laws are far as I'm aware (though I think the great cycle of life is also a law, probably, since a lot of emphasis was put of it), this should indeed mean Grand Stars have Law Manipulation. And I assume if Bowser tapped into this Law Manipulation in SMG2, he likely still would have lost due to how The Gentle Pull, or more precisely how the desire to be reunited with someone important to you, works. Not to mention it does go on to say that Bowser "paid the price" for messing with these laws, which is vaguely implied to be divine retribution from The Gentle Pull, or maybe I'm reading into it to much at this point.

Of course, by being above, I mean in a sort of hierachy, as opposed to something like AP. The idea being the great cycle of life Ôëñ Change < Grand Star < the desire to be reunited with someone important to you / The Gentle Pull. (And technically the Big Rock Who Watches, who is likely the one aware of the A button/the player could just refuse to beat the game to reunite Mario and Peach, but ssssh).

However, I'm curious. Thinking of what hax Change would be... is that Causality Manipulation? Or is there just no ability attached to it? Anyway, something to look into. I think the best idea if to wait for someone to find and supply the interview, but discussions of what to take away/add to the profile should be fine in the meanwhile, since it's a fun discussion topic. Anyway, hope this was something interesting.

 

[Agnaa]

The reason I'm 100% sure about Resistance to Law Manipulation, is that it kinda feels like the ability itself overpowers another one, rather than there being an actual resistance for The Grand Pull itself as an entity. Like how someone making a wound that can't be healed isn't Resistance to Healing.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm fine with removing causality manipulation since it seems rather vague, but Gentle Pull does indeed have stronger levels of Reality Warping than the Grand Star, which already has Low 2-C levels of reality warping/Space-Time Manipulation. And also, the "Fate Manipulation" does have Gentle Pull using Tier 4 protagonists to best Low 2-C to 2-B villains.

Gentle Pull is also literally Omnipresent as Cal mentioned the will of everyone was used in context.

 

[Agnaa]

When was TGP ever stated to warp reality?

 

[LuckyEmile]

Yes, I think it would be helpful if you could supply us with the reasoning for that, DarkDragonMedeus, as we can't really add stuff off of faith in people's word alone. Whilst this desire is clearly above Grand Stars, I don't think it can mimic and surpass its usage of abilities by default if that's what you're implying....

As for omnipresence, due to its range, I think that is a fair conclusion.

(Basically this is a glorified bump, but I don't want to ditract the thread from DarkDragonMedeus's argument, as it seems pretty important)

 

[MrWarnerTheGreat]

I don't know if this thread is still up and running, but based off the Gentle Pull and Mario PIS y'all mentioned shouldn't that be protection? I don't know if y'all acknowledge that here or not.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't fully understand how we handle protection tbqh, especially in weird circumstances like this.

My assumption would be, since we only know that the Gentle Pull helped in Galaxy 2, we'd take that as a one-off event, rather than assuming Mario always has fate manip to help him win.

 

[Antvasima]

@Agnaa & all staff members

So what should we do here?

 

[Agnaa]

I'd like support on multiple statements, such as the idea that TGP warps reality, or the interviews/guidebook/website scans that apparently back up TGP's current rating.

I'd like to downgrade to Unknown, remove most of its abilities, and remove Immeasurable speed (but keep Omnipresent speed) if nothing is presented to substantiate these things.

But I'm not sure if those knowledgeable on the character are actually in the process of digging these things up...

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation. I would also appreciate some help from other members here.

 

[Chariot190]

https://www.scribd.com/doc/311617947/Super-Mario-Galaxy-Official-Prima-Game-Guide-pdf

I know that some of it comes from this, albeit I do not know where but given nobody has done anything I thought I'd at least give a bit of a source even if I do not know when in the source it is said.

 

[LuckyEmile]

I did give the scan to the prima guide, but it didn't even mention the event. I'll repost it here for clarity: SMG2 Prima Guide on Ending.

I think Protection is an appealing ability for Mario in light of this, as well as Luigi (for aforementioned reasons), Peach (Super Princess Peach was a role reverse), possibly Young Master Luma and Rosalina (the whole reason this force/desire was brought up by her was due to it reunited the two), and basically anyone with a desire to be reunited with someone important to them. However, as Agnna mentioned, the only case we know involves the desire to be reunited with someone special to you/The Gentle Pull intervening with 100% certainty is in SMG2. So, whilst there is a lot of evidence that this thing has been pulling the strings in many, many adventures, it is likely just the statements being so thematic to the series as a whole that they work well together, but by all means aren't confirmed. As such, it's a rare event as far as explicit statements go, and so, whilst appealing, is unfortunately a little questionable. Though, perhaps looking into a "possibly" variant of the ability could work/be looked into? As whilst mainly based off theory, it's not exactly a stretch. (If you want me to elaborate on this again, I don't mind, but I'll refrain for now for the sake of being concise).

The abilities will have to go under scrutiny for sure. Trying to find out why it would have Reality Warping would be of use, but if the proof never makes itself known, I guess there is no harm in passing this CRT and then making a CRT later for when the proof is found, just so things don't drag on and this gets forgotten. The other downgrades seem fine, though (as long as the range is accounted for).

I guess that we are still waiting for an interview, and I hope the people who claimed it exists are still willing to find it and post it, but... I mean, if it becomes ages until then, maybe we should accept it's not going to come...? Who knows, but at least things seems to be running smoothly at the moment.

 

[Callinater]

It's possible that this force of love Rosalina describes is just flowery language on how strongly love can motivate you. This force of love just doesn't seem to be acknowledged enough by Nintendo to make me believe this idea of a 'force of love' is a literal thing that exists in the mario verse, especially considering how most mario games are rather unpoetic and unromantic. As such I personally believe The Gentle Pull shouldn't have a profile as I don't believe it actually exists.

 

[InfiniteSped]

That's the impression I got as well.

 

[Genericstickman]

So now we just wait until a link to the interview is found

 

[Chariot190]

I didnt link the SMG2 guide though, I linked the SMG1 guide? Dont know if that matters but I thought some of the info came from the SMG1 prima, not SMG2.

 

[LuckyEmile]

especially considering how most mario games are rather unpoetic and unromantic.

Ah yes, the franchise that time and time again uses the story of a man saving a woman who is very important to him is unromantic. As previously addressed, the Mario games are exactly about being reunited with someone special to you. See Super Mario Bros, Super Mario Bros: The Lost Levels, Super Mario Bros 3's final world, Super Mario World, Super Mario 64, Super Mario 64 DS, Super Mario Sunshine's second act, New Super Mario Bros, Super Mario Galaxy, New Super Mario Bros Wii, Super Mario Galaxy 2, New Super Mario Bros 2, New Super Mario Bros U, New Super Luigi U, New Super Mario Bros U Deluxe, Super Mario Odyssey, Luigi's Mansion, Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon, Luigi's Mansion 3, Super Princess Peach, Super Mario RPG's first few chapters, Paper Mario, Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door, certain chapters in Super Paper Mario, Paper Mario: Sticker Star, after a short while into Paper Mario: Colour Splash, mid-late game Mario & Luigi: Super Star Saga, Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time, late game Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story, mid-to-late game Mario & Luigi: Dream Team Bros, Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam Bros, Super Princess Peach, Yoshi's Island, Yoshi's Island DS, Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker and probably a ton of other titles I'm forgetting. I... don't quite know where you got this impression. Also, it's less a force of love, and more so the will to be reunited with those important to you.

I didnt link the SMG2 guide though, I linked the SMG1 guide? Dont know if that matters but I thought some of the info came from the SMG1 prima, not SMG2.

Ah, the way you worded it implied you thought no one ever sent a scan, so that's why I reposted it. Whilst there is a statment implying this force exists in SMG, saying Bowser paid the price for bending the great cycle of life/change, implying some form of divine retribution beyond the Grand Star (something that matches this force very well), it's really just retroactive implications, so we can't be all too sure... As the idea was properly introduced in SMG2, though, that's the better place to look and, unfortunately, it's skimmed over entirely...

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Still a light reminder, it's literally an interview with Nintendo is the primary reason Gentle Pull exists as a character; in which they describe them as a supreme deity and loosely describe Gentle Pull as "The Player/You".

But yes, we still need to dig up for it, but it's mentioned too many times by too many staff users, so it definitely exists.

 

[LuckyEmile]

Still a light reminder that we're still waiting on this interview to be provided >_<

 

[Genericstickman]

Maybe the real interview is the friends we made a long the way

 

[Genericstickman]

Has the interview been found yet?

 

[InfiniteSped]

Phineas And Ferb Song Were Watching And Were Waiting-1576777749

 

[Genericstickman]

This'll take longer then most revisions

 

[Antvasima]

If there is no interview, should we go with Agnaa's suggestions instead?