God of War Supporters Pull a Helios ⌈Magic Resistance Removal⌋

[Deceived3596]

I saw that Bleach was commented on as a comparison in this thread and decided to comment. I haven't read it much, so I don't know what is truly being argued about. I will say that Bleach's Universal Energy System has an abundance of evidence proving that possessing more Reiryoku, the verse's main UES, does provide you resistances to the applications of that energy, generally speaking. It doesn't provide you resistance to all abilities powered by it, but the general abilities the energy system grants you are resisted by possessing more Reiryoku.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bleach is a good example of this, but I won't discuss that with you.

On the contrary, you keep saying "that's not how the page and UES work, no that's not true" but the page I quoted also states this clearly.

Fuji, just... Don't reject something for the sake of rejecting it.

Also ;


In short, the purpose of UES is to have the abilities or powers that qualify for this nature scale to an equivalent degree by default.
If you can use "X" ability because of UES, you will be able to use all its equivalent abilities and also gain resistance. Because the page states that you "scale by default" to all other abilities or stats

The page only describes some specific abilities, there are many more abilities like that and then states that they are the same nature because to UES, as I said the page is very long, I just gave you the "quote where abilities are also noted as resistances".

However, the page explains that they are of the same nature, and I quote this as well ;

What is said in this quote is not much different from what is said on the UES page.

Magics/Forces has the same nature, and this is basically UES, where by all abilities scale with each other by default and scale with those using those abilities.

None of this has anything to do with resistances. You are fundamentally misunderstanding the purpose of a UES; In the case of GoW, it just means that one's magic and physicals can be equalized (for example, Zeus firing a low 1-C lightning bolt means he can punch with low 1-C force, because magics scalesto physicals). This is what the UES page is talking about in the sections you quoted. It does not establish that using magic makes you resistant to magic, nor would we assume that by default (the UES page makes no mention of resistances).

I saw that Bleach was commented on as a comparison in this thread and decided to comment. I haven't read it much, so I don't know what is truly being argued about. I will say that Bleach's Universal Energy System has an abundance of evidence proving that possessing more Reiryoku, the verse's main UES, does provide you resistances to the applications of that energy, generally speaking. It doesn't provide you resistance to all abilities powered by it, but the general abilities the energy system grants you are resisted by possessing more Reiryoku.

Thank you. Was gonna call out the constant whataboutism myself but you beat me to it.

 

[Georredannea15]

I saw that Bleach was commented on as a comparison in this thread and decided to comment. I haven't read it much, so I don't know what is truly being argued about. I will say that Bleach's Universal Energy System has an abundance of evidence proving that possessing more Reiryoku, the verse's main UES, does provide you resistances to the applications of that energy, generally speaking. It doesn't provide you resistance to all abilities powered by it, but the general abilities the energy system grants you are resisted by possessing more Reiryoku.

Yes, with UES you scale to all the abilities and stats that UES includes. The page also mentions this.

Actually, that's what I wanted to say but anyway...

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yes, with UES you scale to all the abilities and stats that UES includes. The page also mentions this.

Actually, that's what I wanted to say but anyway...

It also doesn't mention resistances, Geor. It just means abilities drawn from the same pool of energy should be equal in strength. Which, for the fiftieth time, does not equate to a resistance of any kind.

Can you please quote the section of the UES page which mentions resistances?

 

[Georredannea15]

None of this has anything to do with resistances. You are fundamentally misunderstanding the purpose of a UES; In the case of GoW, it just means that one's magic and physicals can be equalized (for example, Zeus firing a low 1-C lightning bolt means he can punch with low 1-C force, because magics scalesto physicals). This is what the UES page is talking about in the sections you quoted. It does not establish that using magic makes you resistant to magic, nor would we assume that by default (the UES page makes no mention of resistances).

The page mentions "scaling".


Scaling to stats or abilities grants you abilities and resistances themself on that level

Then let me quote one more ;

• Universal Energy System: Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would also scale to all other statistics. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

I've quoted it again for you, but UES gives you these by default...

Btw this is just one type of UES but the working principle is the same in all types, if you have the same nature they all scale to each other.

“Scaling” here also includes durability and resistance.

Just look at where I marked in bold.


Also, if you want abilities to not scale to resistance, you need to remove it from the magic page and UES page. And that means a different thread because this thread offers a different reason.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The page mentions "scaling".


Scaling to stats or abilities grants you abilities and resistances themself on that level

Then let me quote one more ;

I've quoted it again for you, but UES gives you these by default...

Btw this is just one type of UES but the working principle is the same in all types, if you have the same nature they all scale to each other.

“Scaling” here also includes durability and resistance.
r example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

Okay. So the page does not actually mention resistances, which means the resistance should be removed. Thank you for clarifying that.

 

[Georredannea15]

Okay. So the page does not actually mention resistances, which means the resistance should be removed. Thank you for clarifying that.

I guess you don't really want to read... Okay, just go ahead. If it's removed from page, I'll probably add it back and call the staff directly for this without further ado, because unfortunately you don't read it or you don't want to read it. But it's okay, you may disagree

And also ;

Also, if you want abilities to not scale to resistance, you need to remove it from the magic page and UES page. And that means a different thread because this thread offers a different reason.

 

[KingNanaya]

The page mentions "scaling".

it's talking about AP

 

[Georredannea15]

it's talking about AP

Page basically says the same thing about other types and general UES, I don't know how many times I've quoted this above. So... There's no need to do any more back and forth, right?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Page basically says the same thing about other types and general UES, I don't know how many times I've quoted this above. So... There's no need to do any more back and forth, right?

There is, because the section you keep quoting to "prove" that resistances scale to a UES actually clarified that it was talking about striking strength, durability, and attack potency:

That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability.

It never mentions resistances at all. You just made that up. People don't like it when I call GoW supporters liar, but there's not another word to describe someone who swears up and down a pages says XYZ when the page does not, in fact, say XYZ.

 

[Georredannea15]

There is, because the section you keep quoting to "prove" that resistances scale to a UES actually clarified that it was talking about striking strength, durability, and attack potency:

Universal Energy Systems are a fairly common element in fictional stories possessed by certain characters to display incredible feats and powers, often being born out of fantastical or otherwise otherworldly elements such as Magic, Chakra, Chi and a myriad of other possible energy systems. Often the argument is made for a character’s specific powers to scale linearly to their physical statistics and other supernatural abilities in their arsenal, oftentimes being matched by an opposing view that these powers should be their own matter entirely.

“Scaling” here is not just about having these abilities; scaling is having this power/force and it gives you resistance and ability


For example, a character may only have ability X but may not scale directly to it.

However, if a power is spiritual in nature, someone who uses it can also resist soul attacks because they can handle that power. If this energy is a "UES" then anyone who uses this power will have it

But like I said, just go ahead, if it gets removed I'll open a good one to add later and call the staff directly to avoid going back and forth with more people because I'm someone who likes to go straight to the end.

It never mentions resistances at all. You just made that up. People don't like it when I call GoW supporters liar, but there's not another word to describe someone who swears up and down a pages says XYZ when the page does not, in fact, say XYZ.

I'm sorry, but you were the one who said "GoW supporters added it without any approved thread or reason" in the title.

As you can see, there is an accepted thread for this and also a long and detailed page.

You are the one doing this. Just don't do that.

 

[Robo432343]

i'll wait for better counterarguments

 

[SeijiSetto]

“Scaling” here is not just about having these abilities; scaling is having this power/force and it gives you resistance and ability

where does it say that on the page. like those exact words, or a phrase that means exactly the same thing.
because the example given refers PURELY to stats, hence why it equates an 8-C fireball with an 8-C punch.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I feel it would be best to ignore Geor at this point, as I am not entirely convinced he isn't simply baiting everyone. The fact remains that the UES page does not mention resistances, no matter how many times you say it does.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Snip

I have little stake in GOW (though I find your reasoning stronger than the others), but I just have to say that the thread title and your comments so far are frankly tepid at worst. People keep on going after you for "Rudeness" or whatever rather than striking out at your points, and stoop to constant tone policing. Not a great way for the opposition to make their case. Worse, one of the Thread Moderators is seemingly contributing little but tone policing, and this does little more than derail the discussion.

Not that my words hold any weight, but I agree with your revision unless stronger arguments show otherwise.

 

[Dammerung0858]

I understand where you're coming from, of course, and I'll take this opportunity to step away for a bit to clear my head (I'm a bit busy at the moment, anyways). However, I think this also might be coming from a place of unfamiliarity with VSBW's rules; When someone makes a change to a profile, like adding a new ability, it must first be evaluated and approved by staff members. This is to ensure that the wiki doesn't devolve into utter chaos. This is a requirement for all members, and is something we take very seriously; We even have a thread dedicated to reporting unauthorized edits, as we consider them vandalism. So whether or not there was valid evidence doesn't matter in this case, because that evidence was never posted anywhere and wasn't evaluated by staff. Thus, it cannot be added, no matter how good that hypothetical evidence may be.

Apologies if I came off as overly harsh, though. I've just seen this happen a lot with GoW, and it's frustrating to see vandalism get swept under the rug so frequently. We as a wiki should be better than that.

Oh! Oh, yeah, okay, I get that. My bad, that's... not great. If nothing else, it needs to be corrected, intent aside, that's a heck of a mistake. And I'm sorry for jumping in and not getting that right. I need to learn faster about how VSBW operates! I'm also definitely sorry, I don't want to make you feel like you have to apologize to me at all. I'm just... I'm just some guy, really. You've helped me out a ton, thank you for that!

Actually, there's a pretty good direct example I can point to here. Oceanus formerly had "creation and life manipulation" for the act of having a lot of sex. This is blatantly incorrect and I think everyone agrees with me on that (it's become somewhat of a joke on this forum). However, despite how staggeringly wrong it was, I couldn't just remove it whenever I wanted, and needed to make a thread first. It's like that with everything here, for better and for worse.

For what it's worth, Oceanus gets sort of dumped on by God of War as a franchise, I'm kinda glad somebody threw that poor guy a bone.

Wait, no, not like that!

I'm sorry, but you were the one who said "GoW supporters added it without any approved thread or reason" in the title.

As you can see, there is an accepted thread for this and also a long and detailed page.

You are the one doing this. Just don't do that.

The problem I have here is that it seems like the UES system which would give them resistances doesn't? The specific types of scaling listed are for striking strength, attack potency, and durability, and I'm not seeing anything on the long and detailed page which talks about universal magic user resistances to their own magic. The closest I could find was when Seidr magic was discussed:

Naturally, the best wielders of Seidr magic would get resistance to all the abilities above as well, since they are visibly unharmed by its corrupting effects.

This is a fair statement, but the best wielders of Seidr magic are gods, Freya and Odin, not general magic users, who are all very much corrupted by its use. I apologize, I am deeply grateful for your linking us to the magic explanation page, but I am having trouble finding anything more specific than that.

 

[Georredannea15]

This is a fair statement, but the best wielders of Seidr magic are gods, Freya and Odin, not general magic users, who are all very much corrupted by its use. I apologize, I am deeply grateful for your linking us to the magic explanation page, but I am having trouble finding anything more specific than that.

This expression is the specific magic of the realms themselves, rather than general magic.

where does it say that on the page. like those exact words, or a phrase that means exactly the same thing.
because the example given refers PURELY to stats, hence why it equates an 8-C fireball with an 8-C punch.

I also explained this on the GoW page I quoted above.


There is something that Fuji and the participants do not understand, if Fuji wants to remove these resistances, then she must change what is written on the nagşc page, this is because the mechanics of the verse are basically this, also the reason for removing the title is different.

In summary, if she has a problem with resistances, this problem should be solved with the mechanics of the verse.

My god, the GoW page is so long, how many more comments can I quote?

Also need to clarify this "UES and resistance" nonsense, so... Go ahead.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh! Oh, yeah, okay, I get that. My bad, that's... not great. If nothing else, it needs to be corrected, intent aside, that's a heck of a mistake. And I'm sorry for jumping in and not getting that right. I need to learn faster about how VSBW operates! I'm also definitely sorry, I don't want to make you feel like you have to apologize to me at all. I'm just... I'm just some guy, really. You've helped me out a ton, thank you for that!

No worries, and don't worry about learning every nuance of VSBW right away. It definitely takes time to adjust to the way this site does things, especially since the rules are frequently changed (sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse). If you have any questions, you're more than welcome to ask me on my wall.

I also explained this on the GoW page I quoted above.

There is something that Fuji and the participants do not understand, if Fuji wants to remove these resistances, then she must change what is written on the nagşc page, this is because the mechanics of the verse are basically this, also the reason for removing the title is different.

In summary, if she has a problem with resistances, this problem should be solved with the mechanics of the verse.

My god, the GoW page is so long, how many more comments can I quote?

Also need to clarify this "UES and resistance" nonsense, so... Go ahead.

For the record, I will also be removing the gods' resistance to magic, as well as magic's innate soul manipulation. The unfortunate fact of the matter is that GoW is so bloated with incorrect or exaggerated abilities that it simply isn't possible to tackle them all at once; I have to do things one at a time, otherwise threads would easily broach 20k words, and god knows nobody wants to deal with that. The issues becomes even more apparent when straightforward justification removals like this one can easily stretch on for several pages whilst we argue over semantic nonsense; Imagine doing that in a thread 30x larger than this one.

The problem I have here is that it seems like the UES system which would give them resistances doesn't? The specific types of scaling listed are for striking strength, attack potency, and durability, and I'm not seeing anything on the long and detailed page which talks about universal magic user resistances to their own magic. The closest I could find was when Seidr magic was discussed:

This is a fair statement, but the best wielders of Seidr magic are gods, Freya and Odin, not general magic users, who are all very much corrupted by its use. I apologize, I am deeply grateful for your linking us to the magic explanation page, but I am having trouble finding anything more specific than that.

This is an excellent point. The GoW pages assert that magic users are immune to the magic they use, including specific variants of it such as Seidr and Bifrost (for example, Ares is said to resist his own unique subtype of magic found within Ascension's multiplayer). However, if this was a universal trait among magic users, then Seidr would not corrupt any of its users. They would simply shrug it off by virtue of their innate resistance to the magic they wield.

This expression is the specific magic of the realms themselves, rather than general magic.

This is incorrect. Many pages give characters resistance to realm-specific magic, such as Ares (linked above). The same goes for most Grecian gods, or anyone who wields any of the myriad sources of magic found within the Nordic realms (such as Odin's resistance to Bifrost).

 

[Hasty12345]

I agree with Fuji here, not a single verse on the wiki that uses UES behaves in the way Geo is saying.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Agree with fuji

 

[Georredannea15]

For the record, I will also be removing the gods' resistance to magic, as well as magic's innate soul manipulation. The unfortunate fact of the matter is that GoW is so bloated with incorrect or exaggerated abilities that it simply isn't possible to tackle them all at once; I have to do things one at a time, otherwise threads would easily broach 20k words, and god knows nobody wants to deal with that. The issues becomes even more apparent when straightforward justification removals like this one can easily stretch on for several pages whilst we argue over semantic nonsense; Imagine doing that in a thread 30x larger than this one.

So according to you, affecting or destroying souls is not soul manipulation? I see, Fuji.

Just do it, I'll have it added back later. I'm going to open it bigger and basically I'm going to call the staff directly so it doesn't get ridiculously long because I don't want to argue with someone who specifically claims that

This is incorrect. Many pages give characters resistance to realm-specific magic, such as Ares (linked above). The same goes for most Grecian gods, or anyone who wields any of the myriad sources of magic found within the Nordic realms (such as Odin's resistance to Bifrost).

Just... look at the magic page, each realm has its own magic.

Like Seidr magic or Vanir magic.

 

[Hasty12345]

If you have evidence that the claims on the explanation page are true, just drop them. Don't waste everyone's time editing pages if you're just going to drop a CRT with actual evidence of the claims. This strategy of just "opening a new CRT" every time people disagree with you is just disrespecting everyone else's time.

If you have scans and arguments and promise to send them, the thread will wait. It will save more time in the long run.

 

[Georredannea15]

If you have evidence that the claims on the explanation page are true, just drop them. Don't waste everyone's time editing pages if you're just going to drop a CRT with actual evidence of the claims. This strategy of just "opening a new CRT" every time people disagree with you is just disrespecting everyone else's time.

If you have scans and arguments and promise to send them, the thread will wait. It will save more time in the long run.

1- If she has a problem, she should deal with it on the page, not in this thread.

2- The page is already approved and has gone through many revisions. Why should I have to prove the correctness of something that has already been accepted and approved? Don't oppose just to oppose, at least say something logical
Dude wants proof for the truth of the matter that has already been accepted and confirmed Lmao

3- Since the page is already long, I will open it myself longly.

 

[Hasty12345]

1- If she has a problem, she should deal with it on the page, not in this thread.

2- The page is already approved and has gone through many revisions. Why should I have to prove the correctness of something that has already been accepted and approved? Don't oppose just to oppose, at least say something logical
Dude wants proof for the truth of the matter that has already been accepted and confirmed Lmao

3- Since the page is already long, I will open it myself longly.

You’re using the fact it was previously accepted as a counter argument?

 

[Georredannea15]

You’re using the fact it was previously accepted as a counter argument?

I mean... If something has already been proved to be true, confirmed and written on the page, and you claim that it is not true, the burden is on you to prove it that's not true.

I don't have the burden of proving that something that is already officially approved and on the page is true, you have the burden of proving that it is wrong. As I said, don't take a stand for the sake of taking a stand, and if you take a stand, at least say something better, because what you are saying is ridiculous...

It's like saying “if you say 2+2=4, prove it's true"

 

[Robo432343]

I mean... If something has already been proved to be true, confirmed and written on the page, and you claim that it is not true, the burden is on you to prove it that's not true.

thats why this content revision was made...to contest that...

 

[Georredannea15]

thats why this content revision was made...to contest that...

Then let him open a thread claiming that this is wrong. As I said, the burden of proof is on him.

As long as the page is there, I don't need to prove anything.

 

[Hasty12345]

I mean... If something has already been proved to be true, confirmed and written on the page, and you claim that it is not true, the burden is on you to prove it that's not true.

I don't have the burden of proving that something that is already officially approved and on the page is true, you have the burden of proving that it is wrong. As I said, don't take a stand for the sake of taking a stand, and if you take a stand, at least say something better, because what you are saying is ridiculous...

It's like saying “if you say 2+2=4, prove it's true"

So you don't have a counterargument?

I really hope you don't open a CRT with the argument "It was accepted before" because that would be really unfortunate.

 

[Robo432343]

Then let him open a thread claiming that this is wrong. As I said, the burden of proof is on him

the thread is literally right here

this is getting sad

 

[Georredannea15]

the thread is literally right here

this is getting sad

Dude look at this thread... The OP says “GoW supporters have added these resistances despite not having any valid and confirmed revisions, so they should be removed”... There is no argument here why the abilities on the magic page should not be resistances or anything like that. There is also an approved revision and page about why we added it... Not to mention, it's ironic that he slanders and calls supporters liars.


You can read the OP, right?

 

[Georredannea15]

I really hope you don't open a CRT with the argument "It was accepted before" because that would be really unfortunate.

Unless you can refute the mechanics on the page, your arguments will go down the drain. Dude you know? saying “prove it's true” for counter argument something officially sanctioned was one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard in my life... Thanks to you, I saw that too

 

[Hasty12345]

Unless you can refute the mechanics on the page, your arguments will go down the drain. Dude you know? saying “prove it's true” for counter argument something officially sanctioned was one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard in my life... Thanks to you, I saw that too

The mechanics on the page have no evidence. Claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

 

[Georredannea15]

The mechanics on the page have no evidence. Claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Lmao the page contains scenes, scans, statements and references, with descriptions.

Sorry man, saying “no evidence” doesn't work. You have to prove that the evidence is not sufficient.

I doubt you even read the page, but anyway...

 

[Hasty12345]

Lmao the page contains scenes, scans, statements and references, with descriptions.

Sorry man, saying “no evidence” doesn't work. You have to prove that the evidence is not sufficient.

I doubt you even read the page, but anyway...

quote the part of the page that supports mortal magic users getting an intrinsic resistance to all of their magic based hax.

We have already established this is not how UES work on the wiki, the least you can do is quote where the GoW magic page says this.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Fuju is right. UES is about abilities having the same potency as other powers. Resistances is a seperate thing from UES. The only time they have a direct linkage to each other is when the franchise in question has resistances tied with energy, so more energy = more resistance. But for that it still wouldn't apply to mortals since the resistances start at Gods and wouldn't downscale. For the OP I agree with the removal barring new evidence being presented.

 

[Georredannea15]

quote the part of the page that supports mortal magic users getting an intrinsic resistance to all of their magic based hax.

Already quoted above from the magic page.

We have already established this is not how UES work on the wiki, the least you can do is quote where the GoW magic page says this.

It's about verse. And as I said, I quoted above 2 or 3 times

 

[Georredannea15]

Fuju is right. UES is about abilities having the same potency as other powers. Resistances is a seperate thing from UES. The only time they have a direct linkage to each other is when the franchise in question has resistances tied with energy, so more energy = more resistance. But for that it still wouldn't apply to mortals since the resistances start at Gods and wouldn't downscale. For the OP I agree with the removal barring new evidence being presented.

The UES, which I quoted from the GoW's magic page, basically explains this. Magic users also gain resistance to that ability via UES in the verse

 

[Hasty12345]

I think you're beating a dead horse mate

 

[Qawsedf234]

The UES, which I quoted from the GoW's magic page, basically explains this. Magic users also gain resistance to that ability via UES in the verse

They probably do, but this is why I added this part

But for that it still wouldn't apply to mortals since the resistances start at Gods and wouldn't downscale

If the resistances were only accepted for Gods, that means that anyone weaker than Gods wouldn't gain this resistance with UES. Like how in Dragon Ball you wouldn't gain hax resistance unless you're stronger than someone with said hax.

You would first need to make a CRT or change proposal that gives mortals magic resistance that then upscales to Gods. Since you can't downscale a resistance afaik.

 

[Georredannea15]

They probably do, but this is why I added this part


If the resistances were only accepted for Gods, that means that anyone weaker than Gods wouldn't gain this resistance with UES. Like how in Dragon Ball you wouldn't gain hax resistance unless you're stronger than someone with said hax.

You would first need to make a CRT or change proposal that gives mortals magic resistance that then upscales to Gods. Since you can't downscale a resistance afaik.

So you are saying that the abilities and resistances provided by the UES apply to gods but not to mortal humans.

But the page basically says that anyone who uses magic with UES has it because every being, has a life energy whose soul is made up of 4 metaphysical parts and comes from primordial chaos. And the metaphysical nature of the soul together with the soul is the same in all beings, and it all comes from “primordial chaos”, which is a primordial force from spark of the world, which is also the magic that encompasses all realms.