9-A World's Greatest Fighters Tournament: Zangief vs Brad Armstrong (Round 1)

[RandomGuy2345]

Welcome to the first round of the 9-A World's Greatest Fighters Tournament!

Introducing first, he may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but he more than makes up for it with brawn and superb grappling. It's Zangief!

And his opponent, he may not look big (compared to his opponent), but size matters not! It's Brad Armstrong!

Rules are stated here.

Bro Is Dead: 3 (Volley, Brad, Reaper)

Midas Try Not To Meat Ride Challenge (Impossible): 7 (Zoro, Random, Midas, Naitodesu, Tony, Patou, Super)

I Will Cook Midas If He Lets This Happen: 1 (Lemon)

 

[SamanPatou]

Introducing first, he may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but he more than makes up for it with brawn and superb grappling. It's Zangief!

I beg to differ

 

[Armorchompy]

Brad has a fireball

Zangief hates fireballs

Zangief sees fireballs and resigns

Brad wins

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I beg to differ

Shhhhhhhh

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Zangief: 418 Megajoules

Armstrong: 236.31 Megajoules

Zangief holds a ~1.77x AP advantage.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

I'm GONNA RIDEEEE.

Anyway. So initial thoughts.

Zangief has the AP advantage (236.31 vs 418 Megajoules) With his durability scaling even higher than that.

Zangeif has a massive Lifting Strength advantage (Class 5 vs Class M) and, as a Wrestler, Zangief is going to be grabbing, throwing, and generally restraining him pretty often.

Zangief can nullify Brad's fire-based projectiles with moves like "Banishing Flat" which naturally negates any sort of projectile that touches the strike. He can also forcefully close the distance, as several of his moves allow him to muscle through attacks without being knocked back (Iron Muscle, for example).

Rn I think it's pretty much over if Gief grabs him. He should just be able to suplex him repeatedly at that point.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Looking at the raw numbers of both of their AP, Brad has x1.77 AP disadvantage, although Brad can also further increase his strength with Joy and if we go by game stats, it multiplies his AP and dura between 2 to 3x.

I'll just post the classic Brad stuff,

Brad's inhuman stamina-wise. He can tank slices, gunshots and powerful strikes with little impediment to his fighting ability, can fight while being heavily debuffed by severe withdrawal and can still fight with efficacy even while on fire, poisoned and under other status effects.
As for this key specifically, becoming a porcupine of spears, arrows, bullet wounds and entire swords driven into his body and enduring strikes from the Rando that stabbed through his chest and targetted his heart didn't really impede his fighting ability.
This is without taking into account his healing items.

In terms of skill,
Brad is an immensely skilled martial artist who invented an entire martial arts style, and those taught to use it are by far the most efficient fighters in all of Olathe. He has demonstrated his prowess by defeating champion-class wrestlers in direct combat, learning other styles and incorporating their teachings just by reading their scrolls, using his style efficiently even against armed adversaries, ranging from swordsmen to gunslingers, and he can accomplish these even with both arms chopped off at the shoulder.

Brad also has fireballs and probably a bunch of firebombs, which let him play at range while also doing some decent damage since Zangief ain't got the best heat resist

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright so, at a glance

Zangief has an obvious massive advantage in LS which he is definitely going to be eager to abuse, a roughly 2x AP advantage (I think both upscale) and more experience (I think skill is arguable)

Brad has a massive edge in stamina, projectiles (which Zangief, ironically, actually has plenty of tools to deal with)... his only big advantage is his equipment, which granted is pretty handy, I doubt Zangief would take too kindly to a molotov cocktail and Joy both heals and amps him.

I think you can argue Brad can actually counter grappling to an extent with his fireballs, he can shoot them even with his arms chopped off at the shoulder so he can presumably do it even when physically restricted. So Zangief can't just end the fight the second he gets his hands on Brad (which he will! oh he definitely will), but he can still do a lot of damage.

I'm unsure, I think Brad's going to be on the backfoot through most of the fight but there is a chance he can just outlast Zangief, between his monstrous stamina and healing there's little Gief can do to put him down rapidly despite the AP advantage, but that has a limit and ironically turning into a Joy Mutant would make Brad easy prey for Zangief, who would now just have to deal with a big dumb beast (remember, he trains with bears, so that's actually something he has experience with)

Not voting yet.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Huh.

Brad surprisingly doesn't get stomped to the ground on this one.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah I thought he would too, I think being able to fireball while grappled is basically the only reason he doesn't.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

His insane stamina/will also helps him potentially outlast Zangief here.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Looking at the raw numbers of both of their AP, Brad has x1.77 AP disadvantage, although Brad can also further increase his strength with Joy and if we go by game stats, it multiplies his AP and dura between 2 to 3x.

Even if it's a 3x increase. Zangief has more than enough raw resilience to wether any attack he throw at him. His muscles are so thick that Balrog, a 9-A who scales to the 418 joules value had his punch completely negated with a flex. On top of several of his moves either further increasing his durability, or allowing him to endure attacks that would otherwise damage him without harm.

Brad also has fireballs and probably a bunch of firebombs, which let him play at range while also doing some decent damage since Zangief ain't got the best heat resist

Playing range is certainly possible. But Gief, as mentioned in an earlier comment, does have ways of dealing with projectiles.

Head Butt and Banishing Flat are both moves that allow Gief to completely cancel out incoming projectiles, for instance. He can use those to close the gap as he approaches.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Leaning towards Zangief.

I'll hold back my vote so I don't seem too hasty.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I'm unsure if the projectile-nullification moves would do much since Brad's fireballs are more streams of fire than fireballs in this form and the Molotov Cocktails explode on impact. Plus, Brad's TNT can reduces others to nothing but a black smudge, so it'd definitely do a number on Zangief

Also wanna note that Burning Head Slide is one of Brad's main moves in this key, "a sliding head strike aimed at the opponent's knees" would exploit Zangief's sheer size and build and porbably make him stumble or fall.
And while Zangief is momentarily down, Brad can capitalize on the opening by following up with his stronger moves

 

[SamanPatou]

I'll elaborate more in the future overall, but how good are Armatrong's fireball and how good is he with them?

Because Zangief not only has moves meant to deal with them (even some to dodge), but has a record of dealing with projectiles users for years, and we're speaking of people such as Ryu, Ken, Guile, Rashid, Laura and potentially several others, all of whom have an array of projectiles and are extremely skilled in using them.

He can also just jump, as he appears to be much more agile that Brad, who also doesn't seem to have many counters to either flying attacks or being himself thrown into the air and then exposed to all other throws.

Zangief can also sort of close the distance though his air manip (although works in close) and the Ruler's Staying Hand, which albeit was only used once, still remains an option.

Also, does this Brad have his arms? Because if not, he might even struggle to just get off the ground if Zangief manages to bury him like he does with his SFV super.

Brad does indeed have super stamina, but having his body and head repeteadly crushed onto the floor by someone who has higher LS and AP should worn him out eventually, especially if he enters a streak from which he can't get out.

Also wanna note that Burning Head Slide is one of Brad's main moves in this key, a sliding head strike aimed precisely at the opponent's knees would exploit Zangief's sheer size and muscular build and porbably make Zangief stumble or fall.
And while Zangief is momentarily down, Brad can capitalize on the opening by following up with his stronger moves.

E. Honda, who is Zangief's long time rival, uses a quite similar technique, and Zangief still has a record of dealing with people who employ much crazier techniques in terms of acrobatics and agility.
Also, Brad might just end up being stopped or caught unless he times and aims very, very well.

I should add that Zangief also has means to increase his strength, notably a bunch of special and V techniques.

TNT and molotovs would indeed be problematic, but at the end they aren't too different from other projectiles, leaving the option of dodging them in time.
Also, the TNT might even become a double edge if Brad gets stuck in close and rysks to blow himself up too.

While entirely possible in a number of occasions, Brad could also struggle to consume items if busy dealing from close range, or remain open to yet other attacks.

Brad's profile also states this which, depending on the actual degree, would work to his disadvantage.
Although skilled in Martial Arts, he's deeply scarred and traumatized by his past experiences, hindering him quite a bit

 

[Armorchompy]

I'll elaborate more in the future overall, but how good are Armstrong's fireball and how good is he with them?

Fairly basic hadoukens, nothing Zangief's never seen before.

He can also just jump, as he appears to be much more agile that Brad, who also doesn't seem to have many counters to either flying attacks or being himself thrown into the air and then exposed to all other throws.

I mean in most of Zangief's throws he's in contact with the enemy for a second or two and that should be enough for Brad to blast him with fire if he does. Brad is not too agile but other party members and enemies are so he's not too much out of his depth against that.

On that topic Brad has plenty of experience against wrestlers and big muscular guys who're much stronger than him.

Also, does this Brad have his arms? Because if not, he might even struggle to just get off the ground if Zangief manages to bury him like he does with his SFV super.

He does, losing them is optional.

While entirely possible in a number of occasions, Brad could also struggle to consume items if busy dealing from close range, or remain open to yet other attacks.

Possible, yeah, though I think he'd be relatively smart about it.

Brad's profile also states this which, depending on the actual degree, would work to his disadvantage.
Although skilled in Martial Arts, he's deeply scarred and traumatized by his past experiences, hindering him quite a bit

I... don't really know if it's true, honestly, it doesn't really have an effect in a fight it just hinders him in social interactions. If anything it's noted that the Armstrong Style is built out of his pain.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Fairly basic hadoukens, nothing Zangief's never seen before.

That's only for Base Brad, Failure Brad has this

 

[Armorchompy]

fair enough, fairly basic kamehamehas it is

 

[CrackerVolley]

Brad has a fireball

Zangief hates fireballs

Zangief sees fireballs and resigns

Brad wins

Nice arguement.

Unfortunately,
Green Hand

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

What's stopping Zangief from just…not letting go if Brad hits him with a fireball after a grapple.

Like Zangief's durability>>418 MJs on top of already having a limited natural heat resistance. In addition, in character, he is perfectly willing to muscle through attacks if it means damaging his opponents. As shown through several of his specials.

The GIF posted also shows that Brad needs a split second to charge before his projectile is fired, which just gives Zangief more chances to simply drive his head into the ground until his skull splits open.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I mean, Brad's fire can sometimes burn those who can take TNT, which as previously established, is pretty hot
Plus, the argument for Brad is that he can whittle Zangief down with his non-stop attacks since Brad's Stamina is pretty busted, and most of Brad's healing at this point are full heals, which would basically negate all the damage that Zangief has done

 

[CrackerVolley]

Yeah, but Zangeif probably just needs one grab to win, regardless of healing, by simply restraining Brad, considering Class K lifting strength.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Brad would probably still be able to harm Zangief while he's restraining him tho, so it wouldn't count as Incon

 

[CrackerVolley]

Well then he could just shove him in the ground, or restrain the limbs, or slam his head into a rock.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

I mean, Brad's fire can sometimes burn those who can take TNT, which as previously established, is pretty hot
Plus, the argument for Brad is that he can whittle Zangief down with his non-stop attacks since Brad's Stamina is pretty busted,

That's fair I suppose.

Two questions.

1) Is Brad’s fire tied to any resource or can he spam it freely?

2) has Brad ever shown to expel fire omnidirectionally? If not, Zangief could possibly find a way to grab him in a way that he can’t fire the beam at him. Such as Pinning him to the ground in a way where his upper body is completely buried/upside down.

most of Brad's healing at this point are full heals

Would he even be able to heal while being grappled? Is it something he needs to physically eat, like a consumable?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Two questions.

1) Is Brad’s fire tied to any resource or can he spam it freely?

2) has Brad ever shown to expel fire omnidirectionally? If not, Zangief could possibly find a way to grab him in a way that he can’t fire the beam at him. Such as Pinning him to the ground in a way where his upper body is completely buried/upside down.

1) It's tied to his SP and costs 20 SP
Brad at this point would have around 600 SP
He also has Cocola Cola(s) which can restore 400 SP
2) He kinda does so in his other moves, his Dropkick and Burning Head Slide specifically,

Would he even be able to heal while being grappled? Is it something he needs to physically eat, like a consumable?

I was more like saying that Brad can utilize his healing after Zangief finishes his move rather than while being grappled, but even without it, Brad still has Mid-Low Regen and constant healing if we give him the Picnic Poncho

 

[CrackerVolley]

As mentioned before, Green Hand is a pretty strong counter to projectiles, and more importantly, Gief could use Emperor’s Staying Hand to harm and disrupt Brad from basically any distance (assuming he considers using it; it’s not part of his main toolkit).

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Might seem a little hasty, but my votes for Zangief.

Brad's weapons, projectiles, and busted stamina will allow to last a fair bit, and if given the chance, he could potentially outlast Zangief.

However, Zangief basically has everything else over him. His massive LS advantage means it's pretty much over when he ever grabs Brad. Zangief can let go of him anytime he wants, though I don't know if it's IC for Zangief to put someone in a hold the entire fight.

Zangief's durability will also make him hard to put down, even with Brad's 2-3x AP amps. Like Midas said, he can just no-sell things from people comparable to him.

Moves like Green Hand also hard counters projectiles.

My vote goes to Zangief.

 

[SamanPatou]

Fighting games (aside for Tekken with King) never show characters using locks because the game has to keep going, but honestly I don't see why Zangief wouldn't use them.

It's absolutely in character for him to prefer throw, slams and such, but as a wrestler he should be more than used and willing to utilize them.

He also isn't just a grappler, he has his own good deal of strikes between arms, legs, full body, headbutts and such, and is among the most seasoned and combat-wise characters in the cast, even through dialogues and interactions alone, given how respect he is by his peers.

I would also say that nothing prevents him from grabbing and restraining Brad's arms and hands, because while true that he's mostly known for piledrivers and such, he's spent his whole career dealing with people that shoot projectiles and a few of his techniques have him locking the opponent's upper limbs.

And with such a disadvantage, it really ends like being crushed by an immensely higher force, rather than simply someone relatively stronger, at that point someone's options become very limited if they end up in the wrong situation

I also want to point out that Brad's regen doesn't seem to be the most realiable, at least going by the description alone. Sounds more like a situational thing or bodily peculiarity for which he doesn't suffer from the full extent of what a wound would cause in real life, but without really healing it.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I'm not saying Zangief wouldn't use locks, I was saying that I'm not sure if it's IC for him to put someone in a lock/hold for the entire fight so they can't escape.

 

[SamanPatou]

Yep, it surely isn't his first or preferred option, but once he notices that this guy just doesn't stay down, he would probably adapt his strategy accordingly, given his battle-savvyness and his fighting style (in terms of wrestling, more than what shown in gameplay) making use of plenty of chokes and locks.

 

[Armorchompy]

I dunno if choking someone down is really viable if you're also being roasted with a flamethrower in the meantime. This is also assuming Brad is completely incapable of preventing Zangief from grappling him, which I don't think is fair. He isn't that much weaker, he has his own amps (not actually 2 or 3x though) and plenty of skill of his own, Zangief can't just walk up and pick him up.

 

[Chariot190]

How good is Zangief's heat and cold res? (Like any values or examples?).
I'm leaning a bit toward Gief, but knowing how good his temp res is would help to know how badly Brad's shit would effect him.

 

[SamanPatou]

It's on his file, his cold resistance comes from being unbothered by standing almost naked in a blizzard for long times and heat by standing in front of a furnace while holding a burning anchor and not suffer any burns.

They aren't the highest for sure, but it must be noted that he is accostumed at fighting people who use fire and electricity, so while absolutely not immune, it wouldn't be his first time dealing with such attacks or using his damage reducing techniques to block them.
I also want to add that he's got plenty of options to just avoid them.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean like, I just don't think he has the pain resistance to keep on grappling while he's being torched, let alone that I'm pretty sure the blasts have strength behind them and might just push him away.

 

[Chariot190]

I was hoping there was more to it tbh, that's kinda minor.

At that point, we should figure out how hot the fireballs he usually facetanks are, and compare them to Brad's. Atm his fire attacks actually would be pretty problematic for Gief, not impossible to get around but they might be crippling.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

The irony of me saying that a true fighter does not need weapons to win, and being very strict with allowing characters with weapons to come and join, all just for a character to win thanks to their weaponry.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, "facetanking" them requires a special technique, normally they make him flinch and that's within the limits of gameplay still.

I think Zangief can definitely win this for the record but grappling isn't an end all be all here.

 

[Chariot190]

The irony of me saying that a true fighter does not need weapons to win, and being very strict with allowing characters with weapons to come and join, all just for a character to win thanks to their weaponry.

You're in for a shock when you realize 90% of the wins in this tourney are gonna be from extra advantages over the foe from hax, armor, weapons, and so on, or straight-up statchecking the foe (Like Gief's main advantages here is the fact he abuses Class M LS and outstats the whole tourney besides Spidey).

Not one win is going to be from HTH skill strictly

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Should've been more strict.