MinatoSparkle
He/Him- 7,271
- 4,036
This is a response to the recent thread about Naruto Top Tiers, so reading the scaling there before this would probably be a good idea. I'll be talking about why 50% Kurama shouldn't scale to MKCM2 Naruto based on feats, statements, and scaling.
There's really no basis for MKCM2 Naruto's power being just Kurama's, as Kurama Mode in general is considered "Kurama's chakra fully released," meaning even the initial KCM2 Naruto that fought the Bijuu has access to Kurama's full power, which is supported by Kurama saying that Naruto has complete mastery over his power, which obviously isn't 100% true given that he didn't have the ability to transfer chakra yet, but for Kurama to say that, Naruto should at least be equal to Kurama on his own. And in the raws of the Kurama Mode databook page, the description reiterates this by saying Kurama Mode is Naruto and Kurama's full power.
九喇嘛とナルトが心を通わせ、全力を解放した、“九尾チャクラモード"の完成型!
This is the perfect version of the "Kyuubi Chakra Mode," in which Kurama and Naruto communicate with each other and unleash their full power!
It's also inconsistent with feats to say that 50% Kurama is at that level, since dying Minato and Kushina, with assistance from her chains, stopped him from stabbing Naruto. This isn't because Kushina is stronger than MKCM2 Naruto, as she's stated to pale in comparison to Naruto. This can be interpreted as only referring to chakra transfer, but then why say he's surpassed them outright and talk about his power? It's just far more reasonable to say that Kurama meant he surpassed them in chakra volume and control, so he surpassed them overall. Minato and Kushina scaling even slightly to 50% Kurama is just contradictory if he's supposed to be relative to MKCM2 Naruto.
VSBW hasn't accepted this battle as valid for the longest time, but SM Naruto vs Kurama really should be taken into consideration for 50% Kurama scaling, and SM Naruto, even with the Rasenshuriken, obviously doesn't scale to the Juubi whatsoever (given that even KCM Naruto's Rasenshuriken doesn't). The battle happening inside Naruto doesn't mean the fighter's don't have access to their real power. It's mentioned that Kurama had a possibility of taking all of Naruto's chakra from him, meaning he was fighting with all his chakra, and Kurama should also have access to all his chakra in that battle as it's all stored in the seal that Naruto fully opened. It's also indicated by the fact that comments about physical attributes are constantly made throughout the fight, which would be pretty strange if this is supposed to be a battle of willpower or whatever and not a strength based one.
I never really understood the reasoning for the fight not being accepted other than incredulity honestly. The whole point of the battle is overpowering and forcibly taking Kurama's chakra after all. And speaking of that fight, Kurama broke Kushina's chains (albeit with some effort), and that Kushina spirit had all of her remaining chakra, meaning she should still scale to the feats she performed near her death including the aforementioned restraining of 50% Kurama. In other words, Naruto fight Kurama scales to fatigued Kushina who scales to real 50% Kurama. There's also precedence for non-physical entities keeping their power, as Hagoromo's ghost was able to give his power to Naruto and Sasuke, Minato was able to restore Naruto's seal from inside his mind, the Bijuu gave Naruto chakra from the inner Bijuu mind space, etc. It's really consistent that characters in non-physical spaces (like Naruto's mind/seal, cough cough) retain the powers they have in the real world. Because they still have their chakra, the source of their strength.
If 50% Kurama doesn't scale to MKCM2 Naruto, it would fix the issue of SM Hashirama>Juubito which is very narratively inconsistent given that Juubito being stronger than Hashirama was the big hype he had upon first transforming, and he talks about how Hokage are nothing to him and he's more comparable to the Sage of Six Paths. I'm not saying Juubito should scale to Hagoromo, but the fact that there are so many statements about him possessing power on that level (which are arguably ability based in a lot of them, but some of them are blatantly about stats like Juubito when telling Naruto to not mock his power) does narratively support his presentation of being on a higher echelon than anyone else in the series so far. I also read the conversation about the Alive Hashirama>Edo Hashirama thing and don't think the idea of almost being vague is very strong, especially since on the profiles, Edos currently downscale to the same rating that their alive counterparts do in a lot of cases. Anyways, Edo Hashirama's Shinsuu Senju should be stronger than Unstable Juubito given how much stronger it is than the Wood Golem, so it doesn't make much sense even if Edo Tensei was a significant nerf.
Additionally, Kurama~Madara>BSM Naruto and 50% Kurama~MKCM2 Naruto currently, making Sage Mode less than a 2x boost, which is pretty insane given how much it's hyped ("修羅道"を一蹴!! “仙人モード”は能力が飛躍的に向上する。) as a massive power up. Hashirama, Madara, and Kurama scaling to 100 Teratons (while the SS/MAS scale to 200 Teratons) via SEMS Sasuke is a lot more consistent imo. Especially considering that 4 Juubidamas reduced Madara's Perfect Susanoo to nothing but an aura, despite Madara supposedly scaling almost 2x above the Juubi.
As for how this makes sense when KCM2 is just the merging of Naruto and Kurama's chakra, it can simply be that them working in sync are greater than the sum of their parts because of the different chakras mixing and amplifying each other, like how the Juubi>>All Bijuu combined, or maybe Naruto's chakra control made him stronger than 50% Kurama on his own. I'm aware that the Bijuu being dumb as said by Deidara isn't true, but that doesn't mean the fact that Jinchuriki>Bijuu isn't. He had to get that idea from somewhere, even if his prejudice gave him the wrong reasoning for why that was. You can argue it's a retcon, but the interpretation that makes two "contradictory" things consistent should be superior to one that simply discards one of them as false.
All around, there's just too many things you need to ignore to scale 50% Kurama to MKCM2 Naruto. Even a possibly is quite sus, but a full rating is simply cap. 50% Kurama scaling to initial KCM2 Naruto is far more logical. Before wrapping up with the proposals, I need to talk about how this also upscales KCM Naruto's RS and those that scale to it. This might seem like an issue since KCM Naruto's RS scales to 15.5 GT, but it's not like it's ever stated the trio's combined attack is exactly equal to Nagato's CT, and anyways that's stronger than Pain's. Could also downscale SM Naruto's RS from KCM Naruto's, since a 15.5 GT attack hurting a 21.5 GT character isn't outrageous or anything. Basically the options are downscaling SM Naruto's RS from KCM Naruto's and upscaling KCM Naruto's RS from SM Naruto's. I'm alright with either of them, though personally I think the second is less assumption based.
There's really no basis for MKCM2 Naruto's power being just Kurama's, as Kurama Mode in general is considered "Kurama's chakra fully released," meaning even the initial KCM2 Naruto that fought the Bijuu has access to Kurama's full power, which is supported by Kurama saying that Naruto has complete mastery over his power, which obviously isn't 100% true given that he didn't have the ability to transfer chakra yet, but for Kurama to say that, Naruto should at least be equal to Kurama on his own. And in the raws of the Kurama Mode databook page, the description reiterates this by saying Kurama Mode is Naruto and Kurama's full power.
九喇嘛とナルトが心を通わせ、全力を解放した、“九尾チャクラモード"の完成型!
This is the perfect version of the "Kyuubi Chakra Mode," in which Kurama and Naruto communicate with each other and unleash their full power!
It's also inconsistent with feats to say that 50% Kurama is at that level, since dying Minato and Kushina, with assistance from her chains, stopped him from stabbing Naruto. This isn't because Kushina is stronger than MKCM2 Naruto, as she's stated to pale in comparison to Naruto. This can be interpreted as only referring to chakra transfer, but then why say he's surpassed them outright and talk about his power? It's just far more reasonable to say that Kurama meant he surpassed them in chakra volume and control, so he surpassed them overall. Minato and Kushina scaling even slightly to 50% Kurama is just contradictory if he's supposed to be relative to MKCM2 Naruto.
VSBW hasn't accepted this battle as valid for the longest time, but SM Naruto vs Kurama really should be taken into consideration for 50% Kurama scaling, and SM Naruto, even with the Rasenshuriken, obviously doesn't scale to the Juubi whatsoever (given that even KCM Naruto's Rasenshuriken doesn't). The battle happening inside Naruto doesn't mean the fighter's don't have access to their real power. It's mentioned that Kurama had a possibility of taking all of Naruto's chakra from him, meaning he was fighting with all his chakra, and Kurama should also have access to all his chakra in that battle as it's all stored in the seal that Naruto fully opened. It's also indicated by the fact that comments about physical attributes are constantly made throughout the fight, which would be pretty strange if this is supposed to be a battle of willpower or whatever and not a strength based one.
I never really understood the reasoning for the fight not being accepted other than incredulity honestly. The whole point of the battle is overpowering and forcibly taking Kurama's chakra after all. And speaking of that fight, Kurama broke Kushina's chains (albeit with some effort), and that Kushina spirit had all of her remaining chakra, meaning she should still scale to the feats she performed near her death including the aforementioned restraining of 50% Kurama. In other words, Naruto fight Kurama scales to fatigued Kushina who scales to real 50% Kurama. There's also precedence for non-physical entities keeping their power, as Hagoromo's ghost was able to give his power to Naruto and Sasuke, Minato was able to restore Naruto's seal from inside his mind, the Bijuu gave Naruto chakra from the inner Bijuu mind space, etc. It's really consistent that characters in non-physical spaces (like Naruto's mind/seal, cough cough) retain the powers they have in the real world. Because they still have their chakra, the source of their strength.
If 50% Kurama doesn't scale to MKCM2 Naruto, it would fix the issue of SM Hashirama>Juubito which is very narratively inconsistent given that Juubito being stronger than Hashirama was the big hype he had upon first transforming, and he talks about how Hokage are nothing to him and he's more comparable to the Sage of Six Paths. I'm not saying Juubito should scale to Hagoromo, but the fact that there are so many statements about him possessing power on that level (which are arguably ability based in a lot of them, but some of them are blatantly about stats like Juubito when telling Naruto to not mock his power) does narratively support his presentation of being on a higher echelon than anyone else in the series so far. I also read the conversation about the Alive Hashirama>Edo Hashirama thing and don't think the idea of almost being vague is very strong, especially since on the profiles, Edos currently downscale to the same rating that their alive counterparts do in a lot of cases. Anyways, Edo Hashirama's Shinsuu Senju should be stronger than Unstable Juubito given how much stronger it is than the Wood Golem, so it doesn't make much sense even if Edo Tensei was a significant nerf.
Additionally, Kurama~Madara>BSM Naruto and 50% Kurama~MKCM2 Naruto currently, making Sage Mode less than a 2x boost, which is pretty insane given how much it's hyped ("修羅道"を一蹴!! “仙人モード”は能力が飛躍的に向上する。) as a massive power up. Hashirama, Madara, and Kurama scaling to 100 Teratons (while the SS/MAS scale to 200 Teratons) via SEMS Sasuke is a lot more consistent imo. Especially considering that 4 Juubidamas reduced Madara's Perfect Susanoo to nothing but an aura, despite Madara supposedly scaling almost 2x above the Juubi.
As for how this makes sense when KCM2 is just the merging of Naruto and Kurama's chakra, it can simply be that them working in sync are greater than the sum of their parts because of the different chakras mixing and amplifying each other, like how the Juubi>>All Bijuu combined, or maybe Naruto's chakra control made him stronger than 50% Kurama on his own. I'm aware that the Bijuu being dumb as said by Deidara isn't true, but that doesn't mean the fact that Jinchuriki>Bijuu isn't. He had to get that idea from somewhere, even if his prejudice gave him the wrong reasoning for why that was. You can argue it's a retcon, but the interpretation that makes two "contradictory" things consistent should be superior to one that simply discards one of them as false.
- All forms of KCM2 Naruto are using Kurama's full power
- Minato and Kushina, who are far weaker than MKCM2 Naruto, intercept and halt 50% Kurama's claw strike
- 50% Kurama shouldn't be too far above SM Naruto's stronger attacks, which are exponentially weaker than the Juubi
- Juubito should be stronger than Hashirama
- Sage Mode shouldn't be less than a 2x multiplier
- 4 Juubidamas demolished Madara's Perfect Susanoo
- Jinchuriki can be stronger than Bijuu
All around, there's just too many things you need to ignore to scale 50% Kurama to MKCM2 Naruto. Even a possibly is quite sus, but a full rating is simply cap. 50% Kurama scaling to initial KCM2 Naruto is far more logical. Before wrapping up with the proposals, I need to talk about how this also upscales KCM Naruto's RS and those that scale to it. This might seem like an issue since KCM Naruto's RS scales to 15.5 GT, but it's not like it's ever stated the trio's combined attack is exactly equal to Nagato's CT, and anyways that's stronger than Pain's. Could also downscale SM Naruto's RS from KCM Naruto's, since a 15.5 GT attack hurting a 21.5 GT character isn't outrageous or anything. Basically the options are downscaling SM Naruto's RS from KCM Naruto's and upscaling KCM Naruto's RS from SM Naruto's. I'm alright with either of them, though personally I think the second is less assumption based.
- 50% Kurama~KCM2 Naruto (21.5 Gigatons)
- Kushina's AP~50% Kurama (21.5 Gigatons)
- WA SM Naruto's Oodama Rasengan Barrage/Rasenshuriken~50% Kurama (21.5 Gigatons)
- KCM Naruto's Rasenshuriken~>SM Naruto's Rasenshuriken (15.5 Gigatons)?
- KCM Naruto's Rasenshuriken (and all other currently 15.5 GT characters)>SM Naruto's Rasenshuriken (21.5 Gigatons)?
- Hashirama/Madara/Kurama>BSM Naruto (100 Teratons)
- Shinsuu Senju~Majestic Attire Susanoo~Madara+Kurama (200 Teratons)
Last edited:
Though I agree this point alone isn't sufficient as an argument, it serves its role as support to other things.
