4th Wall Breaking tries to annex Plot Manip: Plot Manipulation demystification and removal

[QuasiYuri]

Controlling Fate is a lot of the times, much much more specific considering in fiction it's dictated by sentient beings and what their destiny is.

Not necessarily. I don't know why you want to limit it to something when it isn't the case at all.

Rewriting the Plot is a lot more meta than just controlling Fate as it's just having the say on what goes and what doesn't go and a lot of the times is not limited to just certain individuals.

Except fate doesn't have to be limited to certain individual. Concepts such as "everything has a purpose" exist.

Also a lot of so-called "Plot Manipulation" are limited to a certain scale.

Especially when you have characters who blatantly write the entire script of a story which isn't the same abilities as other characters in the story which can grant one's wish or determine someone's fate.

"God's Great Plan" tropes with a meta portrayal? Definitely is just good Fate Manipulation. (There's also apparently "The Darkness" which isn't concerned by said thing?)

Also I litteraly made an entire point regarding characters writing their verse which explains why it doesn't change much.

A lot of stories can make wishes stuff and the "God's Great Plan", thingy cohabit as well.

 

[DontTalkDT]

It really just is verse-specific. Narrativium doesn't hold the same form of importance as Canon does in HS and so on...

Is it, though? I think you are confusing different levels of use with different kinds of plot. Sure, some characters with plot manipulation can't use it to the same extent as other characters, but the same can be said about every reality-warping type of power (i.e. concept, information, causality, law etc.).

Of course not every work necessarily shares the exact same ideas, the same goes for any other power, but there is a wide-spread view of plot that is close enough to make it an ability. Plot as the metafictional representation of reality is widespread and just as much separate and universal then, say, information as fundamental building blocks of reality.

Umineko's plot manip is clearly about fate. That's litteraly the reason why Witches in general have plot to begin with. Hell, kakeras are litteraly crystalized fates.

And Ichiban's part is kinda the entire plot of the last two acts. Needless to say, we've had enough threads on Ichiban not to relaunch that specific debate.

It's definitely Fate Manipulation, and the verse just litteraly consider it to be "the ability to create fate".
Featherine's case is simple to put in fate terms "Lambdadelta is fated to get killed by something, however said something will be unspecified". It's basically the same as prophecy shit you can rewrite. Fate is one of those words that Ryushiki07 regularly switch with "writing" like how he does for "Creators" and "Writers".

Your idea of what fate is supposed to be is terrible and incredibly NLFish. You don't fate manipulate objects into existence from nothing and fate manipulation doesn't explain how an object without defined properties can actually exist. Fate is about predestination, not manifesting reality-warping like effects.

To get this through you stretch the definition of what fate is supposed to be able to do to ridiculous extents. The fact that you need to stretch fate manipulation so incredibly hard to explain how this stuff works, shows well why integrating the power is a terrible idea.

I'm not saying it only is Fate Manipulation, however it is one of the most common ability shown under "Plot Manipulation".

Yeah, not in my experience. In my experience the most common ability is a kind of reality-warping that manipulates the fundamental aspect of a fictional reality that is its plot.

Which would be an exception here. I'm not knowledgeable enough on the Neverending Story to say anything about him, but he apparently constantly writes everything on loop or something?

He doesn't write the verse on a loop (well, he sometimes does, but not always). Not that that is really relevant. Point is that he doesn't break the 4th wall. It's not like he's the only one either.

Ichiban doesn't really break the fourth wall either. It has a metafictional narrative, but it doesn't break the fourth wall i.e. it never displays awareness regarding its fictionality relative to us readers and TLOI is not considered fictional itself.

It is clear from a reader's standpoint. Just like how you can say that it is clear what the Afterlife is. It is the reality after one's life. However it would be ignoring everything that make all these "in-verse plot" so different from each other, the same way all "in-verse Afterlife" aren't the same.

Our current P&A pages are ridiculously bad (which is something currently planned to be greatly improved), and Fate Manipulation is one of them. I wouldn't say we should use the bad quality of one page to justify another's.

And Fate is way more acknowledged than plot by a verse. The only way you can see it that way is by taking your view as a reader of what a plot is in real life, not how the verse treats "plot" as an in-verse element.

You say in-verse, but you generalize that to a lot of verses where it's in my opinion not remotely true. I know so many verses with incredibly vague explanations on what fate is, yet other verses show or tell what plot manipulation is or does better.

And if a verse rewrites a book it will of course expect the reader to know the implications, since that is a thing people understand the consequences of. Your argument is like saying that verses that don't define fire manipulation.

And you have, in my opinion, delivered no proof at all for plot in the verses being that fundamentally different from what a reader might expect it to be. You have shown that plot manipulation can have various applications, but that doesn't mean that the plot being manipulated in itself is anything different.

And your afterlife and hellfire examples are flawed. They are things without real-life equivalence, unlike plot. Nobody in reality would agree what hellfire or the afterlife are, since they aren't things we have in reality. However, we have plot. If you ask someone what a plot is, they will be able to answer and people can agree on the term. And you can take that common understanding of what plot is and apply it to a metafictional setting. Doing so is justified as a setting that establishes that its reality runs on plot is metafictional.

And you haven't yet addressed the fact that a story can't exist without plot, but can exist without fate. From a metafictional perspective, which we have to take when talking about plot, a story without plot can't happen. At least in theory. In practice some fictions will be that way, in the same way some fictions have universes without concepts, but generally speaking plot can be considered a fundamental component of reality.

I also don't believe you can actually revise Fate Manipulation into something more concrete than it is, as that is against its vague nature in most fiction.

Except the Old Man of Wandering Mountain is just one example which is totally different from many other examples, all different from one another. You can just label it as Creation or something similar to the First Box of "The Empty Box and the Zeroth Maria". Or even as a similar case to Beiloune.

Except Creation would be a complete mislabeling as plot manipulation can also erase and manipulate things. And the old man isn't different from other portrayals at its core. It's just a purer case that doesn't add any of the extra stuff you try to reduce the ability to.

Having one of your ability portrayed through a medium such as writing/painting/whatever or have some meta attached to it isn't enough to make it its own separated power, given how it adds nothing.

If by your reasoning anything that is restricted to creating, manipulating or destroying parts of reality add nothing, then we could delete most powers. Plot Manipulation isn't about just being portrayed through writing. Brunhild Schild can modify things via writing and it clearly isn't plot manipulation. Why? Because it isn't manipulating reality as fictional thing.

What it adds is that plot manipulation manipulates reality in a different way and hence has different interactions with other abilities. If you only look at what it does to the area around you, concept manipulation, information manipulation and other forms of reality warping also all seem to do the exact same thing. Difference is that they achieve the same goal using different methods. All of them can turn a stone into a tree, but they do it by manipulating different aspects of the stone. The only practical difference lies in how they interact with other powers and what the abstract thing they manipulate is. And plot is a different abstract aspect. Plot isn't fate, as fate doesn't define reality. Fate might guide the development of the rock, but it isn't involved in its existence. Plot is. Likewise, plot is concepts, laws, information, causality or other abstract component of reality. It's unique in being the metafictional component. The reality a non-reality.

You litteraly have mere comparisons (Instant Death), non-metafictional cases despite being all about being metafictional, and actual metafiction. There's no ground as to what truly defines "Plot Manipulation".

Well, mere examples should possibly not be plot manipulation. Don't blame bad CRTs on the power itself. Non-metafictional cases as such don't exist. Plot is always metafictional, just that it sometimes involves higher planes and sometimes not. The common ground between all plot manipulation is that it is manipulation of a reality as something fictional. It is not unlike applying Dream Manipulation to reality, just like Information Manip (Type 2) could be described as applying Data Manipulaton to reality.

Overall, having something like Plot Manipulation opens the door to re-allowing Hellfire Manipulation, Logic Manipulation (since every fiction has a logic, same way "every fiction has a plot") or the "Afterlife Manipulation" example I've been giving.
All these instances are not related, work on a mechanism that is specific to their verse and has its own inner rules (except when it's litteraly just a comparison, which might be half of the time we label something Plot Manip).

So I stand by my point: Plot Manipulation being a page we created is a mistake in the first place.

I'm actually theoretically much in favour of allowing logic manipulation. I would have created it long ago when I created mathematics manipulation, but as far as I know, barely anyone has actual manipulation of logic as opposed to mathematics or laws. (unless you count not necessarily logic-based paradoxes, maybe) It just didn't have enough users.

I mean, logic is the set of deductive reasoning. It's the power that allows you to make other things transdual, which no other ability does. It enables invoking all kinds of paradoxes, like doing the impossible...

Anyways, that probably isn't the point here. As I said above, I think plot manipulation deals with manipulating a common and separate part of reality. While its effects aren't unique (no abilities effects are truly unique. They could all be emulated by another ability) it has some characteristic applications, such as the creation of objects that hardly make sense in a non-metafictonal sense. Like the mentioned tape that lasts for exactly three rooms, regardless of how much is used, or the object that has no properties as the plot doesn't describe it. Ichiban has something similar with Akuto creating a liquid that is no particular fluid until it is clarified what it is supposed to be. Sure not every character with the ability has these applications. Just like there is no common use for concept manip between all users other than 'can to some degree manipulate concepts'.

And let me say it straight: If you think you resist a plot manipulator rewriting the plot to have you spontaneously melt by a resistance to high temperatures or a resistance to fate manipulation, you're wrong. No basic resistance to those things should remotely cover that.

 

[Promestein]

I strongly agree with DT. These are distinct vectors for abilities that, at times, can be similar, but can result in very different abilities and results that DT himself is detailing now. Just properly explain it on a page, as we're supposed to do, if there's an issue with confusion. A lot of abilities have to be a bit vague in how we define them bevcause fiction can take them all in their own directions - and you know a power can be like... two things, right? Plot Manipulation and Fate Manipulation are not necessarily contradictory and are not the same thing either.

And also, everything is just Reality Warping with extra steps if you think about it. The issue isn't Plot Manipulation being vague, it's Reality Warping literally being the most vague, pointless power on the entire wiki. It's just shorthand for 'weird shit is happening'. May as well roll Law Manipulation and Physics Manipulation into there, because they used to be simply thrown under that umbrella in the past. In fact, a lot of powers used to be Reality Warping, and the last thing I want to do is start throwing shit under that umbrella again.

 

[Theglassman12]

@QuasiYuri I'm not saying I'm wanting to limit it, I'm just saying that's how fate manipulation is.

Again not really, a lot of the times Fate is predominantly focused on a sentient being rather than inanimate objects or meta concepts.

Also no this isn't a "god's great plan". God literally just decided he wanted to write a book, which ended up writing down how the entire events of the show took place. This isn't the same ability as having someone fated to die or lose. And no you saying it's only creation and that's that is completely ignoring the point of plot manipulation, you're not just creating things in a narrative, you're dictating how the narrative goes, whether its where a place will be located by the protagonist, an object will be found by an important figure, etc. That's not something a simple creation feat can accomplish.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Is it, though? I think you are confusing different levels of use with different kinds of plot. Sure, some characters with plot manipulation can't use it to the same extent as other characters, but the same can be said about every reality-warping type of power (i.e. concept, information, causality, law etc.).

Of course not every work necessarily shares the exact same ideas, the same goes for any other power, but there is a wide-spread view of plot that is close enough to make it an ability. Plot as the metafictional representation of reality is widespread and just as much separate and universal then, say, information as fundamental building blocks of reality.

I'm not really talking about the use the characters make of it, but the very fundation of what constitute said "narrative".

And I disagree on the fact that it is close enough to make an ability. As stated in other comments I would put it on the same as structures or concepts such as Aether, Heaven, etc...

There is a common view of them, but there's no way they're becoming abilities here.

Your idea of what fate is supposed to be is terrible and incredibly NLFish. You don't fate manipulate objects into existence from nothing and fate manipulation doesn't explain how an object without defined properties can actually exist. Fate is about predestination, not manifesting reality-warping like effects.

To get this through you stretch the definition of what fate is supposed to be able to do to ridiculous extents. The fact that you need to stretch fate manipulation so incredibly hard to explain how this stuff works, shows well why integrating the power is a terrible idea.

Well, tell Ryushiki07 to stop having terrible ideas and doing NLFs I guess? Because I'm not the one who decided it was the ability to create fate. It's the big guy.

Also I never said Fate Manipulation allows you to create objects? I already said most of them just have Creation. And what affected Lambdadelta isn't any "object", she just lost to something.

I never had to stretch any definition to begin with. I just used what the lore tells us. What's wrong with going by what's the work tells us?
I litteraly didn't have to put any effort to explain it, just make a quick and easy change of perspective. The same can't be said for your explanations of "why Plot Manipulation is important".

Yeah, not in my experience. In my experience the most common ability is a kind of reality-warping that manipulates the fundamental aspect of a fictional reality that is its plot.

So the most common ability to you is RW + 4th Wall Breaking? I mean, it does help my point regardless, but I don't see what's your point.

He doesn't write the verse on a loop (well, he sometimes does, but not always). Not that that is really relevant. Point is that he doesn't break the 4th wall. It's not like he's the only one either.

Ichiban doesn't really break the fourth wall either. It has a metafictional narrative, but it doesn't break the fourth wall i.e. it never displays awareness regarding its fictionality relative to us readers and TLOI is not considered fictional itself.

If your point is that he doesn't break the 4th Wall, then it strengthens the OP's point on that subject. I thought it was about the "writing on loop" thingy.

Mere comparison and "metaphorical" themes are enough to get the ability which is widely defined to be about manipulating your entire verse's plot (a quick look at the other comments show that it's how a part of the people seem to understand it).

You say in-verse, but you generalize that to a lot of verses where it's in my opinion not remotely true. I know so many verses with incredibly vague explanations on what fate is, yet other verses show or tell what plot manipulation is or does better.

And if a verse rewrites a book it will of course expect the reader to know the implications, since that is a thing people understand the consequences of. Your argument is like saying that verses that don't define fire manipulation.

If a verse sends a character to the Afterlife it will expect the reader to know the implications. Does it change my point on the fact that each have their own in-verse specifics? Not at all.

And you have, in my opinion, delivered no proof at all for plot in the verses being that fundamentally different from what a reader might expect it to be. You have shown that plot manipulation can have various applications, but that doesn't mean that the plot being manipulated in itself is anything different.

I actually didn't talk about its applications for anything but the "writing the world" section. I've shown that the very "narrative element" that is being manipulated is definitely not the same thing from verses to verses; unless every verse have Discworld's Narrativium, SCP's classifications of beings, or Homestuck's Canonicity stuff.

And your afterlife and hellfire examples are flawed. They are things without real-life equivalence, unlike plot. Nobody in reality would agree what hellfire or the afterlife are, since they aren't things we have in reality. However, we have plot. If you ask someone what a plot is, they will be able to answer and people can agree on the term. And you can take that common understanding of what plot is and apply it to a metafictional setting. Doing so is justified as a setting that establishes that its reality runs on plot is metafictional..

If you ask what the Afterlife is in the street, I'm sure I would get as many similar answers as you would for asking "what makes up a narrative". We would get a common basis, but things would differ from here.

And while it is called "Plot Manipulation", the ability is definitely "whatever you have that is linked to the 4th Wall" Manipulation. The working of each "plot" isn't the same at all, and that is a fact you can easily see for yourself by taking the verses which have some form of "narrative element" as part of their in-verse cosmology.

And you haven't yet addressed the fact that a story can't exist without plot, but can exist without fate. From a metafictional perspective, which we have to take when talking about plot, a story without plot can't happen. At least in theory. In practice some fictions will be that way, in the same way some fictions have universes without concepts, but generally speaking plot can be considered a fundamental component of reality.

I also don't believe you can actually revise Fate Manipulation into something more concrete than it is, as that is against its vague nature in most fiction.

Because it's not something I have to address? A story without plot can't happen from a real life perspective. But you have many beings who aren't following the script or whatev in fiction; and they are no different from beings freed from fate in a non-metafictional setting for instance.

Also you just claimed that it was from a "metafictional perspective", right? So the verse has to acknowledge that it has a plot in-verse, otherwise the story is going on without the need-for an in-verse plot.
How is that any different from a verse having to acknowledge the presence of fate?

And please, don't feed me that you actually believe our P&A profiles are not ridiculously bad. Blaming fiction rather than the lack of care isn't helping.

Except Creation would be a complete mislabeling as plot manipulation can also erase and manipulate things. And the old man isn't different from other portrayals at its core. It's just a purer case that doesn't add any of the extra stuff you try to reduce the ability to.

If a character has shown to erase things, they get EE, not Plot Manipulation. And the only difference I see is that it's a character I can't find anything on, so I can't make any argument based on it. SCP was pretty clear in its portrayal and yet perfectly explainable.

If by your reasoning anything that is restricted to creating, manipulating or destroying parts of reality add nothing, then we could delete most powers. Plot Manipulation isn't about just being portrayed through writing. Brunhild Schild can modify things via writing and it clearly isn't plot manipulation. Why? Because it isn't manipulating reality as fictional thing.

My reasonning is that forcing a heavy double-standard for the sake of tradition adds nothing.

Brunhild's case just shows that the wiki isn't consistent in what qualifies for Plot Manipulation. And even then you just flat out confirmed that it is merely "manipulating reality as [aka with a comparison to] fictional thing".

What it adds is that plot manipulation manipulates reality in a different way and hence has different interactions with other abilities. If you only look at what it does to the area around you, concept manipulation, information manipulation and other forms of reality warping also all seem to do the exact same thing. Difference is that they achieve the same goal using different methods. All of them can turn a stone into a tree, but they do it by manipulating different aspects of the stone. The only practical difference lies in how they interact with other powers and what the abstract thing they manipulate is. And plot is a different abstract aspect. Plot isn't fate, as fate doesn't define reality. Fate might guide the development of the rock, but it isn't involved in its existence. Plot is. Likewise, plot is concepts, laws, information, causality or other abstract component of reality. It's unique in being the metafictional component. The reality a non-reality.

Plot is by definition: "the main events of a play, novel, film, or similar work, devised and presented by the writer as an interrelated sequence." Everything you've been saying is just what's sometimes encompassed by the in-verse element that stands for "whatever I call the in-verse 4th Wall".

In fact, even this "Narrative-like" thing rarely extends to the entire verse, which is in clear contradiction with it being the deepest shit.

Well, mere examples should possibly not be plot manipulation. Don't blame bad CRTs on the power itself. Non-metafictional cases as such don't exist. Plot is always metafictional, just that it sometimes involves higher planes and sometimes not. The common ground between all plot manipulation is that it is manipulation of a reality as something fictional. It is not unlike applying Dream Manipulation to reality, just like Information Manip (Type 2) could be described as applying Data Manipulaton to reality.

Are they bad CRTs, or is it the power that is badly designed and shouldn't be? That's the whole thing the OP has developped on.

Also you litteraly are making a comparison once again. You say it is manipulating reality as if it was fictional; proving it is a matter of portrayal.

I'm actually theoretically much in favour of allowing logic manipulation. I would have created it long ago when I created mathematics manipulation, but as far as I know, barely anyone has actual manipulation of logic as opposed to mathematics or laws. (unless you count not necessarily logic-based paradoxes, maybe) It just didn't have enough users.

Eh. Sounds like we're opposed in our opinion on the wiki policies in general then.

Anyways, that probably isn't the point here. As I said above, I think plot manipulation deals with manipulating a common and separate part of reality. While its effects aren't unique (no abilities effects are truly unique. They could all be emulated by another ability) it has some characteristic applications, such as the creation of objects that hardly make sense in a non-metafictonal sense. Like the mentioned tape that lasts for exactly three rooms, regardless of how much is used, or the object that has no properties as the plot doesn't describe it. Ichiban has something similar with Akuto creating a liquid that is no particular fluid until it is clarified what it is supposed to be. Sure not every character with the ability has these applications. Just like there is no common use for concept manip between all users other than 'can to some degree manipulate concepts'.

Wait. You think something with no properties unless clarified can't be anything but Plot Manipulation? I'm sure you would have lot of fun with quantum-based stories.
Also Idk what you mean by "the mentionned tape that lasts for exactly three rooms".

Regardless, what you've said still doesn't answer one important thing: which is that no fiction have the same idea of what's the "in-verse Narrative verse" or of how it works.
And you pretty much constantly used a comparison to explain to me what Plot Manipulation was meant to be, which is a problem pointed out since the very beginning.

And let me say it straight: If you think you resist a plot manipulator rewriting the plot to have you spontaneously melt by a resistance to high temperatures or a resistance to fate manipulation, you're wrong. No basic resistance to those things should remotely cover that.

I think you don't need to invent stuff like "Resistance to Plot Manipulation" to resist getting melted by something. In fact this entire sentence embodies the entire "mystification" of Plot Manipulation I'm criticizing.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I strongly agree with DT. These are distinct vectors for abilities that, at times, can be similar, but can result in very different abilities and results that DT himself is detailing now. Just properly explain it on a page, as we're supposed to do, if there's an issue with confusion. A lot of abilities have to be a bit vague in how we define them bevcause fiction can take them all in their own directions - and you know a power can be like... two things, right? Plot Manipulation and Fate Manipulation are not necessarily contradictory and are not the same thing either.

A power can be two things yes. However that's not the case here.

And also, everything is just Reality Warping with extra steps if you think about it. The issue isn't Plot Manipulation being vague, it's Reality Warping literally being the most vague, pointless power on the entire wiki. It's just shorthand for 'weird shit is happening'. May as well roll Law Manipulation and Physics Manipulation into there, because they used to be simply thrown under that umbrella in the past. In fact, a lot of powers used to be Reality Warping, and the last thing I want to do is start throwing shit under that umbrella again.

Well, I do agree that Reality Warping is pointless. But then how is its cousin, "weird meta shit is happening" not just as worseless?

Plot Manipulation is just the exact same umbrella term with a different color that is 4th Wall Breaking/Metafictional comment/Comparison to fiction.

 

[Promestein]

I think you don't need to invent stuff like "Resistance to Plot Manipulation" to resist getting melted by something. In fact this entire sentence embodies the entire "mystification" of Plot Manipulation I'm criticizing.

Yeah, because being melted is the same as having the narrative rewritten to force you to melt. At this point, if this is the arguments you're making, you're just blatantly misrepresenting DT.

Wait. You think something with no properties unless clarified can't be anything but Plot Manipulation? I'm sure you would have lot of fun with quantum-based stories.

This too. He's talking about specific examples of ability applications, where someone uses Plot Manipulation to create objects without any narrative properties or traits, yet you just take it in this completely different direction based on nothing.

Plot Manipulation is much more specific than Reality Warping. Sure, it's still a little vague and can go in a lot of directions, but we know the vector and with specific characters we can know the result. That's enough for me to give it space to stand on its own.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Yeah, because being melted is the same as having the narrative rewritten to force you to melt. At this point, if this is the arguments you're making, you're just blatantly misrepresenting DT.

Being melted is the result of the ability, how is it misrepresenting? I don't see how it is any stronger than implanting a law that makes you melt, infuse you with the concept of melting, makes you melt through a placebo effect etc...

This too. He's talking about specific examples of ability applications, where someone uses Plot Manipulation to create objects without any narrative properties or traits, yet you just take it in this completely different direction based on nothing.

I just take it the way he uses it. He says Plot Manipulation do things only it can do, but I fail to see it.

Also if we had to be talking about taking a completely different direction, I litteraly have to mostly deal with that rn. One of the section had me talk about a particular point related to creating, and I get answers like "but you can also do EE". Yeah, great. Except it's not answering the point.

 

[QuasiYuri]

@QuasiYuri I'm not saying I'm wanting to limit it, I'm just saying that's how fate manipulation is.
Again not really, a lot of the times Fate is predominantly focused on a sentient being rather than inanimate objects or meta concepts.

Well, I don't really care about how character are using their control. But Fate applies to more than just sentient beings, although it can be focused on them. That's true for other powers as well.

Also no this isn't a "god's great plan". God literally just decided he wanted to write a book, which ended up writing down how the entire events of the show took place. This isn't the same ability as having someone fated to die or lose. And no you saying it's only creation and that's that is completely ignoring the point of plot manipulation, you're not just creating things in a narrative, you're dictating how the narrative goes, whether its where a place will be located by the protagonist, an object will be found by an important figure, etc. That's not something a simple creation feat can accomplish.

Why are you talking about Creation when I litteraly said this feat was good Fate Manipulation?

"dictating how the narrative goes, whether its where a place will be located by the protagonist, an object will be found by an important figure," is your everyday prophecy. Fate strikes again.

Also what you just described is exactly what the "Gods's Great Plan" trope is all about. Sure, you could maybe remove the "Great" part and say it's just casual and not an important thing, but it's the same otherwise.

 

[Promestein]

Being melted is the result of the ability, how is it misrepresenting? I don't see how it is any stronger than implanting a law that makes you melt, infuse you with the concept of melting, makes you melt through a placebo effect etc...

It isn't necessarily any stronger, but we don't smack all those abilities into Reality Warping either, do we?

 

[QuasiYuri]

It isn't necessarily any stronger, but we don't smack all those abilities into Reality Warping either, do we?

When did I talk about smacking stuff into Reality Warping or a single category? The entire OP is against this practice, which is part of why this thread even exist.

 

[Promestein]

You want to smack it under Fate Manipulation despite the fact that it's a different ability, or just throw it out into some other vaguer bullshit.

 

[QuasiYuri]

You want to smack it under Fate Manipulation despite the fact that it's a different ability, or just throw it out into some other vaguer bullshit.

I don't. Is actually reading the opposition's explanations that hard these days?

Every application obviously needs to be covered by the appropriate power. Fate Manipulation just happen to be one of them, and even the one in some verse's case (ex: Instant Death). But there's obviously EE, Creation, Resurrection, etc...

In fact, in term of "smacking things under an ability", Plot Manipulation is king.
It is just used as a "easy peasy let's fall under itzy". It is no different from RW, with the only new criteria being "be portrayed similarly to some fiction stuff" or "don't forget to add 4th Wall Breaking while doing it".

You're against having umbrella stuff or smacking powers, but you defend a power that primarly exist as a way to do exactly that.

 

[Promestein]

It's just... not, though. It's a power that can do a lot, and as I already said, it's a lot more specific than RW. We know the vector and the characters demonstrate the results, we shouldn't just also divide everything up into sub abilities rather than properly demonstrating important vectors such as Plot Manipulation, because resisting whatever is different than resisting narrative bullshit.

 

[QuasiYuri]

It's just... not, though. It's a power that can do a lot, and as I already said, it's a lot more specific than RW. We know the vector and the characters demonstrate the results, we shouldn't just also divide everything up into sub abilities rather than properly demonstrating important vectors such as Plot Manipulation, because resisting whatever is different than resisting narrative bullshit.

Except the specifics just are a matter of portrayal. I wouldn't call that being "more specific".

It shouldn't be considered a vector to begin with either, the same way we don't treat 4th Wall Based abilities as super overpowered due to "4th Wall being the vector".

That's what the second part of the OP is basically trying to prove.

 

[Promestein]

All abilities are just a matter of portrayal, if we're gonna get this anal about it we should just start splitting up a bunch of other shit too. I'm not even arguing for Plot Manipulation being "super overpowered", just that it has reason to exist on its own on its own merits.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I'm not even arguing for Plot Manipulation being "super overpowered", just that it has reason to exist on its own on its own merits.

Same here. There is no universal rule saying that plot has a higher level of abstractness than information, causality or concepts. But it's still something of a separate nature IMO.

 

[Theglassman12]

@QuasiYuri I’d love to see examples of Fate hax being able to target non sentient beings and not the beings who are affected by fate.

your OP says that writing the world is just creation and nothing else, I’m arguing that it’s not just creation as that’s a very broad and misrepresented way of describing plot manipulation.

 

[Vietthai96]

Sorry for commenting on a staff thread. But while i can understand QuasiYuri way of thinking, i heavily disagree with merging Plot to Fate.

1. Plot by all mean is the entire plot/narrative, which itself encompassing not only fate but also causality. Fate alone do not dictated how something came into existence, it is the role of causality, but causality do not explain the destiny, the end of something, it is the role of fate to dictate their destinies. However, narrative/plot explained and dictated all, it encompassing both the reason on how something came into existent and how it will end. You can't manipulating the fate of something that not even exist yet

2. Yeah, some Plot user could be limited in their ability, thus they could either only manipulating the fate or causality of something via plot, but that is the limit of the character we need to find out, but Plot Manipulation as a whole still unchanged. If we merge Plot and Fate with the mindset that Plot is just Fate with extra step or somthing like that, then we too should merge Fate with Probability Manip due to Fate is Probability on a massive steroid, or just merge all if them under Reality Warping like Promestein said and call it a day. Or even better, merge Plot Manipulation with Subject Reality because from the point of view, Plot Manip is projecting your "reality" into actual reality

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Yea, i also disagree with removing Plot Manipulation for the reasons DontTalk and Prom gave.

 

[Elizhaa]

Yea, i also disagree with removing Plot Manipulation for the reasons DontTalk and Prom gave.

I shared similar thoughts.

 

[KLOL506]

Yea, i also disagree with removing Plot Manipulation for the reasons DontTalk and Prom gave.

Same.

 

[Breakdown]

Alright, time to answer (will make a second comment for Doge)

I would say it's not the case at all. Here there's no difference in principle, only in aesthetic.

Take the concept of Ether/Aether. It's pretty common in fiction, and its basis as an energy at the origin of stuff is often shared. However we wouldn't have an "Aether Manipulation" page.

The reason is that while they aren't 100% different; every verse has its own take on it and what you can do with that. And that is in spite of Ether having a clear definition.

Plot Manipulation isn't changing anything; it's just a matter of portrayal/aesthetic; which is even more obvious when you take the fact that any ability that has been compared to a story element grants you the power.


I never said it was just fate. What you've said is already answered in the "Equivalence" point as well. I could say the same for my previous Aether example or my other Afterlife and Hellfire example.

Plot Manipulation obviously isn't manipulating the actual plot of a story, like how 4th Wall Breaking isn't real. We're just giving it to any ability that has a fiction comparison.

Answered in the "Comparison" point.

From their perspective, our little tale is worth little more than a single book, if that."
From the theatergoer's perspective, our individual lives are hardly worth anything at all.

What you're talking about isn't the cosmological working of the verse; which is stated to run on fate in the story part that litteraly gives us the biggest cosmology elements (
You're only pointing the visual representation of it; not an actual different thing. Which is also why Ryushiki07 often balances between "Creator" and "Writer" as names.

Oh, and Battler calls all of Umineko (in-verse Umineko) "fate" when he explains to Ange how her going through the door would end the tale.

You're abusing context. Ange going through the door would end the tale/game he created for her, which is most of Umineko episode 8.

Umineko stuff

Umineko stuff album hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

Going by what you say, Ange going through those doors would have ended the entire setting, which obviously did not happen and is absurd to even ponder. This makes less sense than saying small bombs are responsible.

I also can't quite but feel that it's a tiny bit biased and hypocritical for you to use statements from Battler (An OOC one at that) and Lambdadelta which seemingly support your stance, but disregard any lore and statements that don't without any real argument against them.

There are also verses which have both Plot Manipulation and Fate Manipulation used by characters as blatantly different abilities, like Re:Creators and Touhou. "They just manipulate fate." is wrong because that directly contradicts canon statements and showings.

Plot Manipulation is a very broad and weird power which is basically Reality Warping but Meta, however, it's common in fiction and its portrayal of being meta Reality Warping is pretty consistent.

This contrasts your point about why we don't have Ether/Aether Manipulation. Aether is rarely consistent across verses because either they're using the scientific definition, the mythological definition, or the occultic definitions, or a mixture. The scientific definition is too long to elaborate here. The mythological definition is that Aether is a Greek Primal Entity of the sky. The occultic definitions either have Aether as the quintessential element of the Gods, space, alternate planes, darkness, spirit, often a mixture and sometimes more. I think you can see why almost nobody agrees on what it is. Your point about Aether Manipulation is wrong because Plot Manipulation is not a nebulous concept that changes every different verse.

A play doesn't exist without the events of the plot either, so admitting that it's meta just shoots out even more legs from your argument.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Alright, got tired of it. Reached my quota of "big comment to answer".
If the examples given across the thread look like something consistent from verse to verse and not a heavy double-standard for a P&A page that shouldn't be to you, then I've got both nothing to add.

Though on the topic of Fate and Umineko, since it doesn't make me repeat myself:

1) @Theglassman12 You can litteraly see at least 5 easy examples by litteraly googling the word "Fate"

2)@Breakdown I never talked about the entire setting, just the in-verse "Umineko".

 

[Antvasima]

Just a note that I also strongly agree with DontTalk and Promestein. Thank you for helping out to them and Glassman, and sorry about not being able to argue better than I did.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm still in favor of Yuri's suggestion. Plot Manip as we have it is misleading to many, and it's a substantially more beneficial change than the majority suggested on this site.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, improving the text definitions in the page for greater clarity is obviously fine.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I generally agree with DontTalkDT's points. To avoid another wall of text exchange, I'll just say that Plot Manipulation is a unique mechanic with specific application and common enough that should be its own page. Unlike some... other powers on the wiki, this doesn't deserve deletion.

 

[Promestein]

We can just revise the page and make it more than three sentences long.

 

[Antvasima]

We can just revise the page and make it more than three sentences long.

Yes, I think so as well.

Would you and DontTalk be willing to handle it?

 

[QuasiYuri]

Better than nothing.

Maybe stop limiting it to 4th Wall (since one of the main arguments from the opposition was some "non-4th wall cases") while also warning against metaphors, comparison and straight up bad reasons would be a good start.

 

[Vietthai96]

I'm freaking agree with more detailed and longer description

 

[Promestein]

We're all in freaking agreement.

 

[DaReaperMan]

That we freaking are with that currently freaking bad page!

 

[N_Kardashev]

plot =/= fate/destiny fra

 

[Vietthai96]

plot =/= fate/destiny fra

No, this is actually wrong, plot doesn't =/= fate. It is depend on the perspective. The thing is, plot encompassing both fate and causality, it have larger, bigger effect, capability compare to both fate, probability and causality. And it is noteworthy enough to have it own page

 

[Antvasima]

We're all in freaking agreement.

So would you or somebody else here be willing to provide a draft for a new text for the Plot Manipulation page please?

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

So would you or somebody else here be willing to provide a draft for a new text for the Plot Manipulation page please?

@QuasiYuri @Ogbunabali @Qawsedf234 @Damage3245 @LordGriffin1000 @Sir_Ovens @Theglassman12 @Mr._Bambu @Eficiente @Confluctor @Planck69 @Celestial_Pegasus @Elizhaa @KLOL506

 

[KLOL506]

I'm prolly not the best guy for this job. For the draft, I mean.