4th Raikage bumped to MHS+

[TheFinalOrder]

A should be bumped to MHS+, more specifically, 440,000m/s as this is the wiki's accepted speed for Lightning related speed feats.

Reasoning:

• A's top speed had him portrayed as a Bolt of lightning. The Author's intent is clear here.

This would scale to the following...

*Base Minato

*KCM Naruto

*EMS Madara

*MS Sasuke (Possibly - Reacted to A's Leg Drop, but it's debatable if speed was being used, otherwise, Gaara's sand > Raikage).

Other characters scale from these characters.

 

[Golden_Void]

Not sure if I like this reasoning, as it seems speculative. For this reasoning, one can also suggest Naruto vs Toneri was a light speed battle, as they were depicted as flowing beams of light in some combat scenes.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Not sure if I like this reasoning, as it seems speculative. For this reasoning, one can also suggest Naruto vs Toneri was a light speed battle, as they were depicted as flowing beams of light in some combat scenes.

I don't think that's a fair comparison. Naruto and Toneri were both cloaked in glowing chakra and the scene was pulled back away from the characters. In this scan, we the audience are close enough to be able to distinguish the characters and in similar shots from Toneri v Naruto, we see the characters.

The portrayal and intent for both are different, not comparable. That's like, saying Goku vs Beerus was A LS battle just because they had their aura's flared up.

Raikage is a bigger guy than Minato and still portrayed as a bolt of lightning. A better comparison would've been Sasuke vs Kinshiki, but both are faster than the accepted Lightning Speed on the Wiki, so their feats take priority.

 

[RageComment]

Aren't Jounin already Lightning speed? Young Kakashi was able to cut a lightning bolt with chidori/raikiri, and Minato was faster than him. Later Sasuke used Kirin, which amplifed Natural Lightning with Chakra to attack Itachi who could at least react to it enough to summon his Susanoo. By Scaling A should definitely be greater than Lightning, if not the entire cast by that point?

 

[Golden_Void]

Maybe because he literally encased in lightning armor, and that's how he's depicted. At any rate, with less reachy arguments, Kakashi is a lightning timer, hence the name of his ability lightning blade. Itachi is also a lightning timer.

However there's a clear distinction between having lightning reactions, and lightning speed.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@UMR

He's cloaked in lightning armor and has never been portrayed as Lightning outside of v2 armor. 99% of the time he just disappear and reappears, so using the cloaked in lightning armor argument isn't a valid argument.

That's a hasty generalization. This isn't reaching either. Reaching would be me saying: "Raikage is MHS+ because he blitzed Sasuke, totatally escaping his perception and Sasuke has better perception than Itachi because Itachi was nearly blind with his MS".

We have a statement saying it's his fastest attack, which is just him going V2 and running at his opponent, and he's portrayed as a Bolt of Lightning. From a literary standpoint, that's the author implying he's as fast as Lightning. Like i said, the authors intent is clear. There is a difference than simply being flashy.

 

[Golden_Void]

"He's cloaked in lightning armor and has never been portrayed as Lightning outside of v2 armor. 99% of the time he just disappear and reappears, so using the cloaked in lightning armor argument isn't a valid argument."

Outlier: an observation that is well outside of the expected range of values in a study or experiment, and which is often discarded from the data set.

Also I'm pretty sure he only has one lightning armor , not two.

What's a hasty generalization? And I'd be more inclined to believe that over this honestly. You're better off waiting for the rest of the revisions to see what adds up.

 

[Reppuzan]

MHS Gunpla When?

Sarcasm aside, I don't think this is valid reasoning.

To put it bluntly, we don't care much about Author Intent much of the time. Feats are feats and calcs are calcs. The Raikage doesn't turn into a bolt of lightning when he uses his Lightning Armor, he just sheathes himself in it. To call a visual effect evidence of him being as fast as lightning when it's explicitly known that he doesn't turn into lightning is extreme extrapolation.

 

[RageComment]

Is there a place, revisions are being discussed? I am curious to see what speeds they have characters at throughout the series. Because Part I Kakashi is listed as Supersonic+ yet at that point he was already a lightning timer. So the profile is a bit wrong there.

 

[Golden_Void]

We don't have a kid kakashi profile, which sucks.

We do have confirmation that he's a lightning timer.

Since he got the name from when he cut lightning, that means Kakashi pre-sharingan was a lightning timer, which would scale to arguably a lot of people from him as a kid and an adult. But we don't know exactly how he cut the lightning, but assuming he starts in the standard chidori crouchng pose, he'd have MHS reactions.

 

[RageComment]

Give Kakashi a key on his profile for his kid version?

 

[Ryop]

I doubt Kakashi is MHS or lightning timer.. this clearly an outlier or something Kishi just worte in order to make Kakashi "look cool",that contrast a lot of feats in the seires.. Base sasuke could keep up with Shadow clone Zabuza(who stated to be 10% of real Zabuza) and Haku and then in the next arcs even sharingan Sasuke coundn't keep up with base Lee's speed(with weights on his legs) and Lee was slower than sound

 

[LordGriffin1000]

When did Pre Sharingan Kakashi cut a lightning bolt? It was the Visitor when it was unveiled when he was a kid, then as an adult Guy stated in the past Kakashi cut a lightning bolt. That's why as an adult Kakashi calls it the Lightning Blade.

I'm likely wrong though as I usually get Naruto history mixed so if someone would be kind enough to post the scan of Kakashi pre Sharigan calling it Lightning Blade that would be great.

Also I agree with Reppuzan and UMR about the thread topic.

 

[Golden_Void]

Kakashi was way more elite than kid Sasuke was, plus he did train with Minato (The God of Speed), so it's likely not an outlier as much as it is the plot taking away from his abilities. He's even developed the MS in his teen years, which is another boost.

 

[RageComment]

@Ryop

Funny how you say "Stated" in one sentence while denying another statement as an outlier in the one just before that.

However, Kakashi being a lightning timer is pretty backed up with a lot of evidence later in the series. Namely the Akatsuki. Itachi could time lightning and showed it in an actual fight. And this was when he was weakened and sick, half-blind and dying.

While Itachi is fast the other Akatsuki are at least relative to this really weakened version, and Kakashi traded blows with several of these beings.

Even in Part I, Kakashi was ready to face Itachi and Kisame, though he'd obviously lose (not counting that he did lose via Tsukuyomi). He wasn't massively blitz'd by them.

 

[Ryop]

Itachi didn't react to Kirin,he only was able to think to active his susanoo before the lightning strike him,he dont have MHS+ Reaction

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Kakashi was way more elite than kid Sasuke was, plus he did train with Minato (The God of Speed), so it's likely not an outlier as much as it is the plot taking away from his abilities. He's even developed the MS in his teen years, which is another boost.

What... Tenten was trained by Guy and she's not fast or a expert taijustu user like Rock Lee so just because Kakashi was trained by Minato doesn't mean he is going to be extra fast. Minato was named the Yellow Flash of The Leaf because of the Flying Thunder God, other than that he only had good reflexs.

Also when did it say Kakashi had MS as a teenager?

 

[Golden_Void]

Kakashi feat

@Rage

Who are you talking about?

 

[RageComment]

@Unite My Rice

Ryop.

I didn't notice a lot of folks had commented in between me refreshing the page.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

@Griffin

I think he unlocked it after he stabbed Rin mistakenly.

 

[RageComment]

Itachi didn't react to Kirin,he only was able to think to active his susanoo before the lightning strike him,he dont have MHS+ Reaction

Being able to think and activate an ability... is reactions I am pretty sure.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

1.) He has 2 levels of his Raiton Armor.

2.)I don't think we'll be alive by 2099

Since authors portrayal means nothing, let's consider something else.

So, to start, Itachi reacted to Kirin when he was near blind. How Blind was Itachi? Well, at the start of the fight, This was Itachi's vision:




Through the course of the fight, Itachi used both Tsukiyomi and Amaturatsu, and spammed the latter. Note, Sasuke using Amaturatsu the first time he used MS started affecting his vision soon after:




Now, the question is, how blind was Itachi? Well, we know Itachi was blind to the point that using Susanoo once to block Kirin made him go completely blind:




So, Itachi was extremely blind when blocking Kirin. This is to give you an example of how Bad Sasuke's vision deteriorated by time he faced Kakashi:




Sasuke's vision when facing Raikage was infinitely better than this. And thus his perception would've been better than that of Itachi's MS which was this bad or worse. Now, given this is the case, when Sasuke activates MS against Raikage, he dodges Amaturatsu then appears behind Sasuke to which the portrayal of the scene and Karin's Statement, strongly imply Sasuke lost track of Raikage:







Thus, scaling MS Sasuke with moderately blind symtoms to MS Itachi whose eyesight was shot, Raikage's speed would be >= to Kirin, or 440000m/s.

 

[Ryop]

^Itachi didn't react to Kirin,reaction=make a physical movement,Itachi only was able to perceive it,and also sasuke was able to perceive A's speed,he not sacle from the Kirin

 

[Amexim]

I mean, I know the databook is full of hyperbole, but is it really that bad to assume that because he's;

The Lightning Shadow The fastest Ninja (Next to Minato) And literally cloaked in Lightning that is supposed to increase his reactions and all other physical traits involving speed

That the databook might be right about this AT LEAST? It doesn't seem like hyperbole, fits with calcs (they were already MHS), fits author intent (as it's stated that he's Lightning speed in the Databooks)... At this point, we'd be cutting off our noses to spite our face just because the Databooks overhype a lot. Why not take the shit that fits and discard the obvious inconsistencies, or give it a "possibly" in front of it if it bothers you that much.

 

[Golden_Void]

What... Tenten was trained by Guy and she's not fast or a expert taijustu user like Rock Lee so just because Kakashi was trained by Minato doesn't mean he is going to be extra fast. Minato was named the Yellow Flash of The Leaf because of the Flying Thunder God, other than that he only had good reflexs.

Also when did it say Kakashi had MS as a teenager?

I think it was a game clip (so idk about that) where Kakashi fought Minato, but Minato basically said he didn't know what he'd do without FTG, which is a testament to Kakashi's speed and strategy.

Also, when Kakashi killed Rin, he and Obito awakened MS at the same time.

 

[Amexim]

And, yeah, if he saw Kirin coming and thought... Itachi is MHS+ reactions. Stop.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

@Griffin

I think he unlocked it after he stabbed Rin mistakenly.

Oh thanks.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

^Itachi didn't react to Kirin,reaction=make a physical movement,Itachi only was able to perceive it,and also sasuke was able to perceive A's speed,he not sacle from the Kiri

• Sasuke's Perception > Itachi's Perception > Kirin

• Manga suggests Sasuke couldn't Perceive Raikage.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Remember guys, this thread is focused on Ay.

The Itachi and Kirin thing was already discussed before so please don't bring that up again.

 

[Ryop]

And, yeah, if he saw Kirin coming and thought... Itachi is MHS+ reactions. Stop.

No that not reaction,that literally not the definition of reaction

 

[DodoNova2]

still problems with Naruto...

 

[LordGriffin1000]

still problems with Naruto...

You know it.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

@TheFinalOrder and Ryop

Please notice stop discussing Kirin.

@UMR

Alright thanks.

 

[Ryop]

Sasuke's Perception > Itachi's Perception > Kiri

• Manga suggests Sasuke couldn't Perceive Raikage.

Sasuke could perceive A all the time during their whole fight,if not then A was just blitz him and one shot. he was able to perceive and activate his Amaterasu before A was able to attack him as seen in the scan you sent,and agai in the next chapter,he is not sacle from the Kirin

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@TheFinalOrder and Ryop
Please stop discussing Kirin.

I'm not discussing Kirin. I'm discussing Itachi and Sasuke's perception and how it relates to Raikage being >= Kirin's speed due to Raikage's feat. He's the one making a fuss.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

At any rate, @UMR, you said you're more inclined to believe the Raikage/Sasuke stuff, so I posted it above.

Your thoughts?

 

[Reppuzan]

@TFO

1) Neither of those involve him turning into lightning.

2) None of your posted scans involve Kirin.

 

[Golden_Void]

No prob. Also since the OP was discussed already, this thread might get erased soon as we've long since derailed it.

As far as the Sasuke/Raikage stuff, I don't see us using blindness as a scale for speed either. As I said, we're better off waiting for the revisions.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Sigh...

First, @Reppuzan:

1.)The Raikage being portrayed as Lightning in his v2 rairon armor is done. Not accepted.

2.)UMR said in his...2nd response I believe, that he'd be more inclined to believe Raikage scaling to Kirin than simply portrayed as Lightning while moving.

My scans show:

*Itachi's level of eyesight Before the battle and after going 100% blind from blocking Kirin.

*The affects of using MS abilities on Eyesight and perception through Sasuke's Usage.

*Raikage being implied to have escaped Sasuke's perception which at that time, was better than Itachi's who reacted to Kirin.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

@TheFinalOrder

What I meant was that the argument about Itachi reacting to Kirin has already been brought up in the past.

Sorry for not being clear.