Sippin' That Bijūice A lil Extra rn

[UchihaSlayer96]

Out of curiosity what happens with Naruto's initial Rasenshuriken? Is it Bijuu level for nearly one shotting Kakuzu or is it just Dura Neg?

Whether Kakuzu gets upgraded or not won't really affect the FRS. It'll still be treated as dura neg either way.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Uhhh, what?

Kakashi specifically tried to pierce through it fully but the Deva Path pushed him away first.

You're referring to this? I mean, it just looks like he's trading blows with the V2s, rather than try to stab through them. His Raiton has already shown the ability to easily cut through the V2s when he really wants to go for that.

Uh, no, he very clearly tried to pierce them here.

That means the arms are less durable than the torso.

Uhhh, I mean, Kakashi matched his Ninjutsu. And anyway, "could" doesn't mean that it is. His Ninjutsu has no Bijū level feats, so there's no real reason to assume it is.
Ngl, I'm a bit confused by this point.

Matched it in P1. There's several years between P1 and P2, it doesn't rlly make sense to assume Kisame stayed static.

His Shark bomb temporarily matched Hirudora which would probably be Bijuu level or above if calced.

Well, that never happened in the manga, so eh.

Generations still canon

Whether Kakuzu gets upgraded or not won't really affect the FRS. It'll still be treated as dura neg either way.

It clearly caused external bleeding.
https://****************/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_61ca6ef79253a/89d50e257ec1f4366871064eaeb6d39d/NARUTO%E2%80%94%E3%83%8A%E3%83%AB%E3%83%88%E2%80%94-%E3%82%AB%E3%83%A9%E3%83%BC%E7%89%88-38---p041-%5BaKraa%5D.png

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Didn't uh US69 say to talk about the scaling not here

 

[BlackeJan]

Quite sad im just finding out about this thread

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Generations still canon

But the scene didn't happen in the manga (primary canon) so it can't be used, since we saw what really happened.

 

[Theendzero13]

By the way , since we are scaling rasa's sand to shukaky are we going to be scale the third kazekage sand to it as well ?

 

[LordTracer]

5) It is extremely discouraged to discuss other characters or power-scaling that is unrelated to the characters in the proposal.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

By the way , since we are scaling rasa's sand to shukaky are we going to be scale the third kazekage sand to it as well ?

This well be discussed in a future thread.

 

[Theendzero13]

Sorry , just getting too anxious

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Didn't uh US69 say to talk about the scaling not here

I'm just pointing out disagreements with stuff directly said in the OP.

But the scene didn't happen in the manga (primary canon) so it can't be used, since we saw what really happened.

It's just an extension of the fight. It doesn't contradict the main story beats. Anyways, Kishimoto approved it, so that means he thinks the feats performed in the cutscene are valid.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'm just pointing out disagreements with stuff directly said in the OP.

It's just an extension of the fight. It doesn't contradict the main story beats. Anyways, Kishimoto approved it, so that means he thinks the feats performed in the cutscene are valid.

No, it being an extension means nothing since we already have what happened in the primary canon. It's very existence is a contradiction the what actually happened in the manga.

Regardless, I'm not going to keep talking about it since it's deraling the thread. My apologies.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

No, it being an extension means nothing since we already have what happened in the primary canon. It's very existence is a contradiction the what actually happened in the manga.

Regardless, I'm not going to keep talking about it since it's deraling the thread. My apologies.

I just realized part of the Sasuke vs Gaara fight happened offscreen so it doesn't contradict anything, but ig we can talk about that in the scaling thread.

 

[AdNiBN002]

The Deidara/Akatsuki - Bijūice debacle has been bugging for a while so it's very nice to see it finally being adressed, heavily agree with this.

This further cements that his 'Biju level' status really is mainly thanks to that blade. Kisame's power output was also described to be Jinchuriki level when he fuses with Samehada, which is consistent with both his performance against V2 Bee, where even Gyuki thought that he'd be able to overpower and kill B which he almost did, and the conclusions I already presented here. So, yeah, no Biju level shenanigans I'm afraid.

Just to clarify here; would this mean that it's exclusively Base-Kisame who wouldn't qualify for Bijū scaling or isn't Fused Kisame applicable either?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

madara stated his perfect susanoo as strong as bijuu. n we know bijuu when have jinchuuriki are stronger than normal. sasori n hidan clapped jinchuuriki

The who Jinchuriki > Bijuu thing was addressed in the OP along with the Akatsuki (specfic members) not scaling resoning.

 

[LordTracer]

but it stated 3rd kazekage are the strongest kage im suna history even after rasa ded. that mean he should be above rasa. that made sasori bijuu level no?

The Third Kazekage is only the strongest because of his Iron Sand. But, as the OP said, you shouldn’t be bringing up other characters.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Just to clarify here; would this mean that it's exclusively Base-Kisame who wouldn't qualify for Bijū scaling or isn't Fused Kisame applicable either?

I guess he wouldn't necessarily have anything to disqualify him from being Bijū level by default, but even in his fused form, he has no Bijū level feats or scaling. If he did, I would've added him to the OP most likely.

Remember, there's no good reason to assume Akatsuki members have Bijū level AP by default. If they have feats or statements on that level, then they're good. But otherwise, they get rated based on their feats.

I just realized part of the Sasuke vs Gaara fight happened offscreen so it doesn't contradict anything, but ig we can talk about that in the scaling thread.

There are still minor contradictions, but yes, this should be left for later. Gaara and Sasuke have nothing to do with the OP.

Kakashi specifically tried to pierce through it fully but the Deva Path pushed him away first.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. You're gonna have to re-explain your point, if you don't mind.

Uh, no, he very clearly tried to pierce them here.

That means the arms are less durable than the torso.

Not necessarily, no. We see that the tip is lunged a bit into the torso. This is because Kakashi's just jabbing/stabbing the torso in a quick motion. He's not trying to impale them or anything, as that would hinder his movement and make him a sitting duck for the other V2s. He's trading blows with them here, not trying to plunge his arm deep into one of them.

Think of it like this. If you just stab someone repeatedly in quick succession, you'll cut them a lot, but the cuts will be pretty shallow overall as opposed to one powerful stab followed by a big push.
Remember, to actually stabb through something you gotta stab and then push. The knife or cutting object won't automatically go through something on its own.

As for consistency, Kakashi's Raiton is just consistently on this level. He stabbed through Obito, cut his mask, and cut the V2's arms. That's 3 feats vs one that's not even really an anti-feat. It's consistent.

But anyway, I feel like we're derailing with this debate since I already agreed Kakuzu should only scale with the Iron Spear. I'll update the OP with that later today.

Matched it in P1. There's several years between P1 and P2, it doesn't rlly make sense to assume Kisame stayed static.

Unless you have a reason to assume he got stronger, as well as an actual Bijū level feat, this entire point is completely moot.

His Shark bomb temporarily matched Hirudora which would probably be Bijuu level or above if calced.

It got completely overpowered by Hirudora, like what-
And no, Hirudora isn't really impressive calc-wise, unfortunately. I don't think it even hit 7-A last time it was calced. Although, you'll probably have better luck asking one of the calc experts about it off-thread.

Generations still canon

Not more canon than the manga.

It clearly caused external bleeding.
https://****************/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_61ca6ef79253a/89d50e257ec1f4366871064eaeb6d39d/NARUTO%E2%80%94%E3%83%8A%E3%83%AB%E3%83%88%E2%80%94-%E3%82%AB%E3%83%A9%E3%83%BC%E7%89%88-38---p041-%5BaKraa%5D.png

Okay? How does that not make it dura neg?
But anyway, again, this particular debate is pointless due to the conclusion we reached above.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I know we aren't supposed to be talking about scaling other people but I have to bring up Deidara's Statement that Sasori is stronger than him because if I don't I'm not gonna ne able to sleep for the rest of the night.

 

[Damage3245]

I think I should clarify that I'm not against Rasa scaling in some form to Shukaku; just not to Shukaku's Biju Bombs or his full power.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I think I should clarify that I'm not against Rasa scaling in some form to Shukaku; just not to Shukaku's Biju Bombs or his full power.

Well, he clashed with Shukaku's sand and presumably subdued him physically, so he'll scale to Shukaku physically.
Deciding what the Bijū will scale to physically will probably need its own thread, since pretty much everyone in the OP scales to their physicals directly. I plan on making that thread after certain calcs are made and accepted. I'll probably do it before the power-scaling focused thread as well, so both topics get the focus they deserve.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Ngl, this is disappointingly uncontroversial

 

[Deceived3596]

Ngl, this is disappointingly uncontroversial

I disagree with everything being proposed here.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I disagree with everything being proposed here.

Now we're talking

 

[Deceived3596]

Now we're talking

Give me a couple hours and i'll write down my 13 page essay on why none of these characters scale to the Bijuu.

Get ready nerd.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Give me a couple hours and i'll write down my 13 page essay on why none of these characters scale to the Bijuu.

Get ready nerd.

BRING. ME. SPICE!!!

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Read through the entire debate.

This is pretty solid. I don't see any major contradictions, and you seem to have the Kakuzu stuff figured out (which I was going to disagree at first)

Yeah, I think I agree.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I know we aren't supposed to be talking about scaling other people but I have to bring up Deidara's Statement that Sasori is stronger than him because if I don't I'm not gonna ne able to sleep for the rest of the night.

It's probably in the overall sense, not in direct power. Sasori clearly doesn't pack the power like Deidara's higher end explosions. Plus he uses poison which could ignore durability, so him "being stronger" doesn't mean he's superior to Deidara's overall firepower. Physical Strength, Speed, Intelligence, and abilities all could factor in when deciding "strength" in Naruto (Not all the time, but it's something to note)

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

It's probably in the overall sense, not in direct power. Sasori clearly doesn't pack the power like Deidara's higher end explosions. Plus he uses poison which could ignore durability, so him "being stronger" doesn't mean he's superior to Deidara's overall firepower. Physical Strength, Speed, Intelligence, and abilities all could factor in when deciding "strength" in Naruto (Not all the time, but it's something to note)

Yeah, and he also possesses the 3rd Kazekage's Iron Sand. It's definitely not a "Sasori's physicals are above Deidara's bombs" situation, as his power set is far too varied.

 

[KingTempest]

And no, Hirudora isn't really impressive calc-wise, unfortunately. I don't think it even hit 7-A last time it was calced. Although, you'll probably have better luck asking one of the calc experts about it off-thread.

It's very very very very ass

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

It's very very very very ass

Big L

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Haven't read anything but the OP

But so far, it looks really solid

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Thanks for the evaluation, Mitch.

That makes for 5 staff approvals (KingTempest, LordTracer, Damage, LordGriffin, and Mitch), 6 if you include me I guess but I always find it cheesy when the OP includes themselves in the agreement pile, staff or not.

Not gonna close this yet, of course, but this is a promising start since pretty much all active knowledgeable staff have already agreed with most if not all of the proposal.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Ngl, this is disappointingly uncontroversial

Light speed Black Ops

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Light speed Black Ops

Sleep.

 

[GTsek]

Finally, it's definitely worth mentioning that we actually have a pretty direct comparison between the Raikage's chops and his punches. Here's Lightened V2 Ay's punch vs Madara's Susano'o. For comparison, here's Lightened V2 Ay's chop vs Madara's Susano'o. As you can see, Ay's punch does even more damage to the Susano'o than the chop. It cracks its ribs and sends it flying, while the chop just cracks the outer armor. And, no, this is not because Ay had better footing while throwing the punch, since he was flying and had significant momentum while throwing the chop. This comparison works so well because it is the exact same form of Ay, at around the same general timeframe, and against the same exact opponent. As far as comparisons go, I don't think it gets much better than this. Simply put, the "Ay doesn't scale because piercing damage gg" take falls flat no matter how we look at it. If there's a better argument to disregard all of these feats and statements, I'd love to hear it, but this definitely won't do it for me.

I disagree with this example. Ay in this scene was amplified by Oonoki, he increased Ay's weight at the time of the attack so that Ay's punch would be heavier and thus cause more damage, Ay alone does not scale for that. The name of the attack is: "Chō Kajū iwa no jutsu" The word "Kajū" comes from "Kajūgan no jutsu", which is the weight amplified jutsu.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I disagree with this example. Ay in this scene was amplified by Oonoki, he increased Ay's weight at the time of the attack so that Ay's punch would be heavier and thus cause more damage, Ay alone does not scale for that. The name of the attack is: "Chō Kajū iwa no jutsu" The word "Kajū" comes from "Kajūgan no jutsu", which is the weight amplified jutsu.

A was amplified by the same exact Jutsu in both instances, so it doesn't matter at all.

 

[GTsek]

A was amplified by the same exact Jutsu in both instances, so it doesn't matter at all.

In the second time he doesn't use the V2 armor, his hair looks like the V1.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

In the second time he doesn't use the V2 armor, his hair looks like the V1.

You really shouldn't put too much stock into A's hair. His hair flip flops between the two designs on a regular basis, even within the same page sometimes....
Kishimoto is pretty inconsistent with it, and it looks different depending on the angle. This is why we should exercise logic when it comes to it. There's no reason to assume A was holding back here, against Madara of all people.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Bumperino

No rush, of course, but are we good to go or what?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Bumperino

No rush, of course, but are we good to go or what?

I'd say so but I'm not a staff member.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

No rush, of course, but are we good to go or what?

I mean you got unanimous agreement, although ig there's no harm in waiting a little bit longer.