3-A to 2-C Kingdom Hearts / ReMind / Re:Coded AP CRT (SPOILERS for Re:Mind)

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Hello there. Here we go again. I am here honestly to not only debunk the notion now that Re:Mind has been out for several days that 'Guardians' / 'Seekers' in the Base Game don't scale somewhat to Post Power of Waking Sora / Xehanort, but to describe things that maybe can help keep the upgrade the Guardians/Seekers previously got, and even upgrade existing keys prior to KH3. Also spoiler warning in the title. Due to (most) of these being relatively simple I won't be providing scans unless asked. Okay, here we go:

2-C Upgrade (End of KH3 - Re:Mind only scales to this)

• Scales only to KH3 Keyblade Graveyard level adversaries as no prior levels were capable of affecting this level.
• Xehanort's Goal was to rewrite the concepts of Light & Darkness and remake the world. It wasn't just remaking the material world, but resetting Light and Darkness to make them equal, which due to the absurdity of this would requiring affecting both realms, which in prior threads was referred to as 2-C prior. Especially since he refers to both realms & Xehanort refers to world when referring to it being remade as being the Greater World and far more than merely the material world but all the Realms [Light, Darkness, Between] : "At present, the lanes and corridors that run between the worlds may only be traversed by us Keyblade wielders, and those who have given themselves over to darkness. As the former, our duty is to cross the chasms between worlds and guard against the latter, whose darkness corrupts and contaminates, so that no world need ever be lost again.Few Keyblade wielders remain now; I have heard of but a handful of others outside my circle. But the World is vast, and more of our kind may be out there.Now, in addition to the realm of light in which we reside, there is also a realm of darkness, and the realm between which connects the two. The realm of darkness is most forbidden; I am told none who set foot there have ever returned."
• Both Re:Mind and Base KH3 refers to Light & Darkness being impossible to live without the other . In other words if her were to remake the Realm of Light , it would have to remake the Realm of Darkness as well, in other words a jointed feat of 2-C.
• Realm Between connects both Realm of Light & Realm of Darkness.

Support for Guardians / Seekers scaling to At the very least 3-A if not 2-C

• Re:Mind has several characters holding their own against "Post-Xehanort Sora"
• Re:Mind has Sora canonically utilize the datascape to take on data versions of every single entity after the events of Re:MInd's story, including Data
• Every single Guardian [sans Kairi, but she scales now directly for other reasons] was capable of taking on Xehanort Clones in Re:Mind , in which these Xehanort clones were the same ones that gave Sora trouble even before taking on the X-Blade. Even Mickey was doing surprisingly well against multiple of them while tired and worn out.
• All the Guardians can minimally affect Kingdom Hearts via the light from their keyblades, which while none of them are fully capable of stopping it, proves they somewhat scale.

Re:Coded Continuation This was ignored but I'm here to sort of try this again as it's vitally important. The thread is here, but to sum it up:

• Datascape was considered to be equivalent to the Real World / Realm of Light
• Datascape was consistently called a Universe.
• Data Sora's Heartless was going to destroy the Datascape which would require him in this particular case to not only destroy the data equivalent of 'all worlds', but the data 'Realm of Light' , which would qualify as at least 3-A. This was done in a far weaker version which Data Sora fodderized, who was intended to only rival Sora from the original KH1 title, and King Mickey [Post-KH2 but not much stronger than he was back in BBS] assisted Data-Sora and stomped the final version of Sora's Heartless, who is the posterboy scaling point for most of Kingdom Heart's higher end keybearers and high level entities.
• We now have multiple points Data can be utilized to this end , such as in Union X where it can create alternate worldlines, and even in Re:Mind where now canonically Data can be used to preserve 3-As such as Kingdom Hearts and X-Blade. So 3-A for the Datascape isn't impossible even by the verse's standards for using data.
• 3-A supports how through training the otherwise Tier 4s ended up crossing into 3-A in the short end of maybe a year.
• It supports how High 4-C is literally for those scaling to severely weakened and heavily worn down keybearers. In-fact, even Pete scales above the Tier 4s of Zeus to such an extent he thought Sora was weak enough after fighting the Titans that he could stomp him into the ground.
• The Structure of the Worlds is noted to be the following by Nomura's word, which included the Realms of Light & Darkness if specific worlds such as Oblivion and Twilight Town : "As for the structure of the worlds, first, the so-to-speak normal worlds—the ones that Sora, the Disney characters and we live on—are situated in the Realm of Light. If you picture those worlds as existing on the same level on top of a giant plane, then on a separate level, in other words on the reverse side, exists the Realm of Darkness.Regarding the Realm Between, four worlds have appeared so far: (A) Castle Oblivion, (B) Twilight Town, (C) Yen Sid's Tower, and (D) The World That Never Was. You can think of them as arranged like a stairway extending between the two Realm layers, something like Light < C < B > A > D > Darkness
• Meaning if A,B,C,D exist in the Worlds within the Datascape , 9/10 the Realms associated with them would be such as well within the Datascape since they are directly associated with it due to being staircases between the Realms, which would increase the destruction caused by Sora's Heartless.
• Not only do they state countless times that every world is within the Datascape, it was intended to be an equal counterpart to it.
• If we go this route, it would mean the destruction of the Datascape would include these realms, and since the Datascape encompasses this cosmology it would explicitly wipe out both the Worlds & Realms within the Datascape, giving it at bare minimum a 3-A feat, if not potentially 2-C due to the Realm of Light and Darkness feat .
• Destroying the Realms =/= Rewritting the Realm's Concepts such as the X-Blade did, So, scaling to their destruction doesn't make any of them comparable to the X-Blade at all.

Scaling Who scales to Re:Coded ?(At least High 4-C, possibly/likely 3-A / 2-C or even straight up 3-A / 2-C)

All those who scale to or above KH1 Maleficent's level (She didn't gain power since KH1 as she has currently shown when in Union X. She put up more of a fight than Sora's Heartless against Data-Sora in Castle Oblivion alongside Pete. She tanked Sora's Heartless' direct attack alongside Pete with no damage and only went there to calm it down and wasn't attempting to fight the Heartless . Only scale to First Form Sora's Heartless)

Who scales to Re:Mind ? (2-C)

Those who were essentially active in the Keyblade Graveyard. Technically Namine scales via empowering/creating the Lingering Will but via hax only that usually most enemies wouldn't allow her to do mid fight... So likely not combat applicable.

 

[Bobsican]

Everything seems fine, althought I wouldn't do a profile for Naminé for now, her character when it comes to fighting is practically as nonexistent as Winnie the Pooh's as of now.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Bump. That is understandable considering her lack of content for combat right now.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Bump.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

This is good.

 

[Sumguyonvswiki2]

Yes sora and kairi were able to battle Armored Xehanort who who was cloned with the power of the x-blade, but he was able to perform feats that the real armored xehanort was incapable of due to the fact that he had 12 no-name keyblades made from the hearts he aquired from the war was able to open the keyhole to multiple worlds and summon worlds which he then spilt off large meteors to devastate sora and kairi. Not to mention a clone did all this and sora and kairi defeat him with slight dofficulty he was aslo able to make glyphs in armored form just like x-blade xehanort he seemed stronger than his normal armored form in the base game

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

@Bandit Always appreciate your support Bandit.

@Sumguy Indeed. The feat putting them above base Xehanort as of Re:Mind was definitely one of the biggest shockers. Not to mention Kairi being revealed to be able to pressure Xemnas when a dual tag team of Roxas , Xion, and Axel couldn't do anything to him even when fighting together.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Bump.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Good lord, couldn't wait like...a week before this? Like I have not gad the chance to play it. Basicslly, I won't be giving input ubtil I do.

 

[Bobsican]

Remind isn't even that long, the main thing is easy to complete in less than 2 hours if you skip some cutscenes, as half of them are stuff you should have seen already in vanilla KHIII (As they were reused exactly as they were for the most part).

But as I know about not being spoiled and all of that, well, take your time, I guess.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Give me a few days assuming this isn't concluded as I have other thing to do beyond just playing Re:Mind.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Bump. Fair enough Dragon. Hoping it doesn't get concluded before then.

They do confirm during Sora returning to Scala and talking to Xehanort that the Re:Mind Sora is after he fights Xehanort in Scala. It's not that important in the grand scheme of things, but does make scaling slightly more consistent.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I agree with 2-C for the following reasons; Kingdom Hearts is the embodiment of all hearts. This should include the hearts of every person and world in the realm of light, the realm of darkness, the realm of sleep and the datascape. In addition to that the incomplete Kingdom Hearts from Kingdom Hearts I was a door connecting the realm of light and the realm of darkness that brought the worlds that had fallen into the realm of darkness back. Because of this I'm pretty sure that Kingdom Hearts has a multiversal range. Since the realm of darkness had an appearance in Kingdom Hearts I it should have an equivalent in the datascape since it is the journal describing the events of that time.

I don't agree with the points about Maleficent and Namine. The Maleficent in Castle Ovlivion is an illusion and not the real one. There are also multiple endings depending on how well you do against her. She also didn't directly fight against Data-Sora. It was never stated that Namine empowered the Lingering Will. She just called out to him. Considering that he already existed in Kingdom Hearts II as a secret boss and we saw his origin in Kingdom Hearts birth by sleep saying that she created him makes even less sense.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I originally wanted a semicolon in my first sentence from my last comment. Regarding the destruction of the datascape: If it is a universe, isn't that low 2-C even if you don't believe there to be two realms since that would technically destroy it's spacetime?

 

[Bobsican]

@Nehz XZX

Maleficent and Pete recall being in the datascape as seen in KH3D

I have to also totally agree on the Naminé part.

I support everything else on your part, including Low 2-C Datascape.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I'm not denying that Maleficent and Pete were in the datascape. Their counterparts in Castle Oblivion were illusions. All encounters outside of that place were the real ones.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

The problem though is that the illusions functioning like data, they were fabricated based identically on Sora's memories of them and their multiple encounters in the datascape. So the Pete he fought in Oblivion should be comparable unless we consider that Sora remembered a Pete superior to the one we know of.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I don't think that it was said that they were based on his memories. Data-Sora had already lost his memories of their encounters at that point. There are also multiple versions to the result of that fight. You can take a long time against him and he will be unfazed. The opposite is the case with defeating him really fast.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I'd also like to point out that Pete and Maleficent fought against Sora's heartless and lost. Afterwards Data-Sora had a fight against him that he would have lost without Mickey. If Pete's fight in Castle Oblivion is really harder for Data-Sora, then that Pete is simply superior to the one he fought before that.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Where did you get that indication at all ? It wasn't a "fight". They weren't trying to "fight"it . As mentioned in the OP, and directly shown, they were trying to calm it down and convince it to fight for them. Not once did they actively take it on, we just know their durability scales to it as they survived the attack.

Then when fighting Dragon Maleficent, she was noted to give Data-Sora immense trouble in the files of the game. Even when held off it was clear unlike with KH1 she wasn't vanquished after fighting Data-Sora, merely was temporarily subdued but not to a knock out, as we hear Maleficent berating Data-Sora at the end of the fight, unlike with what happened in KH 1 where Sora where he can knock her out to the point she has to take a while to reform.

We know for a fact Maleficent didn't get stronger. We see it in KHUX when she was noted well after Re:Coded to merely be in the same power level and has the same power level she has one first meets her. She hasn't gained any power.

Besides, I didn't even get into scaling to the Bugs, who were noteably capable of ending the Datascape as noted by Data-Riku, who both Pete and Maleficent / Pete scale far above anyways since they are treated as far bigger threats than Data-Riku, who is the Datascape , capable of manipulating it's whole totality, and other such feats. Also hence why Dragon Maleficent is > Maleficent > Data-Riku = Datascape level entities.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Watch this video[[1]] at 1:54:17 and you see that Maleficent referred to it as opponent.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

That would still unironically mean she lasted in a fight against it for an extended period of time off screen. She at least scales > the Bugs and Data-Riku who they scale to the Datascape... So genuinely it doesn't matter how she did versus the Heartless... or if she fought it... it's merely a supporting feat.

Another thing that proves the Datascape isn't an outlier is whose taking on those scaling to them. It isn't the cream of the crop , it's those like Donald, Goofy, Pete and Maleficent : Entities comparatively weaker than KH1 Final Bosses up until far after Dream Drop Distance

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I never argued against her scaling. She just doesn't scale above Sora's heartless whom she couldn't beat even with Pete fighting alongside her.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I think it's safe to say that Keyblades are empowered by the hearts and with that the feelings of their wielders. Aqua was capable of defeating Ventus-Vanitas and shattering his X-Blade after asking Terra and Ven to give her stength. When Aqua was faced with multiple Darksides in the Realm of Darkness where even the weakest Heartless are a threat to Keyblade Wielders like her and about to give up, Terra's and Ventus's Keyblades came flying to her aid and one-shotted the Darksides. In ReMind Mickey was able to go from being nearly defeated by the Xehanort Replicas even with the help from six fellow Keyblade Wielders to one-shotting multiple ones of them at once with sheer willpower and thinking about the bonds he Shares the other Keyblade Wielders. Therefore the Keyblade and all Keyblade Wielders should get Empowerment and a far higher Attack Potency when enhanced by their emotions.

 

[Zorback32]

I agree with 2C not just because of everything posted here but also this interview: https://www.dualshockers.com/tetsuya-nomura-reveals-new-details-on-kingdom-hearts-3-remind-dlc/ Narmura basically says the story mode organization was nerfed and the Data versions are their real power levels. Which means by story interpretation, Sora fought Marluxia with a doom counter, Larxene cloning herself 20 times and moving faster then light, and Luxord who can shift demensions and fate all at the same time...AND WON. Thats saying nothing about Nort trio and the old man himself with a completed X-Blade. Sora is a damn god now

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, chances are the main reason they didn't use some of their best techniques is becuase the wide Area of effect can lead to friendly fire, which clearly doesn't happen with the "limiter".

But yeah, they theorically should be able to do all the same things as in the data fights in theory.

 

[Zorback32]

when the creator himself says the characters were nerfed due to gameplay reasons its hard to argue the point. and friendly fire has almost never been a thing in kingdom hearts and organization 13 was clearly skilled in using their techniques togeather. Both Marulxia and Larxene are showing using their Limit Breaks at the same time. they were obviously not afraid of friendly fire. in fact every story battle of organization 13 in KH3 they are shown using their limit breaks at the same time. and old man Xehnaort was tossing around thounsands of keyblades at one very small platfrom. keep in mind due to gameplay reasons only, they were nerfed as said by the creator himself. storywise they were not nerfed. This means by story standards, they were all fighting with the power levels of their data versions.

 

[Zorback32]

And Xigbars Limit Break inparticular was tthe entire arena wide and he clearly wasint worried it would hit relica riku. Same thing with both Marluxia and Larxenes. keep in mind again thier limit breaks in the story fights were NERFED FOR GAMEPLAY REASONS ONLY.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Considering they weren't worried about hitting their fellow Seekers of Darkness should we give all of them intangible attacks?

 

[Zorback32]

it could be, but it also could be that the organization memebers just are good at synchronzing their attacks which is not an uncommon theme in kingdom hearts since sora syncs his attacks with everone he meets

 

[Nehz_XZX]

They would in that case still have to make sure not to hit the other members or to somehow dodge or avoid the large scale attacks of the other members.

 

[Zorback32]

then i would consider their attacks intangible because Marulxias and Larxenes limit breaks overlap each each other and larxene even zigzags THROUGH Maruluxias scyth. Also their probobly intangible themselves while in limit break from as they cannot be hurt even with magic. and their limit breaks cannot be blocked they must be avoided

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Considering that pretty much everybody has Non-Physical Interaction wouldn't that be more of a Resistance against that?

 

[Zorback32]

resistence would be when they actaully give themselves an armor buff. in the data battles all of them have an ability that temeporily gives them an extra hp bar in the form of an armor bar. the armor must either be destroyed or waited out depending on the battle. (Marulxias armor is weak to fire attacks however and will instently break upon contact with any fire spell) during their limit breaks however they are immune to all damage. If it were a simple matter of resistence even a fire spell would hurt marluxia as he clearly has a weakness to it

 

[Nehz_XZX]

How is the armor buff a Resistance against Non-Physical Interaction? As far as I can tell one can interact with them just fine while they are using it. They simply have an additional layer of protection. That seems more like a form of Forcefield Creation to me. I don't quite understand your last sentence but you did mention prior to that that Marluxia's armor is weak to fire attacks.

 

[Zorback32]

im saying its more likely that during their limit breaks they are invulnerable. remember they have to be hard prssed to use thier limit breaks, they cant just use it off hand and after they use it they leave themselves wide open to attacks. if limit breaks only incresed resistence, Marluxia would still take damage from a fire attack. Sora is also invulnerable during certain attacks and you basically have to use those invincbility frames to fully utilize all of sora;s abilites. for examble during a form change sora is completly invunerable.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Okay, that definitely does seem like Invulnerability. Every Seeker of Darkness who doesn't have that already on their profile like for example Larxene should have that added then.

 

[Bobsican]

Oh yeah, they seem to become intangible like how the Dusk did to Roxas in KHII, so that can fall as such.

Anyways, @Nehz XZX and @Zorback32, please grant yourselves some profile pictures, as right now the discussion is a bit hard to track down because of that.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I have picked a profile picture now. I didn't pick one earlier since I don't care about these sorts of things but if it actually helps, I'll do it.