22nd Budokai Arc Downgrades (Dragon Ball)

[KingTempest]

The panel you yourself shared have Roshi stating that the Tri-Beam is so colossally powerful that it drains one's own energy, which is not something that Roshi's Full Power Kamehameha did (future Kamehamehas are irrelevant to this statement).

In fact, I think you are twisting Roshi's words, he first praises the Tri-Beam destructive force, yes, and then he makes a pause, only to say that the Tri-Beam is many times more powerful than the Kamehameha.

It can't be any more clear than that, and the Super Kamehameha? It's just a stronger technique unrelated to Roshi's original Kamehameha.

How do you feel about this statement of the destruction shown being far superior to the Kamehameha when the Kamehameha destroyed the moon

 

[Therefir]

It doesn't contradict the Tri-Beam being more powerful than the Kamehameha, it can be both more destructive and powerful than it.

 

[KingTempest]

It doesn't contradict the Tri-Beam being more powerful than the Kamehameha, it can be both more destructive and powerful than it.

But it's clearly not more destructive than Roshi's max kamehameha, even though he says it's superior to the kamehameha

 

[Kachon123]

It doesn't contradict the Tri-Beam being more powerful than the Kamehameha, it can be both more destructive and powerful than it.

The issue is that the destructive capabilities of Tri-Beam that were called superior the the Kamehameha only destroyed an arena and the ground below it. There is absolutely no way we can claim that it's superior to Roshi's 5-C Kamehameha due to is literally just not having greater destructive capabilities than it.

We can only scale it above a standard Kamehameha.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Super Kamehameha? It's just a stronger technique unrelated to Roshi's original Kamehameha.

Therefir I'm on your side, stop being silly

I just corrected someone who used Super Kamehameha's multiplier and applied to Roshi's.

 

[Therefir]

It's probably referring to the way it was destroyed, leaving absolutely nothing behind.

Plus the Tri-Beam always does that amount of damage regardless of Tien's power, even against Cell, where Tien Shinhan is definitely much stronger than the Full Power Roshi who performed the 5-C feat.

Once again, it doesn't contradict the attack being more powerful than Roshi's 5-C Kamehameha.

 

[Jason_Courne]

How do you feel about this statement of the destruction shown being far superior to the Kamehameha when the Kamehameha destroyed the moon

"What destruction... what power... one can't even begin to compare it to the Kamehameha!"

He never said it was more destructive than the Kamehameha, he just said it was a very destructive and powerful attack that the Kamehameha didn't even compare to.

 

[Therefir]

Therefir I'm on your side, stop being silly

I just corrected someone who used Super Kamehameha's multiplier and applied to Roshi's.

I was responding to this comment by KT:

And yes, I can prove the "average kamehameha" exists, because even Goku when he came back as a grown ass man talked about his "Super Kamehameha", implying that there is a regular one and a super one.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Hey, if the Daizenshuu 7's Power Levels are being taken as legitimate in this discussion, then Tien's 180 at the time exceeds Yamcha's 177 at the time of the Raditz Saga; at that point, Yamcha had surpassed MAX Power Roshi.

 

[Kachon123]

It's probably referring to the way it was destroyed, leaving absolutely nothing behind.

Plus the Tri-Beam always does that amount of damage regardless of Tien's power, even against Cell, where Tien Shinhan is definitely much stronger than the Full Power Roshi who performed the 5-C feat.

Once again, it doesn't contradict the attack being more powerful than Roshi's 5-C Kamehameha.

It's a localized **** you beam.

 

[KingTempest]

It's probably referring to the way it was destroyed, leaving absolutely nothing behind.

Yeah Roshi ain't leave nothing behind when he destroyed the moon either

Plus the Tri-Beam always does that amount of damage regardless of Tien's power, even against Cell, where Tien shinhan is definitely much stronger than Full Power Roshi.

That isn't the point, and you trying to find a fix means you see the clear issue and want to find a fix around it

The Tri-Beam shows better DC feats than every Kamehameha outside of the max form, and it's stated to be able to destroy more by the dude who destroyed the moon

I don't care if you vaporize that shit it ain't close to completely turning the moon into pebbles

It isn't referencing the max power one, it's referencing the regular one.

On top of that, Tien is not "much stronger" than Full Power Roshi. At all.

Hey, if the Daizenshuu 7's Power Levels are being taken as legitimate in this discussion, then Tien's 180 at the time exceeds Yamcha's 177 at the time of the Raditz Saga; at that point, Yamcha had surpassed MAX Power Roshi.

Why is that power level of Roshi's referencing his MAX Power
Because it ain't, because the Scouter was scanning base form Roshi

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Why is that power level of Roshi's referencing his MAX Power

It ain't.
Yamcha is 5-C.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

False. Roshi comments he has trained to increase his power considerably so to as not lose to Goku, and when watching Goku fight freely admits Goku may be too much. Yamcha also comments that Roshi has improved and polished himself further. Mind you, fighters at this stage of the story can already deduce how much power you have whilst holding back. This seen with Goku, (who then claims the battle between them is uncertain, twice), Tien, and displayed multiple times in the thread, Roshi himself.

All of these fighters are aware that Roshi blew up the Moon, mind you, as RIGHT BEFORE his fight with Tien, there is a whole gag dedicated to HIM POINTING OUT/REMEMBERING HAVING BLOWN UP THE MOON. (Of which both Tien AND Goku watched). This is when he uses his Hypnosis to reverse Man-Wolf's Werewolf Form. And recall that in this fight, Roshi quits because Tien's power is SO ASTOUNDING (which he saw in a mere Kamehameha Wave), that it ASSURES TO HIM the next Generation is strong enough to defend the Earth.

This is probably the strongest piece of evidence for 5-C Tien and Goku ngl

 

[KingTempest]

It ain't.
Yamcha is 5-C.

Yeah because of scaling above Roshi when for some reason his base punches randomly cliffed his max power Kamehameha

 

[Huesito88]

So hypothetically if Roshi's Maximum power Kamehameha would have a separate power level it'd need to be atleast on the 322 of Piccolo's power level?

 

[KingTempest]

So hypothetically if Roshi's Maximum power Kamehameha would have a separate power level it'd need to be atleast on the 322 of Piccolo's power level?

Can't say, all we know is that it's superior to his regular strength

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Yeah because of scaling above Roshi when for some reason his base punches randomly cliffed his max power Kamehameha

Right, so, Tien > BoZ Yamcha > MAX Power Roshi?

 

[KingTempest]

Right, so, Tien > BoZ Yamcha > MAX Power Roshi?

That is what the profiles say, that ain't the solid truth and that's what's being contended

 

[thetechmaster36]

snip

I've yet to see an actual counterargument to this, just saying. This is probably the biggest chunk of evidence I'm seeing thus far. The only thing that was said to address this is Goku being Large Building level, which doesn't counter this whatsoever.

So unless I see a good counterargument to this post, I don't agree with what this CRT is pushing.

 

[KingTempest]

I've yet to see an actual counterargument to this, just saying. This is probably the biggest chunk of evidence I'm seeing thus far. The only thing that was said to address this is Goku being Large Building level, which doesn't counter this whatsoever.

So unless I see a good counterargument to this post, I don't agree with what this CRT is pushing.

lol, okay

False. Roshi comments he has trained to increase his power considerably so to as not lose to Goku, and when watching Goku fight freely admits Goku may be too much. Yamcha also comments that Roshi has improved and polished himself further. Mind you, fighters at this stage of the story can already deduce how much power you have whilst holding back. This seen with Goku, (who then claims the battle between them is uncertain, twice), Tien, and displayed multiple times in the thread, Roshi himself.

All of these fighters are aware that Roshi blew up the Moon, mind you, as RIGHT BEFORE his fight with Tien, there is a whole gag dedicated to HIM POINTING OUT/REMEMBERING HAVING BLOWN UP THE MOON. (Of which both Tien AND Goku watched). This is when he uses his Hypnosis to reverse Man-Wolf's Werewolf Form. And recall that in this fight, Roshi quits because Tien's power is SO ASTOUNDING (which he saw in a mere Kamehameha Wave), that it ASSURES TO HIM the next Generation is strong enough to defend the Earth.

It simply doesn't work. Roshi is Moon Level. Tien is explicitly comparable to a stronger Roshi. Then his technique outputs more power than a Kamehameha Wave at the cost of Life Force. Goku is also stated to have surpassed Roshi at this point as well, and they fight nearly evenly. Thus, Tien and Son Goku are Moon Level.

Roshi was never shown to increase his power to be superior to his previous max power's amped form

Goku struggled with base Roshi, and Tien was comparable to base Roshi

All this "surpassed Roshi" is thought of to mean "surpassed the absolute limits of Roshi's body" instead of "surpassed the mf who was just punching them in their faces"

Everybody's aware that he blew up the moon, but that's with his max power kamehameha, which is explicitly superior to the rest of his arsenal
They all struggled with base form Roshi but somehow comparable to the amped form of the technique

1. Roshi has his base form Kamehameha
2. Then he has his full power form's Kamehameha
3. Then he has his max power Kamehameha that boomed the moon, which for some reason, everybody apparently scales to

Nobody has proof he scales above the 3rd one, which is the one stated and shown to boom the moon

 

[thetechmaster36]

Roshi was never shown to increase his power to be superior to his previous max power's amped form

This has little relevance when that isn't even what's being argued. Instead, what's being argued is that, even after having done some training, thereby increasing the power ceiling for his MAX Power "form", in order to not lose to Goku — or at the very least, not have it be as close as their initial fight was — states that fighting Goku after HIS training and seeing what he can do might be bad for Roshi himself.

He actively increased his own maximum power, and even after that, seeing Goku's display of strength put him on the fence and had him concerned about whether or not he would actually win.

Goku struggled with base Roshi, and Tien was comparable to base Roshi

Correction: 21st Tenkaichi Budokai Goku struggled with 21st Tenkaichi Budokai Base Roshi. Even then, it wasn't a full-on struggle for Goku, they were on semi-even footing until Monkeku came out and exhausted Roshi and Goku.

Tien was shown to be on equal footing with 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai Base Roshi, the latter of whom states that he had been training and is corroborated by other statements of sharpening his prowess via training.

Even then, Tien was very implicitly, maybe even explicitly, stronger than Roshi as Roshi gave up in the middle of their match, admitting that Tien was better than he thought, and following this, admits that he could have likely lost had their battle continued.

There's a large difference in the scenarios you are listing.

All this "surpassed Roshi" is thought of to mean "surpassed the absolute limits of Roshi's body" instead of "surpassed the mf who was just punching them in their faces"

When Roshi himself is admitting that Goku is stronger than him, what reason is there to doubt that he is speaking inclusively of his MAX Power state? Why is it that we are arbitrarily excluding his MAX Power state when the very same man is saying that there are things that are superior to him?

We don't need such specification, we can extrapolate those conclusions based on who is saying it (Roshi himself) in tandem with the events that unfold that causes said character to say it (Goku's displays of power against the Red Ribbon Army and in the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai).

Everybody's aware that he blew up the moon, but that's with his max power kamehameha, which is explicitly superior to the rest of his arsenal

Yes, we are aware of that, but it's literally just a Kamehameha at his maximum strength. It's explicitly superior to everything else he has because it's a Kamehameha fired at Roshi's full power.

2. Then he has his full power form's Kamehameha
3. Then he has his max power Kamehameha that boomed the moon, which for some reason, everybody apparently scales to

Would the two Kamehameha's fired from MAX Power Roshi (the Frypan Mountain and 21st TB Kamehameha's) not be in differing levels of strength because of the fact that one instance is Roshi not going all-out whereas the other one is? I don't see much of a fundamental difference between the two beyond the amount of strength Roshi uses in those instances.

Nobody has proof he scales above the 3rd one, which is the one stated and shown to boom the moon

The proof is the fact that we have Roshi:

1. Stating that Goku was stronger than him (you can also include Korin's statement in this sort of category)
2. Roshi being in shock at Goku's display of power in the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai, becoming nervous and stating that it would likely be bad for him if they ended up fighting again
3. Stating that Tien was better than he thought and that he (Roshi) would have lost if they kept fighting

For the umpteenth time, we don't need specifics. Roshi, the man who is well aware of his full power and ceiling, going out of his way to say everything listed above as well as training before the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai to not lose to Goku is proof enough that they scale above the Moon level Kamehameha. Saying otherwise is straight up denial, simple as that.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I was responding to this comment by KT

I have the worst case of "stupid", forgive me

 

[KingTempest]

This has little relevance when that isn't even what's being argued. Instead, what's being argued is that, even after having done some training, thereby increasing the power ceiling for his MAX Power "form", in order to not lose to Goku — or at the very least, not have it be as close as their initial fight was — states that fighting Goku after HIS training and seeing what he can do might be bad for Roshi himself.

He actively increased his own maximum power, and even after that, seeing Goku's display of strength put him on the fence and had him concerned about whether or not he would actually win.

He increased the power he utilizes in combat.

You need to realize Roshi back then doesn't utilize his full power form in combat. Every fight we see, even when Roshi extreme diffed Goku in the 21st, he didn't use it until absolutely necessary
Shit he didn't even use it against Piccolo

21st Goku was also a threat to 21st Roshi yet his full power max power kamehameha would've killed his 10x strengthened Great Ape form. There is a huge gap

Correction: 21st Tenkaichi Budokai Goku struggled with 21st Tenkaichi Budokai Base Roshi. Even then, it wasn't a full-on struggle for Goku, they were on semi-even footing until Monkeku came out and exhausted Roshi and Goku.

Tien was shown to be on equal footing with 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai Base Roshi, the latter of whom states that he had been training and is corroborated by other statements of sharpening his prowess via training.

So...
21st Goku ~ 21st Base Roshi
22nd Base Roshi ~ 22nd Tien ~ 22nd Goku

Even then, Tien was very implicitly, maybe even explicitly, stronger than Roshi as Roshi gave up in the middle of their match, admitting that Tien was better than he thought, and following this, admits that he could have likely lost had their battle continued.

No, because Roshi says that he would've lost if kept fighting as he was.

Roshi didn't use his full power against Tien, stated by Tien.
Not his full power buff form, his base full power.
That's proven cause his base full power that he actually utilized against King Piccolo has the same exact power level as Goku and Tien.

Not everything is strength. Roshi was amazed that Tien was skilled enough to easily utilize the Kamehameha after seeing it once, and he claimed he could just copy all his other moves.
On top of that, he was a skilled fighter with a deep bag.

When it comes to skill and variety, Tien has it.
When it comes to AP, it's dead even.

There's a large difference in the scenarios you are listing.

Goku in the 22nd and Tien in the 22nd has the same exact power level as Master Roshi against King Piccolo, when he was tryharding, something Tien stated he didn't do against him.

When Roshi himself is admitting that Goku is stronger than him, what reason is there to doubt that he is speaking inclusively of his MAX Power state? Why is it that we are arbitrarily excluding his MAX Power state when the very same man is saying that there are things that are superior to him?

We don't need such specification, we can extrapolate those conclusions based on who is saying it (Roshi himself) in tandem with the events that unfold that causes said character to say it (Goku's displays of power against the Red Ribbon Army and in the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai).

Because this is what you end up implementing
Goku > Roshi's Full Power's Max Power Kamehameha >>> Roshi's Full Power Kamehameha > Base Roshi's Kamehameha > Base Roshi

Effectively making Goku and Tien shit levels above Roshi.

Same Base Roshi who is on Tien and Goku's level.

Yes, we are aware of that, but it's literally just a Kamehameha at his maximum strength. It's explicitly superior to everything else he has because it's a Kamehameha fired at Roshi's full power.

Would the two Kamehameha's fired from MAX Power Roshi (the Frypan Mountain and 21st TB Kamehameha's) not be in differing levels of strength because of the fact that one instance is Roshi not going all-out whereas the other one is? I don't see much of a fundamental difference between the two beyond the amount of strength Roshi uses in those instances.

They would be different, because the Daizenshuu notes a difference between the Kamehameha used on Frypan and the moon busting Kamehameha as completely different techniques, just like Goku's Kamehameha and his Super Kamehameha

The proof is the fact that we have Roshi:

1. Stating that Goku was stronger than him (you can also include Korin's statement in this sort of category)
2. Roshi being in shock at Goku's display of power in the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai, becoming nervous and stating that it would likely be bad for him if they ended up fighting again
3. Stating that Tien was better than he thought and that he (Roshi) would have lost if they kept fighting

For the umpteenth time, we don't need specifics. Roshi, the man who is well aware of his full power and ceiling, going out of his way to say everything listen above as well as training before the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai to not lose to Goku is proof enough that they scale above the Moon level Kamehameha. Saying otherwise is straight up denial, simple as that.

For umpteenth time, stop trying to make people who are relative scale above the max capabilities of others

 

[Robo432343]

Or!

He's referring to both the destruction and its raw power

why cant we just ask the creator wth

 

[CloverDragon03]

why cant we just ask the creator wth

There's a whole thing against pestering creators with specific power-scaling questions to try and use said answers on-site

 

[Robo432343]

There's a whole thing against pestering creators with specific power-scaling questions to try and use said answers on-site

we could've just asked what his interpretation was in a way that doesn't specifically refer to powerscaling
simple

 

[CloverDragon03]

we could've just asked what his interpretation was in a way that doesn't specifically refer to powerscaling
simple

There's pretty much no way you could get around this because it'll always end up being pretty blatant that your aim is to find something out about a power scaling topic

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

He increased the power he utilizes in combat.

You need to realize Roshi back then doesn't utilize his full power form in combat. Every fight we see, even when Roshi extreme diffed Goku in the 21st, he didn't use it until absolutely necessary
Shit he didn't even use it against Piccolo

21st Goku was also a threat to 21st Roshi yet his full power max power kamehameha would've killed his 10x strengthened Great Ape form. There is a huge gap

So...
21st Goku ~ 21st Base Roshi
22nd Base Roshi ~ 22nd Tien ~ 22nd Goku

No, because Roshi says that he would've lost if kept fighting as he was.

Roshi didn't use his full power against Tien, stated by Tien.
Not his full power buff form, his base full power.
That's proven cause his base full power that he actually utilized against King Piccolo has the same exact power level as Goku and Tien.

Not everything is strength. Roshi was amazed that Tien was skilled enough to easily utilize the Kamehameha after seeing it once, and he claimed he could just copy all his other moves.
On top of that, he was a skilled fighter with a deep bag.

When it comes to skill and variety, Tien has it.
When it comes to AP, it's dead even.

Goku in the 22nd and Tien in the 22nd has the same exact power level as Master Roshi against King Piccolo, when he was tryharding, something Tien stated he didn't do against him.

Because this is what you end up implementing
Goku > Roshi's Full Power's Max Power Kamehameha >>> Roshi's Full Power Kamehameha > Base Roshi's Kamehameha > Base Roshi

Effectively making Goku and Tien shit levels above Roshi.

Same Base Roshi who is on Tien and Goku's level.


They would be different, because the Daizenshuu notes a difference between the Kamehameha used on Frypan and the moon busting Kamehameha as completely different techniques, just like Goku's Kamehameha and his Super Kamehameha

MAX Power and Base are not that far apart in strength, iirc

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

There's pretty much no way you could get around this because it'll always end up being pretty blatant that your aim is to find something out about a power scaling topic

I mean, asking normal powerscaling questions such as "Could MAX Power Roshi have beaten Tien" is something any DB fan could ask without being in relation to "our" meaning of powerscaling

 

[KingTempest]

MAX Power and Base are not that far apart in strength, iirc

Based on what

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Based on what

No need to go bold, idrc about this thread! I think back to RoF and Tournament of Power fights which don't really portray much of a gap

 

[KingTempest]

No need to go bold, idrc about this thread! I think back to RoF and Tournament of Power fights which don't really portray much of a gap

RoF shows him bodying everybody. No measurement there

I've been hearing this a lot, what in the ToP shows a "non big gap"?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Nah this is just idiotic. Roshi's max power is the Standard he is going to compare everyone to. Not his base suppressed self. They surpassed his max power and he needed to train to Bridge the gap. Said by himself, said by Korin and they never mentioned MP because there is nothing to mention as it's not a multiplier or anything. It's just Roshi's max ki and a state suitable to using it. If he wasn't talking about his strongest state then he wouldn't have spoke about them surpassing him but rather making him get serious.

 

[KingTempest]

So "no". That's cool

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's honestly vague one way or the other if Tri Beam "Surpassing the Kamehameha" is being compared to what version; max power or regular. It's more destructive for sure and considerably more powerful, but it's not like "Max Power" has the same recoil about shortening life spans. And while I agree MPK and Tri Beam should logically be above their traditional punches; jumping all the way from Tier 8 to Tier 5 for one specific attack kinda feels weird. Plus, Roshi's statements about him standing no chance against Goku but considers Tien someone who could beat him is still worth holding weight. There is also no official statement for Max Power Roshi's PL, but it shouldn't be any higher than Goku or Tien's given his statement. Otherwise, Max Power could have easily turned a stomp around.

Likewise, Tien does still consistently have speed in the same ballpark as various folks well above Master Roshi's Max Power, so it wouldn't make much sense for his speed to be within the scaling chain but his power to be all the way down to Tier 8. It is also implied Roshi did do some training in hopes he could catch up to Goku's level and stop him from winning the tournament, which by extension would make even his Max Power form and Kamehameha even stronger than before by extension considerably, but that's still not enough to turn a stomp around.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

MAX Power Kamehameha is just a regular Kamehameha with more ki into it, it's said in the Daizenshuu! The max form is only so Roshi can withstand the backlash of the attack with his muscles, so categorizing the MAX Power Kamehameha as it's own thing is fundamentally wrong

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

MAX Power Kamehameha is just a regular Kamehameha with more ki into it, it's said in the Daizenshuu! The max form is only so Roshi can withstand the backlash of the attack with his muscles, so categorizing the MAX Power Kamehameha as it's own thing is fundamentally wrong

That's what I have been saying thank you. The premise of MP Roshi and MP kamehameha not being Roshi's standard comparison makes no sense. They are nothing special. One is Roshi's full power and the other a kemahemeha thrown with that power. It's evident that Roshi compares everyone to his whole power that's why he says they have surpassed him.

 

[KingTempest]

How they surpass his Full Power and struggle with his base

You guys keep saying "it's obvious they mean his full power max power" and never prove so

Meanwhile I've shown time and time again that they've meant the states that he actually fought them in

It's ridiculous atp

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

How they surpass his Full Power and struggle with his base

You guys keep saying "it's obvious they mean his full power max power" and never prove so

Meanwhile I've shown time and time again that they've meant the states that he actually fought them in

It's ridiculous atp

Because it was not his base. He has no base. It's just the same Roshi. Max power is just a thing to help him gather up all his energy in one attack and nothing more. Had he used it in any fight he would have gassed out after a single attack. Same as everyone else if they used all their ki in a single attack. In the anime it's pretty evident that he did bulk up but he didn't use the fully buff form because he would have lost even faster.

 

[KingTempest]

Because it was not his base. He has no base. It's just the same Roshi. Max power is just a thing to help him gather up all his energy in one attack and nothing more. Had he used it in any fight he would have gassed out after a single attack. Same as everyone else if they used all their ki in a single attack. In the anime it's pretty evident that he did bulk up but he didn't use the fully buff form because he would have lost even faster.

I'm tired of this "it's the same roshi it's just all his energy" bs

It shoots ki throughout his body and amps his muscles

It's the same thing as grade 3 SSJ

This didn't even counter the point all you did was just "fix" the names that we call them by