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Personally im not seeing any real reasons on why they should be seperate cosmologies. Disagree fra
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Uncompositing the Dragon Ball Cosmology
- Thread starter BestMGQScalerEver
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It vastly depends on where that is from.
Taking the Otherworld as an example, most of the anime additions to the Otherworld were all Toriyama's ideas, he developed then so Toei could make the filler arcs and many elements he made and are mentioned in the guidebooks were first mentioned and used in the Anime much earlier than the manga.
So for certain stuff, if Toriyama came up with it, they are going to consider it as an official element. According to the producers of DB Kakarot that is why they were calling the game "the true story" as it was made using just the notes coming from Toriyama.
There's of course a nuanced limit between the projects and we can't be 100% they were always faithful to it, but certain elements of the worldview as depicted in the anime were notes creates by Toriyama himself he would later use in the manga and update for the guidebooks.
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Agree with thisEven in a guide book, the suguroku space is also mentioned, which is something that was introduced in GT.
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"side stories" and "spin off" are very different things.
Guacamolefletcher
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you're massively strawmanning the point, man. That was never anyone's argument. What matters is what the wall says.
Guacamolefletcher
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This is actually wrong, because they had already dropped Battle of Gods
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Which guide does this come from? I think if it's something like, say, Daizenshuu, it'd be a lot stronger evidence than say, some video game guide. (Though those often are consistent with the cosmology as well, like the one that broke down Otherworld.)Even in a guide book, the suguroku space is also mentioned, which is something that was introduced in GT.
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Chozenshuu
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That's from Chozenshuu 4 (basically an updated Daizenshuu), we've already used it in past cosmology revisions
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- Thread starter
- #171
Nullflowerblush
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Nah, nah, Nekomajin is canon, too.
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Is anyone gonna address this?
I think there are valid points that should be addressedThat's a really shallow nitpick of a minor wording choice by the translator, "could say" can also be meant in the sense that it's actually able to be taken that way.
Anyway, in the raw version, the statement's "平行世界的な出来事といえる "which is "can be said it's events of a parallel world." The phrase といえる means moreso "can be said" in the sense of being able to do so, not really in a speculative sense, especially given the context here.
といえる (examples)
And I'm pretty sure Toeiverse is considered canon to all the movies, even if the vice versa isn't always true (i.e. Movie 8 LSSJ Broly is it's own dimension and not part of Toeiverse, but the vice versa up to that point is true).
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dude, it was decided in another thread that the wall is not usable since it is saying that gt is in the same timeline as dbs as the future of it, you would be better dropping this point and focusing on the other points
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here's your side story bro (non canon cause you can't prove it's the same cosmology btw)
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- Thread starter
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Different contexts. This is a side story that actually gives information to the existing story. The other "side stories" do not take place within the continuity but instead tell a completely different story.
here's your side story bro (non canon cause you can't prove it's the same cosmology btw)
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Doing alot of extrapolating- assuming there buddy. Can you prove to me without a shadow of a doubt that this side story happened exactly in this matter? Otherwise, there just isn't enough evidence to convince me.
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- Thread starter
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It's a manga written by Akira Toriyama which takes place in Trunks future timeline and is published IN THE DRAGON BALL MANGA. Entirely separate context. This isn't the gotcha moment you were hoping for.
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Side stories that were verbatim stated and implied to take place in an alternate timeline.
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The section it's from is literally just the updated revised modern version of Daizenshuu "worldview" segment, which is clearly about the canon world. It's talking about the fact the Sugoroku Space and RoSaT are confirmed to exist within what's this canon location (space between dimensions), meaning the Sugoroku Space's canon.
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Akira Toriyama? You mean that one audience member? What about him?
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I'm not gonna entertain your snide remarks.
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Several films are inherently reliant on canon, though? Dead Zone (Original DB Series), both the Cooler Films (Namek Saga), Super 13 (Android Saga), Bojack (Cell Saga), and Fusion Reborn (Buu Saga). With other films, like Lord Slug's, make blatant mentions to canon events-Such as Frieza and the Legend of the SSJ, and even the previous film, Tree of Might (via both through King Kai's exposition and Lord Slug's mind reading), and there's the initial Broly film, (which the other 2 Broly films directly follow/are at least retroactively canon), makes a direct reference to a Cosmological Fact in the Daizenshuu/Chouzenshuu (The South Quadrant of the Universe). Mind you, when pointed out in this way, this makes at least like 11 if the films have direct references to cosmology (that parallel canon's cosmology) or canon events (that strongly implies the cosmology is the same as those canon events are about).
Edit: That's not to claim that Manga chapter is the same as these films. That's to say the idea of "that story relies on the existing story," is a weak counter when cosmologically speaking, the films reliant on canon should be totally fine by this logic, and as most are you'd be creating exceptions just because.
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Serlock_Holmes
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Everyone don't resort to being passive aggressive. Just state your arguments and the staff will decide.
PrinceofPein
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Does the DB anime and manga use the same cosmology?
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do or don't. the euphrates river will dry up before some of these mods ever switch their stance on a DB downgrade thread no matter what evidence is presented, and the sun shall rise from the west the day maverick provides something beyond a 'I agree FRA' in a DB downgrade thread.
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This is what I'm talking about, "side story" is something that IS happening alongside the main plot in the same fictional world, it's something completely different from a spin off.
here's your side story bro (non canon cause you can't prove it's the same cosmology btw)
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you talking in general or dbs anime/manga?
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Spit
PrinceofPein
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If possible answer in general and for DBS
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I mean they have the same cosmological structure but if you’re referring to canonicity like if they’re MWI timelines
That's a really shallow nitpick of a minor wording choice by the translator, "could say" can also be meant in the sense that it's actually able to be taken that way.
Anyway, in the raw version, the statement's "平行世界的な出来事といえる "which is "can be said it's events of a parallel world." The phrase といえる means moreso "can be said" in the sense of being able to do so, not really in a speculative sense, especially given the context here.
といえる (examples)
And I'm pretty sure Toeiverse is considered canon to all the movies, even if the vice versa isn't always true (i.e. Movie 8 LSSJ Broly is it's own dimension and not part of Toeiverse, but the vice versa up to that point is true).
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They do.
When it comes to the Macrocosm, anyway.
Things like the Multiverse (Uni 1-12 and the Hypertimeline) are Super-only additions.
Everything else is identical, short obviously the insignifcant pocket dimensional spaces.
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Kinda. The cosmology was first made by Toriyama for the anime as Toei needed more content for the filler sections in the Otherworld sections, that is when Toriyama came up with various locations and places for the Otherworld and the lore for the Kais. After he did that, he made mentions of those additions in the manga. When the Daizenshuu was released, he decided to update that with the new locations he made during the Bu Arc.
Technically, it started from the general places in the manga without a lot of content, Toriyama gave his notes to Toei so they could use them in the Otherworld arc, and then he decided to mention those things in the manga.
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Honestly, I’ve been through like 20 different threads now regarding the shared cosmology. I’m not saying I blindly agree with how that stuff is applied to Dragon Ball on the wiki currently, but I’ve seen too much evidence in favour of the shared cosmology
I disagree with the OP’s proposals
I disagree with the OP’s proposals
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Right, and that same map he drew for the Anime got applied to his manga as well. I think it's safe to say that regardless of this parallel world MWI stuff, that alone makes the Anime and Manga cosmologies built the same.
Edit: Don't we already accept this detail anyway?
Edit: Don't we already accept this detail anyway?
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there are statements and showings in the Anime dbz that do not exist(as in not mentioned) in the original manga, such as heaven being as big as a universe, the dimensional walls being the fabric of space time, the afterlife and kaioshin realm being separated space times, etc, for the manga there is also stuff that is never mentioned in the toei anime, like the 12 universes, zeno's pallace/dimension, the other Rooms of spirit and time introduced recently, the Dimension of swirling lights shown in the DBS broly movie, etc, that is about all important things said in one that is not mentioned in the other, altho the current argument is that if they should still be aplicable to one another regardless, i have not been keeping up with the current arguments enough to summarize them however, sorry for that
For DBS.........it is weird, like, both dbs manga and anime are considered equal canon continuations of the db manga, so by all accounts, what one shows apply to the OG DB manga, which in turn applies to the other, that is how it always was on the wiki, i have not been there was this was decided, so apologies for not being able to explain things further
PrinceofPein
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Ah I understand the arguments are kind of all over the place.
As long as a place seen the anime is mentioned in the source material with no retcon or discrepancies, then it should be enough to say its canon especially if they are based on the author's notes.
Another question, why do we treat the anime characters and same manga characters as different if they are supposed to be the same persons.
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the DBS manga and anime heavily differentiate both in narrative and powers
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In terms of OG-Z, there was added filler in a lot of scenes that re-contextualized/changed the anime from the original manga, with GT following THOSE events with the anime movies (that are non-canon events that cannot fit in the timeline) are canon to it ("it" being GT).
Which means that the Anime is simply not the same as the Original Manga.
In terms of Super, the Manga and Anime go over similar events (BoG-ToP), but go about them critically differently even if they have the same major plot beats. For example, Goku breaking through the Timeskip in the Anime was a feat for Goku, as he was "breaking into the future/viewing events ahead," via the SSB Kaioken (as vague as that is) compared to simply him predicting attacks from Hit. Hit's abilities, as far as we know, has no given limit. And later, when Jiren broke through it, it was described as "time itself has no hold on Jiren/Jiren transcends time."
In the MANGA, this is simply not the case. Hit's abilities are distinctly PL limited. Goku was able to get through with just SSG, and because Hit's ability is PL limited, Jiren simply was approached differently. Hit applied his powers in a unique way (Time Lag) to get around his weakness, and even then it did not fully bypass it. The same events occur (Goku and Jiren beating the TS), but how it's GONE ABOUT are totally different.
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