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Gonna have to disagree with the OP. The counter arguments are compelling and I haven't seem them really addressed.
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Uncompositing the Dragon Ball Cosmology
- Thread starter BestMGQScalerEver
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PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,053
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This would go against shared cosmology, or am I missing something?
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No, the Universe is still very clearly the same. The difference is simply the events the characters go through to achieve the same plot beats.
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A contradiction i just thought off, isn't the way hell works kind of different in the toei continuity? In that people who go to hell kind of just, lay arround there with no much restriction, and no matter where you die you go to the same division of hell
While in dbs it is shown that those who do not repent their actions are send to their own personal hell and yemma and freeza implies that each planet has its own hell, with the planet destroyed also destroying the respective hell
Dunno if this means much, but it is one thing i think it is important to address either way
While in dbs it is shown that those who do not repent their actions are send to their own personal hell and yemma and freeza implies that each planet has its own hell, with the planet destroyed also destroying the respective hell
Dunno if this means much, but it is one thing i think it is important to address either way
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The nature is the same, but some of the mechanics are different, like the art style, and with the planets taking up a SECTION of hell. Doesn't really change anything. You still have to get to hell by dying, and, or special transportation.
DivineAura44
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Don't these 2 interpretations of Hell also occur in the Z Manga and Super? This would imply Super doesn't continue from original as well.
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I think that was all just done to make sense of how Super completely retconned King Yemma's role in general, where it was changed so that only those who die on Earth come to his Check-In Station. DBS's inner workings of Hell contradicts the original manga as well, where all living things in the universe came to him.
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Sort of? Even though each planet has their own Hell now, it's still a whole larger realm in the Daizenshuu, (with allegedly all the planets in the Uni having their own Hell/Being equal to the Uni in size). There's even layers to it, now, such as an Ice Hell, and a Fire Hell if we go by Super. The problem is even if the actual mechanics are different, we know for certain it is of comparable size to the one in the Anime anyway, and even without the Anime the Daizenshuu/Chozenshuu makes it pretty clear it's still as large as we currently have it rated as. So it's functionally identical.
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I think the planets might just be separate sections of hell, but yes you're right, its still the same, just the mechanics work differently, like people in hell being free to roam and such. And king yemma's authority.
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Well, it proves that it is different tho, which is the point isn't it?
Not really? I don't remember anything lile this in dbs or the og db manga, in fact, i think we never got to see hell in the manga
Do we have a statement in the og manga saying that?
i was more talking about how the systems hell were different mostly, never heard of that "ice hell and fire hell" part tho
dunno why size is what you are saying when the systems of it also fall under "cosmology" stuff
Hum, hell is currently treated as "unknown" in size, so..........huh
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We never did, however he's not incorrect. As we saw in Namek Saga, the Souls of people in regards to planets only matter in the form of your RESURRECTION. As you will return where you died. Hence why they had to wish Krillin's Soul to Earth before they wished him back. Outside of that, Souls went on to the afterlife all the same.
We see them on the transition to Frieza's Hell. We see a whole larger realm, an ice covered hell, and a fire covered hell, (also an ocean one I think), and then we get to Frieza.
While the systems are different, for relevant scaling purposes and the actual cosmology in question, it's size is at least comparable to the Uni, (which is what we already rate it as). Or to put it another way, whilst there is a Shiny Pikachu and a Normal Pikachu, whilst there IS a difference, on a FUNCTIONAL level for the purposes of the Wiki, they are identical.
I mean, unless we assume it was just all retconned (which there is no evidence of), the estimation of around the size of the Uni should be valid. Possibly larger if those layers happen to be not within that given size range.
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Some mechanics are different, in reference to how there king yemma only has jurisdiction over earths hell, hell still works fundamentally the same, just planets take up different sections of hell, from a cosmological standpoint, its the same.
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Meh, i could still see a point arguing that the cosmolgies are not 2 to 2, but meh at this point
Dude, i redirect you to this https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-universal-space-time-number-downgrade.154540
Hell is currently unknown in size, of course, unless someone makes it be physically in the afterlife, which would make it uni in size, far more i think
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Why is heaven accepted as uni in size but not hell
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why start this conversation in a thread that has nothing to do with it?
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I feel like the opposition is doing a better job here by providing evidence and arguments that are convincing. So I disagree with the OP.
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I explained in great detail why it wasn't evidence, to which the response was basically "you should accept our assumptions anyways." If anyone got away with something, it was whoever got this change made in the first place.
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I seriously disagree with the notion that this was all the response amounted to (frankly, I feel it's seriously undermining the counters), and your sentiment on this as a whole, but I suppose that's your opinion and I've got mine
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You have to be ******* trolling right now, "in great detail"? Don't make me laugh, I can say right now that the only notable thing that you lot have said is that, "toriyama is head canon", and that's not a good thing. You didn't even respond to godofice arguments, and you're just trying to wait the 48hrs out so you can just forcibly close this thread. Don't even get me started on maverick, on every downgrade thread just replies with "agree FRA" and just disappears from the entire thing.
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Keep this civil, you'll shoot yourself in the foot and just give them a reason to shut down the thread
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to not be civil gives you guys less credibility, people will subconciously not want to agree with you even if you are right, so please guys, stay calm, go drink a cup of water, eat some pancakes, just......take a moment to relax, ok? ok
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I get where you're coming from but this ain't gonna get you anywhere, it'd be best to keep things civil
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Apologies
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Hey, can you check out my arguments?
We should be fine DDM and Lonkitt disagree so we’re gonna need more staff input on this it can’t be closed after 48 hours until then and I’ve already asked a couple moderators if they can check this out
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It's too late agents are rapidly approaching your location
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Can you come back again? We have several counterarguments on and Op, please.
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DDM never said he disagreed.
Hasty12345
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I would like to say that I don't think MWI is a defense to the OP's arguments, mostly because I think it's very apparent in DB that it doesn't follow MWI. Based on what I've seen (and I'm happy to be proven wrong) It's made strictly clear that timelines are created when time travel interferes with events.
To use MWI as an in-verse justification would require proof that GT and the movies etc are time rings or have been directly proven to exist due to time travel.
I think the meta justification (author statements) is far stronger and that just because "many worlds" exist, that not prove GT is one of them.
To use MWI as an in-verse justification would require proof that GT and the movies etc are time rings or have been directly proven to exist due to time travel.
I think the meta justification (author statements) is far stronger and that just because "many worlds" exist, that not prove GT is one of them.
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Could you clarify your stance on the thread? As in whether you agree, disagree, or are neutral?
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Yes, all Dragon Ball series share the same cosmology, including games and other Dragon Ball derivatives (including DBH which is no exception, just putting some new unexplored places)
In “Dragon Ball Heroes: 5th Anniversary Guide Book”, Higuchi Wataru (Producer) stated that his intention is to work cooperatively with “Akira Toriyama” and other interested parties to create something that all fans can accept, thus the ability to incorporate “What-If Elements” (ex: Super Dragon Ball Heroes) express the true depth of Dragon Ball.
But yes, anime and manga use the same cosmology, this since Z, it hasn't changed since then.
Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,142
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Now lol. gonna correct this shit. The Hypertimeline already existing since Z, because at the time of Trunks Saga onward, timeline was never used to refering to Macrocosm, Macrocosm, which back then is only one, is refered to as Universe or Macrocosm in both anime, manga and guidebooks, magazines. Timeline is a separate term refered to the entire timeline that contain the Macrocosm. This tradition continue to Super, where they refer to timeline with the term Timeline, Macrocosm as Macrocosm or Universe. What different is, Super expanded more, by include more Macrocosm/Universe, a World of Void, Zeno Palace with a ton of new characters, but nothing from Toei Z and GT got retconned
Actually, it is all the same, the Sudoku Space which was shown in GT also mentioned in guidebook for the whole cosmology for both Manga and Toei, which someone already posted it. So "both" Macrocosm is identical
Anyway i disagree with the thread, there are so many evidences for a shared cosmology, not only that but also all DB games directly composited cosmology of both Toei/GT and Super with Toriyama all approve of those games mean shared cosmology is a thing
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Hasty12345
Username Only- 5,176
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Do we use the games in any of the anime cosmology scaling?
Vietthai96
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The Hypertimeline (The Timeline that contains multiple timelines from the 12 different Unis) was not a thing before. We had simply the MWI given to us in the Androids-Cell Saga. At best you could say a "Hypertimeline" of the multiple Space-Time continuums in U7 existed, but that wasn't what I was referring to at all to begin with, so it's entirely irrelevant. So yes, Super-Only additions/expansions.
Correct. The Macrocosm always existed. Which is what I said, when I referenced the Daizenshuu multiple times and the maps of the Universe created by Toriyama.
Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,142
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Hypertimeline was there already, unless you claim that Macrocosm = Timeline, which was never a thing, because the verse clearly define Timeline as Timeline, Macrocosm as Universe, both term is completely separate and used for two different thing, a Timeline that contain a Macrocosm with multiple space-time within it, the hypertimeline was already there, Super just add more Macrocosm and some more place, that all
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