• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Nasuverse Mega CRT Part 1: 1-A Root

Status
Not open for further replies.

CrimsonStarFallen

VS Battles
Thread Moderator
Messages
12,831
Reaction score
3,997
Introductions
Likely my biggest CRT ever, and the first of many tier 1 shenanigans in Nasuverse. Shoutouts to Ultima, John935, TheUnshakableOne, Regidian, Iapetus and many, many others, either on or off site. This would have been impossible to do alone.

This is the day where my reputation on VSBW dies.
What is The Root?
Put simply, the Root, or the Akashic Records/the Swirl of Origin, is the beginning and end of all things. It's where every phenomena, object, person, soul, concept, origin and boundary originated and where all of them end.

"Funny you should say that, since in a way, that’s what mages are aiming for. Some call it the ‘spiral of origin.’ Others like the ring of ‘The Akashic Records’ better. That grand mass of nothingness. Whatever you want to call it, that’s what they’re after. It’s where everything came from. And if you know where everything came from, you know everything that comes after. It’s not even enough to call it ultimate knowledge. It’s something higher than that. All the different disciplines and paradigms of learning the Art flow from this single, indivisible source. Whether it’s astrology, alchemy, the Kabbalah, Shinsendō, or runes, all their practitioners harbor the same goal. The first fortunate souls that felt its presence dreamed of its potential. It isn’t to sponsor the quest for the meaning of man’s existence, because they already know it. It is to pierce the great lie of this world and find pure truth, whatever form it takes. Mages of the ideal sort cherish only themselves to live a life that will never be rewarded.”- https://emptyboundaries.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/empty-boundaries-volume-3.pdf

“The spiral of origin is
the primordial beginning of all things in this pattern of reality. All things
pass through the great wheel, their natures and their histories—past, pres-
ent, and future—are connected to it. It is thus a vast and empty place. It
reflects what I am, in a way. I am connected to it, and I am a part of it as
well. I am it. Which is why the greatest feats that mages can only dream of
are allowed me. - Kara no kyoukai - Vol 3 -page 227

It is beyond time and space, beyond all boundaries in which no one should be allowed.

"Beyond and below lay only darkness. This void, lifeless place could only mean one thing: I was dead.

Without anything to even clothe me, I, Shiki Ryōgi, floated, and then
sank slowly into the fathomless, lightless sea. There was no end in sight.
There was nothing in sight, neither light, and yes, perhaps even darkness.
This place was only a hollow, where all meaning ceased to be. A stygian
abyss that could not be put into words, and without words it shall remain:
a cypher called, simply, “ ”.
I fell deeper into the “ ”, and my naked body slowly acquired the pallor
of the grave, and it made me want to look away. In my mind, I knew that
everything in this place comes to be the same way.
“Is this death?” I whispered, though it came out so faint, I doubted if it
was even real.
Though time too had no meaning inside “ ”, I observed it. Like a stream
tracing out into the infinite, like the process of decay, I mark it. It was an
eternity. I plunged ever deeper, and cast my eyes farther, and in that eter-
nity, this place was still empty, devoid of anything except me. And yet, it
was all so calm and serene. It feels as if, in this place without meaning, the
fact that I existed at all fits me. Here lay entropy, the end of all things, a
place the living may never observe, but only the dead may enter.
I died. And yet I am still alive. I felt my mind about to lose its grip.
Two years. An instant, stretched out to an eternity. Both are accurate
measures of my time spent in this “ ”. Here, I touched death. Here, I fought
for my life. Here, I awakened." -Kara no kyoukai Vol 2- page 6

Screenshot_20200317-174213_YouTube.jpg

Screenshot_20200317-174246_YouTube.jpg

Screenshot_20200317-174313_YouTube.jpg

Screenshot_20200317-174347_YouTube.jpg

It is even beyond philosophical concepts such as Taiji:

"太極【たいきょく】【その他】
古代中国で生まれた思想、陰陽《おんみょう》説を表す図。
万物の状態を概念的に捉《とら》えたもので、能動的・活動的であるものを陽(白)、その逆になるものを陰(黒)と分けている。
昼と夜、明と暗、雄と雌と相反するものを象徴しながら、影響しあい流れあう世界の縮図とも言える。
また、陽の中には一点の陰、陰の中には一点の陽があるが、これは陰陽の区別は絶対的なものでなく、明の中にも暗がある、という事を示している。
太極は始まりの一であるが、この二つに分かれた陰陽を両儀という。
余談ではあるが、本編における魔術師たちは中国の思想とは相容《あいい 》れない西洋魔術の術師である."

"Taiji [Others]
A philosophy originated in ancient China, a graphical representation of the Yin-Yang theory.
It attempts to capture the essence of everything on a conceptual level: those that are active are defined as Yang (white), and the opposite are defined as Yin (black).
The Taiji symbolizes opposing concepts such as day and night, light and darkness, male and female. At the same time, you may also call it a condensed version of the ever-changing, dynamic World.
Furthermore, there is a dot of Yin in Yang, and conversely a dot of Yang in Yin. This indicates that the distinction between Yin and Yang is not absolute. There is darkness even in light.
Taiji is the "one" at the beginning, the Yin and Yang that divide the "one" are called Liangyi (Ryougi). " - Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Taiji [Others], p.035
mTQbsCp.jpg

Now, onto solid tiering.

Higher Dimensions
It's no secret that higher dimensions are present in the Nasuverse. Avalon's 6th dimensional interference, BB's 8th dimensional wall, souls being higher dimensional, Imaginary Space Number. However, there have never been any attempts to contextualize how Higher Dimensions work in the Nasuverse.

Turns out, doing so is quite simple, thanks to C.C.C
Screenshot_20201127-173236_Discord-2.jpg

Screenshot_20201127-173130_Discord-1.jpg

Rin explains that higher dimensions are like "recorded universes", and by using INS's 4 dimensional nature, BB manages to see every facet of the 3 dimensional world, past, present and future as the same thing, as a book that she can read. That's a higher dimensional perspective, and it extends across every higher dimension, as shown in Fate/Strange Fake, where Zelretch saw all timelines as pages in a book.
unknown-21-1.png

Now, let's not discuss what this affects in the big picture, that can be discussed in another CRT that I will make something after this is finished. For now, let's discuss how this affects the Root.

One might think it would be pretty obvious. BB saw up to 8 dimensions, the Root transcends it and is at least 9 dimensional. However, it is far more potent than that, for the Root controls dimensional theory itself.
image0-10-1-1-2.jpg

Not only that, it is a metaphysical force that exists beyond this world, outside of and at the apex of dimensional theory.
Screenshot_20201205-215152_Drive.jpg

akasha.jpg

"According to mystery, there is "power" at the top of all dimensional theories outside of this world.

Coordinates that are the origin of every event. It is, "the vortex of origin" long-cherished wish serving all of the magician...... in the beginning of all things, and The end. The throne of God that can record everything in this world and create everything in this world."

神秘学の語るところによれば、この世界の外側には次元論の頂点に在る“力”があるという。

あらゆる出来事の発端とされる座標。それが、すべての魔術師の悲願たる『根源の渦』……万物の始まりにして終焉しゅうえん、この世の全てを記録し、この世の全てを創造できるという神の座である。

https://sai-zen-sen.jp/works/fictions/fate-zero/02/01.html"

So not only does the Root control the dimensional theory and what it is, it exists completely outside of it, independent of its definitions. Just as the Luminous Being, this would place it at 1-A, as it's level of existence is independent of the "layers" it exists outside of, being consistent regardless of how they are altered, be it to higher or lower levels.

However, that is not all.
It Cannot Be The " "
There is one major "mechanic" to the Root, or " " that has not been explored yet. The fact that whatever descriptions attached to it are not " ". All was created from it, including logic, and all logic that is applied to "it" cannot be "it", as it was created from "it".

"「 」 [Others]
If you really wished to pronounce this term, call it "Kara".
Its meaning varied depending on each individual's understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin.
However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer ' '.
To properly express this term was a source of headache during the production of the drama CDs."-https://www.tmdict.com/en/ka.-

Even " " does not represent " ", for it is a notion crafted by our logic.
aT0Pr8t.jpg

That which has names should not be in the Root, as it is a place without boundaries, and a power of true "emptiness".

To put it in simpler terms, the Root exists beyond any ontological descriptions / categories and extensions, making it 1-A.
Conclusion
The Root/Swirl of Origin/Akasha/Heaven/Kara/Source of many headaches is a 1-A power beyond everything in the Nasuverse. However, those whose hax scales to it do exist.

But as you may imagine, just making the Root this level is already a controversial enough topic. Part 2 of this thread will cover those who scale to it as well as other higher dimensional shenanigans thanks to the contextualization given in this thread.

For now, only those who would scale are those who are already accepted to have "Root tier" hax, which is pretty much only Void Shiki and Unified Language.

This would also lead to the creation of a Root page, seen here. Now, while the Root isn't exactly a character, it does seem to have a will, as seen by Void Shiki, who has stated she is literally the Root before. Besides, things like this are allowed to exist if characters make use of it and it is important for higher tiers.
 
This appears to be born at least in part due to a misunderstanding of what Dimensional Theory is.

Dimensional Theory deals with actually scientific theories about the dimensionality of our cosmology and the nature of the dimensions within it. This is not Infinite Dimensional, this is simply 11-D in accordance with M-Theory.
It also does not say it is beyond dimensions altogether in the first place.

神秘学の語るところによれば、この世界の外側には次元論の頂点に在る“力”があるという。
あらゆる出来事の発端とされる座標。それが、すべての魔術師の悲願たる『根源の渦』……万物の始まりにして終焉しゅうえん、この世の全てを記録し、この世の全てを創造できるという神の座である。

The term used here is 頂点 which refers to a peak or summit or vertex. Not something beyond, but rather something still part of it, but just at a point where nothing is higher. This still only supports the idea of Eleven Dimensions at maximum..

(Will continue in next message)
 
@Zoey_of_Scadrial

Just to point out, you are basically using the inverse argument people use to try to upgrade verses automatically to 11D based on mentions of dimensional theory. Unless wiki standards have heavily shifted in my absence, it talking about dimensional theory does not have to default to that, nor does it. Also unless I am missing a point in the CRT, the actual count of dimensions doesn't really influence his argument
 
Exactly what Iap said. The actual number of dimensions doesn't matter thanks to it controling. The latter point is more important anyway.

Either way take your time.
 
From what I know, Nasu hasn't hinted anything about containing infinite spatial dimension. A character controlling the dimensional theory of the verse wouldn't qualify for 1-A. And I also believe the dimensional theory refers to the M-theory.
 
None of the scans, nor my posts ever mention M-Theory or infinite dimensions. The point is that regardless of what "dimensional theory" is, the Root would always stay on top.
 
From what I know, Nasu hasn't hinted anything about containing infinite spatial dimension. A character controlling the dimensional theory of the verse wouldn't qualify for 1-A. And I also believe the dimensional theory refers to the M-theory.
Just a polite reminder that a verse does not need infinite dimensions to have 1-A characters
 
From what I know, Nasu hasn't hinted anything about containing infinite spatial dimension. A character controlling the dimensional theory of the verse wouldn't qualify for 1-A. And I also believe the dimensional theory refers to the M-theory.
You don't need anymore infinite spatial dimmension proof for 1-A, for the rest dimmensionnal theory is not only about M- theory and i don't understand what it should refer to that (nasuverse don't follow string theory or not even mention it for how much i remember)
 
None of the scans, nor my posts ever mention M-Theory or infinite dimensions. The point is that regardless of what "dimensional theory" is, the Root would always stay on top.
Is it the root event that it is higher than all dimensions that could arise?
 
Have no knowledge of the verse but which of the scans describe dimensions as infinitely superior to each other? I can't really seem to navigate the OP that well.
 
Some scans seem (this is the key word here, since I don’t know if they are more meaningful in terms of 1-A tiering under a better translation or explanation) kinda vapid, although I’m neutral on the proposals as a whole.

The multiple scans that reference The Root being talked about by/ described within/ the highest of within these “dimensional theories” don’t really indicate transcendence of any reasonable in-verse conception of how many dimensions there could be, just that within those theories The Root is implied and implied at some highest level, or on the case of the third scan related to some coordinate (if anything it being described within those theories shows immanence of some nature, even if it is extra dimensional due to being “outside of our world” and whatnot).

If you were to use those scans in conjunction with the “ “ ones to say how dimensional theories which can fluctuate due to being “governed” exist in Nasuverse, with any of these theories by nature not being able to do describe The Root or disregard the accused 3 scans entirely then that seems more reasonable.
 
This appears to be born at least in part due to a misunderstanding of what Dimensional Theory is.

Dimensional Theory deals with actually scientific theories about the dimensionality of our cosmology and the nature of the dimensions within it. This is not Infinite Dimensional, this is simply 11-D in accordance with M-Theory.
It also does not say it is beyond dimensions altogether in the first place.



The term used here is 頂点 which refers to a peak or summit or vertex. Not something beyond, but rather something still part of it, but just at a point where nothing is higher. This still only supports the idea of Eleven Dimensions at maximum..

(Will continue in next message)
Along with this there is ideas given of the Root in fact being finite,

しかしそれを際限なく行うと宇宙の寿命が尽きてしまう為、一定のタイミングで「もっとも強く、安定性を持ったルート」から外れた特例の世界ルートを伐採し、エネルギーの無駄な消費を防いできた。

This states that the World cannot deal with an infinite amount of universes, which is questionable if it is apparently very beyond description and ineffably infinite.

残念だがそれはない。
間違ってしまった世界の顛末を増やすために使うエネルギーは、
この次元には存在しない。
このように、
増え続ける並行世界はいずれ次元の容量を超えてしまう。

With this stating that there is not enough energy to allow infinite worlds to exist. Which further puts into question the idea of it truly being ineffable as said here:

仮《かり》に読み方をつけるとしたら、から。
受け取り方は人それぞれ。端的に分かりやすくいうのなら、根源の渦。
が、根源の渦は根源の渦、という名前がある為、やはり「 」とは別物である。

This says that [ ] is the Spiral of the Root, though it technically cannot be called that. This is more of a technicallity than it is stating it to be a seperate existence from the Spiral.
This idea of them being the same doesn't work, due to the finite nature of the Root as described in Extella and Grand Order. But it is a better solution than the idea of it being two seperate existences, due to this going against "端的に分かりやすくいうのなら、根源の渦."
 
The World not having or having infinite universes has nothing to do with [ ] tho...

Those are completely unrelated parts of the cosmology unless something has heavily changed in the past year
 
If you were to use those scans in conjunction with the “ “ ones to say how dimensional theories which can fluctuate due to being “governed” exist in Nasuverse, with any of these theories by nature not being able to do describe The Root or disregard the accused 3 scans entirely then that seems more reasonable.
That would be the idea, yeah. The coordinate thing is actually a translation error lol.
Have no knowledge of the verse but which of the scans describe dimensions as infinitely superior to each other? I can't really seem to navigate the OP that well.
I mean, it's the first scan in that section, the one where Rin speaks.

@Zoey

What are you talking about? This entire post falls apart when you consider the fact that "the Root" is not "the World", the World is Gaia, Alaya, Earth.

The Root is even called the Outside of the World.
 
Anywho, is there a scan showing this "dimensional theory" refers to large spatial dimensions?

Edit: Will check the first scan.
 
Shouldn't lovecraftian higher dimensional (高次元生命体, kou-jigen seimeitai) Outer Gods (外なる神, Sotonaru Kami) be mentioned, if everything in Nasuverse is part of the root?

"They are removed of the Common Sense of Man, the laws of physics, the principles of magecraft, and from human mentality, making it normally impossible to interact or communicate with them without being driven hopelessly insane or worse." - https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Outer_God
 
I hope you're not suggesting that Nasuverse would cross-scale with the Cthulhu Mythos. Because we don't do that at all.
 
I think he's trying to say that they provide more proof to the higher d part, maybe

Either way, I've seen this stuff and the talks about it before, so I also agree
 
Anyway, I've re-read the scans and it seems that the higher dimensions in the setting are treated as having ontological superiority to lower ones. As such, The Root being the source of all concepts and beings, including those of space and time as well as dimensionality itself should be enough to prove that it's superior to dimensions on any level.

As such, I agree with the upgrade of The Root to 1-A for now.
 
Along with this there is ideas given of the Root in fact being finite,
This states that the World cannot deal with an infinite amount of universes, which is questionable if it is apparently very beyond description and ineffably infinite.


間違ってしまった世界の顛末を増やすために使うエネルギーは、
この次元には存在しない。

増え続ける並行世界はいずれ次元の容量を超えてしまう。

With this stating that there is not enough energy to allow infinite worlds to exist. Which further puts into question the idea of it truly being ineffable as said here:



This says that [ ] is the Spiral of the Root, though it technically cannot be called that. This is more of a technicallity than it is stating it to be a seperate existence from the Spiral.
This idea of them being the same doesn't work, due to the finite nature of the Root as described in Extella and Grand Order. But it is a better solution than the idea of it being two seperate existences, due to this going against "端的に分かりやすくいうのなら、根源の渦."
It seems to be described as outer-worldly so I don’t get the first argument unless you are talking about how the things it transcends being finite (which tbf, according to hypothetical west of loathing tiers could make The Root High 1-B).

“That would be the idea, yeah. The coordinate thing is actually a translation error lol.”
Hm, well the descriptions of the scans, the comparison to the luminous being and its presentation as a different argument from the “ “ one lead me to believe otherwise but that’s fine if it is the case.
 
@Planck69

not cross-scale since Outer Gods in VSBattles are 1-A themself. In Nasuverse, they are higher dimensional lifeform (高次元生命体) making it impossible for earthlings to interact or communicate with them. This sounds like higher spatial dimension (like 1-C?) to me.

Also i agree with the CRT
 
I think so far Plank makes the most sense, so as per Plank’s explanation I agree with the upgrade atm.
 
Along with this there is ideas given of the Root in fact being finite,

It seems to be described as outer-worldly so I don’t get the first argument unless you are talking about how the things it transcends being finite (which tbf, according to hypothetical west of loathing tiers could make The Root High 1-B).

“That would be the idea, yeah. The coordinate thing is actually a translation error lol.”
Hm, well the descriptions of the scans, the comparison to the luminous being and its presentation as a different argument from the “ “ one lead me to believe otherwise but that’s fine if it is the case.
In first [ ] transcend finite and Infinite

"Infinity is not “ ”. In order to render infinity, one must define limits. Without limits, infinity does not exist. Infinity can be observed because objects possess limits. Ryougi Shiki was immersed in infinity, but found the non-existent limit and severed it.
Of course, limits do not exist within infinity, thus one cannot sever something that does not exist. As a result, escaping from this prison is impossible.
However -- - without limits, infinity does not exist. Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki.
If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Rougi would find it and cut away everything.
…. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself." -Kara no kyoukai
 
This here is basically some Ain Soph/Ein Sof stuff which is basically boundlessness


https://www.jstor.org/stable/41681753?seq=1

“ ”
#
report error
other
If you really wished to pronounce this term, call it “Kara.”
Its meaning varied depending on each individual’s understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin.
However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer “ ”.
To properly express this term was a source of headache during the production of the drama CDs.

 
In first [ ] transcend finite and Infinite

"Infinity is not “ ”. In order to render infinity, one must define limits. Without limits, infinity does not exist. Infinity can be observed because objects possess limits. Ryougi Shiki was immersed in infinity, but found the non-existent limit and severed it.
Of course, limits do not exist within infinity, thus one cannot sever something that does not exist. As a result, escaping from this prison is impossible.
However -- - without limits, infinity does not exist. Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki.
If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Rougi would find it and cut away everything.
…. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself." -Kara no kyoukai
I mean comment to Zoey, not me
 
Take a shot everytime someone brings up something unrelated to this revision. Fun challenge.

I mean, i guess the Root kinda is like the Ain Soph, but like
There's no need to bring it up.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top