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DMC Downgrade #2: Hax Edition

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If you’re not gonna make a CRT that everyone here has told you to do, then tough shit, you’re not convincing anyone here that gameplay in its entirety is not canon.

Absolute Zero stays regardless of the standard change, we have flat out showings of the frost demons being capable of freezing their foes on top of their lore saying the temperatures around them are below absolute zero. On top of Dante’s Ifrit gloves being capable of melting them in DMC 1, So absolute zero resistance stays for Dante.
 
Theglassman12 said:
If you’re not gonna make a CRT that everyone here has told you to do, then tough shit, you’re not convincing anyone here that gameplay in its entirety is not canon.
Click to expand...
I mean, how about you? What were you all based on when you said "gameplay is canon" and added this shit? It surely wasn't a standard so what was it?

Theglassman12 said:
Absolute Zero stays regardless of the standard change, we have flat out showings of the frost demons being capable of freezing their foes
Click to expand...
Yes they have to freeze them in AZ for that to count. Can you prove that that ice is AZ temperature?
Theglassman12 said:
on top of their lore saying the temperatures around them are below absolute zero.
Click to expand...
Not the temperature of ppl when hit by them.
Theglassman12 said:
On top of Dante’s Ifrit gloves being capable of melting them in DMC 1, So absolute zero resistance stays for Dante.
Click to expand...
It's impressive how you use this as an argument like any sort of AZ is not weak to heat. You are impressively out of touch with these things my guy.

Also i assume you dropped the resistance to matter manip since you didn't bring it up?
 
Firephoenixearl said:
I mean, how about you? What were you all based on when you said "gameplay is canon" and added this shit? It surely wasn't a standard so what was it?
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Well, if you are not going to make a CTR, than we don't need to continues this argument case closed.
Firephoenixearl said:
Yes they have to freeze them in AZ for that to count. Can you prove that that ice is AZ temperature?
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Why would they be freezing Dante in a temperature below AZ for start? Since they even state that they claws is so cold that can make the entire air around than AZ
Firephoenixearl said:
Not the temperature of ppl when hit by them.
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Proof that they freezing in a temperature that is not AZ?

Also going to mention that even fodder demons are unaffected by being in ice rooms made by King Cerberus and King Cerberus is capable to manipulate ice up to reaching absolute zero
 
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Tbh these statements make me agree on AZ staying here, Sub Zero the 1st was stated in a manual to have AZ producing temps with his ice so I'm leaning on DMC having it here given the frequent mentions in these sources
 
Mister6ame6 said:
Well, if you are not going to make a CTR, than we don't need to continues this argument case closed.
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Argument closed in my win? Who said you decide the rules here? If you cannot prove the gameplay is canon then it just remains non canon. Simple as that, there are games out there with canon gameplay which is why some game verses do have it as canon. Can you prove the same for DMC? If not you applied it in a wrong.
Mister6ame6 said:
Why would they be freezing Dante in a temperature below AZ for start? Since they even state that they claws is so cold that can make the entire air around than AZ
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Above AZ, not below.
Mister6ame6 said:
Proof that they freezing in a temperature that is not AZ?
Click to expand...
Science
Mister6ame6 said:
Also going to mention that even fodder demons are unaffected by being in ice rooms made by King Cerberus and King Cerberus is capable to manipulate ice up to reaching absolute zero
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Explained like 3 times that it doesn't give them resistance cus the AZ would get hotter making it just resistance to cold temperatures.
 
It's common sense that the gameplay that takes place between cutscenes is canon. Also no I dropped the topic of matter manipulation because Donttalk said to include it onto the pages, so therefore there's nothing left to discuss on the matter manipulation on this thread, continue this on his message wall since you wanted to debate with him on the matter stuff as you kept asking.

Read the scans I showed you, the second scan literally says they have temperatures below absolute zero

Getting hit isn't the point, being frozen happened and they can break out of it. The standard only changed the fact that merely getting hit by an absolute zero weapon doesn't count, but being frozen and breaking out would counts as resistance for AZ.

Did you bother reading the scan at all? Cause it literally said higher realms of incendiary fire can melt them, while volcanic fire is unable to affect them, that alone proves it's not normal ice that can melt easily.
 
Earl you have everyone showing evidence after evidence, and your only argument is "But gameplay mechanics", when everyone has told you time after time again that "gameplay mechanics" is not a factor that is soley tied to DMC but most Video Game characters on the entire wiki. Your logic would affect them at large.
 
AogiriKira said:
Earl you have everyone showing evidence after evidence, and your only argument is "But gameplay mechanics", when everyone has told you time after time again that "gameplay mechanics" is not a factor that is soley tied to DMC but most Video Game characters on the entire wiki. Your logic would affect them at large.
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Wait when did i say gameplay mechanics?
 
Theglassman12 said:
It's common sense that the gameplay that takes place between cutscenes is canon
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No cus i've shown you how it can directly contradict the cutscenes.

Theglassman12 said:
Also no I dropped the topic of matter manipulation because Donttalk said to include it onto the pages, so therefore there's nothing left to discuss on the matter manipulation on this thread, continue this on his message wall since you wanted to debate with him on the matter stuff as you kept asking.
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He literally never said to include matter manip. Quote where he said that.

Theglassman12 said:
Read the scans I showed you, the second scan literally says they have temperatures below absolute zero
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Yes, the frost's weapons have that temperature not the temperature of the ppl when they're frozen.

Theglassman12 said:
Getting hit isn't the point, being frozen happened and they can break out of it. The standard only changed the fact that merely getting hit by an absolute zero weapon doesn't count, but being frozen and breaking out would counts as resistance for AZ.
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9th grade physics kicking in again. Being hit by AZ doesn't count whether you're frozen or not. What needs to be proven is that you're frozen in AZ. If you knew anything about 9th grade physics you'd understand why?
 
Firephoenixearl said:
No cus i've shown you how it can directly contradict the cutscenes.


He literally never said to include matter manip. Quote where he said that.


Yes, the frost's weapons have that temperature not the temperature of the ppl when they're frozen.


9th grade physics kicking in again. Being hit by AZ doesn't count whether you're frozen or not. What needs to be proven is that you're frozen in AZ. If you knew anything about 9th grade physics you'd understand why?
Click to expand...
Go make a gameplay CRT then. Also calm it down.
 
You're so adamant about gameplay not being taken into account, and this isn't a DMC specific issue. Go make a wiki wide CRT. I'll wait.
 
AogiriKira said:
You're so adamant about gameplay not being taken into account, and this isn't a DMC specific issue. Go make a wiki wide CRT. I'll wait.
Click to expand...
Not really, a lot of games would have no issues with gameplay being canon. DMC has cus gameplay can contradict the actual canon (cutscenes).
 
Via one instance of him using a barrier over the numerous instances in the entire series of dante getting hit by any attacks from fodder and comparable foes, you need more evidence than that to prove that it's contradicting what Dante can do.

He said to include the particle beams into the page, so you're not removing the particle beams from either pages unless you can disprove it being particle beams to begin with

Where are you getting the idea that it's not the same temperature when there's nothing in the lore that states the ice changes temperature?

And I've proven they get frozen by the same ice demons with absolute zero ice, and stop with this 9th grade physics comment and actually debunk the ice being beyond absolute zero. If all you're gonna do is just say 9th grade physics and not give any scans whatsoever then you have nothing to argue here.

No this isn't a DMC case, your "losing 30 times to a boss fight" argument applies to any game where you can lose. Considering everyone here has told you this same thing, you're not gonna convince anyone at all. Get a better argument and drop this nonsense now. If you keep making the same comment on gameplay being not canon with no attempt to make a CRT then I'll just ignore the comment, or if the remaining arguments you're gonna make on the rest of your downgrade is hinging on gameplay being not canon then I'll just close this thread since no one's buying it in the slightest.
 
@Blue if you check on the OP, all the red text at the end is not gonna be removed. The only thing that’s gonna be removed is Yamato via BFR. Everything else is either still in discussion or debunked.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Via one instance of him using a barrier over the numerous instances in the entire series of dante getting hit by any attacks from fodder and comparable foes, you need more evidence than that to prove that it's contradicting what Dante can do.
Click to expand...
I can name other times gameplay can contradict cutscenes. As i said, if you do DMC3 2nd vergil no damage that would directly contradict the lore. Just a random example out of a literal infinite examples that could be made. What you do in gameplay isn't what happens, otherwise we wouldn't have things like the one i stated above.

Theglassman12 said:
He said to include the particle beams into the page, so you're not removing the particle beams from either pages unless you can disprove it being particle beams to begin with
Click to expand...
What i am removing is "resistance to matter manip". No matter the conclusion on the feat, that is going.

Theglassman12 said:
And I've proven they get frozen by the same ice demons with absolute zero ice, and stop with this 9th grade physics comment and actually debunk the ice being beyond absolute zero. If all you're gonna do is just say 9th grade physics and not give any scans whatsoever then you have nothing to argue here.
Click to expand...
They get frozen by getting hit by the AZ ice. Which wouldn't freeze them in AZ, that's not how physics work. https://vsbattles.com/threads/absolute-zero-standards-revision.50463/. For it to count you have to be cooled down to AZ, Kep makes a good job at explaining why you need to have it be specifically stated to work.

Theglassman12 said:
No this isn't a DMC case, your "losing 30 times to a boss fight" argument applies to any game where you can lose. Considering everyone here has told you this same thing, you're not gonna convince anyone at all.
Click to expand...
Yeah, games like KatanaZERO, or Dead Cells have that as canon. You dying tons of times. So it would not matter to them. Such games to exist. However you saying "you get hit by X attack and lose isn't an argument" but use "i got hit by X attack" as a canon event, just doesn't work for you man. Double standard out here.

Theglassman12 said:
If you keep making the same comment on gameplay being not canon with no attempt to make a CRT then I'll just ignore the comment, or if the remaining arguments you're gonna make on the rest of your downgrade is hinging on gameplay being not canon then I'll just close this thread since no one's buying it in the slightest.
Click to expand...
Oi, "no one is buying it" is not reasoning. That's called appeal to popularity. I've explained several times why i don't have to make a CRT. All im listening from you all though is "oh but ppl do this". Not all gameplay is non canon, similarly to how not all gameplay is canon. It's case by case. Prove your case is canon. That's all im asking.
 
Earl this line of logic is not even accepted on the wiki. It doesn't matter how many times you tell me that's how you think it is in terms of gameplay and what's canon or not. This is practically the same type of logic you used to justify removing all the royal guard feats in the DMC speed downgrade thread, and everyone there that read the entire discussion agreed that it being gameplay meant jack shit because the feat is something that happens regardless if it's gameplay or not. This is not how things work here, so your argument doesn't work whatsoever. So either make a CRT to change how we already dictate what's considered canon or not, or stop arguing this entirely. If you're going to keep bringing up the same points that no one buys for the slightest without any CRTs to get the wiki to accept, or if you're not going to talk about a different topic, I will close this thread. This is your last warning.

Being frozen by definition cools you down to whatever temperature the ice is to begin with. And that thread again does not debunk the AZ resistance Dante gets. Because he's not just getting hit, he's getting frozen by the frost demons with absolute zero ice. Regardless you bringing up the standard, which I'm already aware of, does not change anything because everything about the frost demons points to absolute zero resistance being legit.
 
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Firephoenixearl said:
They get frozen by getting hit by the AZ ice. Which wouldn't freeze them in AZ, that's not how physics work. https://vsbattles.com/threads/absolute-zero-standards-revision.50463/. For it to count you have to be cooled down to AZ, Kep makes a good job at explaining why you need to have it be specifically stated to work.
Click to expand...
Uuuhhh.....page itself mentions getting frozen by AZ is legit....and so should resistance for surviving it!?!?
At this point you are stone walling and nitpicking that the freezing effect isn't AZ...don't tell me you expect Frosts to start a villain monologue to explain how they freeze at AZ or the game narrator to explain it to ya....

If thats the kind of requirement you have since you are denying the already good enough proof that is provided then its obstinate as hell on your part to enforce such specific and impossible standards.

Besides why would you argue that the specific attack doesn't freeze at AZ.....its equivalent of freezing spell that freezes you at AZ.....its not just a simple projectile that happens to be AZ and ends up freezing the target via collateral beacause it exploded near the target.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Earl this line of logic is not even accepted on the wiki. It doesn't matter how many times you tell me that's how you think it is in terms of gameplay and what's canon or not.
Click to expand...
I mean do you have any argument for it besides "not the line of logic that's accepted on the wiki"? And for that logic one do bring me a line to quote where the wiki says all gameplay is canon.
Theglassman12 said:
This is practically the same type of logic you used to justify removing all the royal guard feats in the DMC speed downgrade thread, and everyone there that read the entire discussion agreed that it being gameplay meant jack shit because the feat is something that happens regardless if it's gameplay or not.
Click to expand...
Ugh, let's not bring up that.
1. The fact that oven said that one line and everyone went like "ugh yeah that makes sense" despite multiple ppl saying "other verses have different circumstances" is not sth i to this day agree with.
2. That was a different case entirely cus that was an argument of what he "can" do. If we use that same argument here (the one you guys were using), it would sound something like "in gameplay Dante is capable of dodging that particle beam, so in canon he can as well". So at this point just pick your poison.
Theglassman12 said:
This is not how things work here, so your argument doesn't work whatsoever. So either make a CRT to change how we already dictate what's considered canon or not, or stop arguing this entirely. If you're going to keep bringing up the same points that no one buys for the slightest without any CRTs to get the wiki to accept,
Click to expand...
Bring me the standard and i will gladly make the CRT. As i've said CRT is for revising content. You saying "you need it here" has literally 0 backing, it's just your word, not the wiki's way of doing things. So i need you to either show me a standard or prove to me that i indeed need to do a CRT despite there being no standard in play. Call AKM or sth idk.
Theglassman12 said:
or if you're not going to talk about a different topic, I will close this thread. This is your last warning.
Click to expand...
It is not my place to talk about other things. It is yours. I already have what i have to say on them on the OP, you have to bring up arguments then the debate starts. Also you'd be better off without the warnings you're not scaring anyone and you'd not be in the right by closing this thread prematurely. So drop it.
Theglassman12 said:
Being frozen by definition cools you down to whatever temperature the ice is to begin with.
Click to expand...
AGH. You see what i mean by 9th grade physics? You REALLY said "that if i hit you with a -10 degree ice you will be frozen in -10 degrees"? Did you actually say that or did you just word it in a bad way?
Theglassman12 said:
And that thread again does not debunk the AZ resistance Dante gets. Because he's not just getting hit, he's getting frozen by the frost demons with absolute zero ice.
Click to expand...
Which happens because he's getting hit. The method doesn't change. If you read the explanation for why getting hit doesn't count you'd understand that being frozen makes no difference either. Unless you're implying ice can only be AZ temperature. Which i hope you're not.
Theglassman12 said:
Regardless you bringing up the standard, which I'm already aware of, does not change anything because everything about the frost demons points to absolute zero resistance being legit.
Click to expand...
Never said you're not aware of it, you're just not aware of why it doesn't count.
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Uuuhhh.....page itself mentions getting frozen by AZ is legit....and so should resistance for surviving it!?!?
At this point you are stone walling and nitpicking that the freezing effect isn't AZ...don't tell me you expect Frosts to start a villain monologue to explain how they freeze at AZ or the game narrator to explain it to ya....
Click to expand...
No, it says being frozen IN AZ is legit, not frozen BY AZ. There is a huge difference.
 
Being frozen by definition cools you down to the temperature that the ice is to begin with.

I don't see the problem with the AZ resistance for Dante.
 
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Mister6ame6 said:
Being frozen by definition cools you down to the temperature that the ice is to begin with.

I don't see the problem with the AZ resistance for Dante.
Click to expand...
9th grade physics say no. No for real guys you can't be serious when you say that.

If you put ice in water what do you think happens? The water will turn to ice?
 
Alright, I gave you a warning and you didn't listen. I'm gonna close this. If you want this opened back up, make a CRT to change the standard on video game canonicity and actually get it accepted by a good chunk of the wiki. Then we can continue this topic once you get some actual ground to work on.
 
Reopened on a closure appeal.

It's not in writing anywhere that we always take the gameplay stuff as canon, and even if it was, you don't have to make a site wide revision to argue that something should be treated differently from the norm like that. It's not some sort of a banned topic, and it makes much more sense to argue about something DMC related in a DMC thread than dragging the entire wiki into it. While it's nice to have some sort of default to refer to in cases of uncertainty, that does not preclude arguments against the merits of this default applying to the scenario at hand.

have fun dmc fans i guess
 
While I agree with Glass, I partially agree with Earl as well. From how many revision goes, it seems that gameplay is only canon when it benefit the verse...

This thread isn't progressing anywhere though.
 
As far as I remember lore >> gameplay

However cutscene and stuff that happens on them that is not on lore is taken as canon as there is no contradiction

At least that's how I though it was
 
Wokistan said:
Reopened on a closure appeal.

It's not in writing anywhere that we always take the gameplay stuff as canon, and even if it was, you don't have to make a site wide revision to argue that something should be treated differently from the norm like that. It's not some sort of a banned topic, and it makes much more sense to argue about something DMC related in a DMC thread than dragging the entire wiki into it. While it's nice to have some sort of default to refer to in cases of uncertainty, that does not preclude arguments against the merits of this default applying to the scenario at hand.

have fun dmc fans i guess
Click to expand...
Whatever Earl said, I get the feeling he was being heavily disingenuous with how he worded things.

In fact I actually have his HR report on hand.

In that CRT, there are a lot of points left to discuss. 1 of them being "Dante tanks a particle beam". This however only happens in gameplay if the player doesn't dodge the particle beam as in cutscenes (the primary canon of the game) he chooses to put barriers in front of him to block the same attack instead of just getting hit. My issues are:

1. "Gameplay for any game is always canon" isn't a standard currently however ppl are saying that since other games treat gameplay as canon i have to make a CRT to debunk it all at once (which i personally do not get, as each game has its own circumstances regarding gameplay and should be discussed on a case by case). Do you think i have to make this CRT to include all of them or can this be discussed case by case?

2. That was only 1 of the things that was being discussed. Because @Theglassman12 did not like that 1 point, he completely closed the thread despite me and other people (glass included) having been discussing other points of the CRT that have no relation to the gameplay thing. Could you check this behavior as closing a CRT cus a staff member doesn't like 1 of the 10 points being discussed doesn't seem like a good reason and feels to me like power abuse.

Earl wasn't really telling the truth. He was actually hyper fixating a crap ton on gameplay determining certain hax resistances, and basically kept trying to hammer it in over and over again. We even made counterpoints to his argument of gameplay not being canon in DMC (Considering the fact that each of the so called "gameplay" mechanics actually have lore descriptions, the devs of the game literally going out of their way to "Make it so you can do anything you can do in a cutscene in the gameplay" etc.) He hasn't given anything viable to actually debunk gameplay applying to DMC. There's nothing contradicting between gameplay and lore, he's just been stonewalling for the entirety of the thread.

He's abusing not taking gameplay seriously in this sense and basically going the route of "Well I don't know, gameplay isn't linear and you can do this or that or suck." This logic can be practically applied to any game verse. For example, The Ashen One from Dark Souls you can say "Well you can beat the game at soul level 1, so all the enemies are just fodder" because of how the mechanics work. In fact this logic can be spread out across most if not all RPG verses. For example in the Persona series, some of our speed ratings are based around the party members being capable of dodging certain attacks, however one can use this logic and say "Well thats gameplay mechanics they aren't guaranteed to dodge, they could just completely eat shit, therefore non-canon." It can even apply to relatively simple verses, such as Mario. "You can just beat the game without using power ups, therefore the powerups don't exist."

He hasn't actually been trying to prove logical discrepancies in the listed abilities thus far. He's just been speculating as to whether or not this or that happens inbetween cutscenes.
 
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Theglassman12 said:
@Wokistan the stuff Earl is arguing that we keep telling him to drop is that gameplay is not canon because you can die in the game, and no cutscenes to prove that it’s canon. If that’s seriously how we treat videogame canonicity, then 90% of the feats/abilities for video game characters wouldn’t even exist.
Click to expand...
AogiriKira said:
Earl wasn't really telling the truth. He was actually hyper fixating a crap ton on gameplay determining certain hax resistances, and basically kept trying to hammer it in over and over again. We even made counterpoints to his argument of gameplay not being canon in DMC (Considering the fact that each of the so called "gameplay" mechanics actually have lore descriptions, the devs of the game literally going out of their way to "Make it so you can do anything you can do in a cutscene in the gameplay" etc.) He hasn't given anything viable to actually debunk gameplay applying to DMC. There's nothing contradicting between gameplay and lore, he's just been stonewalling for the entirety of the thread.

He's abusing not taking gameplay seriously in this sense and basically going the route of "Well I don't know, gameplay isn't linear and you can do this or that or suck." This logic can be practically applied to any game verse. For example, The Ashen One from Dark Souls you can say "Well you can beat the game at soul level 1, so all the enemies are just fodder" because of how the mechanics work. In fact this logic can be spread out across most if not all RPG verses. For example in the Persona series, some of our speed ratings are based around the party members being capable of dodging certain attacks, however one can use this logic and say "Well thats gameplay mechanics they aren't guaranteed to dodge, they could just completely eat shit, therefore non-canon." It can even apply to relatively simple verses, such as Mario. "You can just beat the game without using power ups, therefore the powerups don't exist."
Click to expand...
It's not an argument that's not allowed to be made though. If it's just been rejected and he won't accept that that's different, but the closure message made it look like it was closed just for him arguing something that isn't the norm.

I'll get back to which way it ends up after reading through this.
 
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