Absolute Zero Standards Revision

[Kepekley23]

I will make this revision relatively short and straightforward since it isn't too complicated to understand and thus doesn't need an in-depth explanation.

Currently, we grant Absolute Zero to anyone who is stated or shown in some way to have attacks or abilities involving hitting foes with absolute-zero cold. While this is obvious and basic logic, my problem is that we treat such abilities as ignoring conventional durability altogether, because anything heated down to Absolute Zero would have their internal entropy and molecules stopped to a literal halt.

The concept of anything heated down to Absolute Zero ignoring durability is reasonable in itself. I am not questioning that anyone who has shown the ability to cool their opponent down to Absolute Zero directly should be capable of ignoring their enemy's dura via the previously illustrated concept.

The problem here is:

• Being HIT by an ATTACK that has Absolute Zero heat doesn't replicate the effects of being cooled down to such a temperature.

There is an enormous difference between directly lowering your opponent's body heat to AZ and hitting them with an attack that is AZ. This is because an Absolute Zero object, upon hitting anything that has heat, would actually absorb its heat, thus ceasing to be an AZ object. While it would undoubtedly kill a normal human, that would be because our body heat isn't sufficient to heat it up to levels we can withstand. If you were strong enough to throw an Absolute-Zero baseball at the Sun, it wouldn't make any noticeable difference.

Anyone with sufficiently powerful skin would be able to weather a large Absolute Zero object being tossed at them. And by sufficiently powerful, I mean anything remotely tier 8.

Therefore, I propose we drop Durability Negation for any Absolute-Zero wielders, unless said wielders directly manipulate the body heat of their foe through some means, disregarding the need for attacks. Anyone who is AZ via having AZ magical attacks or weapons wouldn't qualify for Durability Negation.

 

[DMUA]

This is bamboozling, but makes sense

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that this seems to make sense.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I also think this makes sense.

 

[Rocker1189]

This makes sense.

 

[First_Witch]

Kepe's explanation makes sense, i agree for now,

 

[Wokistan]

Ice already has a weird relationship with durability in the first place. Wacking someone with an AZ ball shouldn't exactly be the greatest thing for the fluids in the cells of their opponent, nor for wiring and stuff that's found in a robot.

I agree with the general idea though in that it's not the same type of durability negation as outright matter manip or something more exotic like existence erasure and would just be a better version of what you can already do with temperature manip stuff though.

 

[Kepekley23]

Anyone who is just stopping by to say "this is gonna be good", please stop. All this does is clog the thread.

 

[The_Causality]

I'am more concerned about Hyoga and the Camus which throw beam of Absolute Zero which cover the whole body, if this is applied, that's mean that, AZ which work on cover the body with an absolute zero temp are no longer durability negation?

Also, i'am not sure about the "anything abovetier 8 can tank AZ", because even if we remove dura neg, the cold is enough to freeze almost all atoms of the body, which stregnht can't do something.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Absolute Zero as complete, outright Durability Negation never quite made sense to me. I agree with Kepekley here.

 

[Kepekley23]

It wouldn't be the greatest thing but it's not durability negation. Heat can only penetrate skin depending on the "durability" and conduof the skin itsef. Granted that some series obviously think heat is this thing totally separate from physical durability, going by the copous amounts of series that have tier 6+ characters be greatly injured by lava or the Sun, but unless we revise our whole heat standards instead of just AZ, an AZ attack would be just "normal frostbite^10"

 

[Antoniofer]

This have sense, although even if is not AZ it still cause (at least I presume) cellular damage and everything than that imply.

 

[LightinAnt]

It wouldn't be the greatest thing but it's not durability negation. Heat can only penetrate skin depending on the "durability" and conduof the skin itsef. Granted that some series obviously think heat is this thing totally separate from physical durability, going by the copous amounts of series that have tier 6+ characters be greatly injured by lava or the Sun, but unless we revise our whole heat standards instead of just AZ, an AZ attack would be just "normal frostbite^10"

It baffles me that noone thought of this in the years that AZ was on this wikia

 

[Wokistan]

Coldness stuff isn't really the same as someone trying to burn someone else though, unless we're going to say that high tier characters will retain body heat much more easily and radiate much less or something.

 

[Kepekley23]

In this case it's the exact same concept.

The only thing that would ignore durability is directly using some sort of psychic ability to manipulate your foe's body heat. Anything else would just be comparable to a human being hit in the chest by some arbitrary -10 (just to throw numbers) degrees Celsius ball, except in this case it's a superhuman tier 8+ tier vs. another tier 8 heat manipulator (just to, once again, throw numbers). It would obviously be cold as hell because your body can't compensate enough for the heat change, but it wouldn't "ignore your durability" in the conventional sense.

 

[The_Causality]

I see

I still find treating Ice stuff as "if you are stronger, then you resist" weird, AZ is still supposed to lower all of your atoms, it's a bit like add Resistance to Ice stuff to everything above tier 8, or you suggest that we could treat Ice based attack not via the "temperature" but the level of the ice user and what level he can freeze?

 

[TriforcePower1]

I agree with this

 

[Wokistan]

In this case it's the exact same concept.

The only thing that would ignore durability is directly using some sort of psychic ability to manipulate your foe's body heat. Anything else would just be comparable to a human being hit in the chest by some arbitrary -10 (just to throw numbers) degrees Celsius ball, except in this case it's a superhuman tier 8+ tier vs. another tier 8 heat manipulator. It would obviously be cold as hell because your body can't compensate enough for the heat change, but it wouldn't "ignore your durability" in the conventional sense.

So basically, you're saying its the same as "regular" really cold stuff, where it's not quite true durability negation but still would be worse off than other attacks of that paygrade should be? The expansion of fluids in cells should still be a thing.

 

[Agnaa]

I agree with this change.

 

[KLOL506]

Not gonna lie, this makes sense.

 

[Kepekley23]

@Woki

Pretty much, yeah.

 

[Wokistan]

Well I'm fine with that. Chalk me up for agree.

 

[The_Causality]

Woki's idea was what i've thought

I agree then

 

[Theglassman12]

I agree with this, though what about the whole rule of there has to be more proof for said ability to be Absolute Zero? Is that still gonna be the same or is that gonna change as well?

 

[Kepekley23]

Not gonna change.

 

[The_Causality]

I agree with this, though what about the whole rule of there has to be more proof for said ability to be Absolute Zero? Is that still gonna be the same or is that gonna change as well?

Not needed IMO, Without statement/feat we don't give this ability, it's pretty simple

 

[DontTalkDT]

Heat is a defense against absolute zero, yes.

In principle being hit with something like an absolute zero gust of air will also ignore durability, if the user keeps it up. Heat would flow from the target to the air slowly cooling the target down. If we go with thermodynamics probably not to AZ, but low enough to ignore durability in some ways, I think. (With some ways I mean stuff, like freezing water in the cells disablying them in the process or freezing blood)

It's just that it needs time and the natural defense against that is to produce more body heat (which many superhuman chars can't).


But yes, in principle it shouldn't ignore durability in the same way as direct AZ.

 

[Kepekley23]

I mean - temperature is directly related to kinetic energy, which is why the faster you go, the more heat is generated by your body, and also why we don't accept stupid low-ends like tier 6s and 5s being harmed by lava or by the Sun. In theory, almost any superhuman character already has feats of withstanding high temperatures and generating considerably higher body heat than your average human, which is why I said in the OP that anything remotely tier 8 should be able to interact with an AZ object relatively normally.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Yeah that does make sense, I agree as well.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Works for me, no specific problems. You'd still get an idea of the cold- I can touch a stove or a piece of ice and be affected- but my body temperature wouldn't physically become that heat.

Straightforward enough. Cheers.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I'am more concerned about Hyoga and the Camus which throw beam of Absolute Zero which cover the whole body, if this is applied, that's mean that, AZ which work on cover the body with an absolute zero temp are no longer durability negation?

I don't think Hyoga and Camus would be affected by the change. IIRC, their attacks deal with stopping the very movements of atoms, thus achieving AZ. Wouldn't that still count as durability negation?

 

[Wokistan]

If you can reduce the temperature of your opponent themselves to 0 kelvin, you still retain durability negation.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

@The Causality. I don't think Hyoga, and camus, will be affected by much. His Saint Seiya Omega counter part (Hyoga only) froze someone who is beyond the concept of time with his Chronotector on, whose atomic state, and matter were made unbreakable and unmovable with him stopping his own time. [ https://imgur.com/a/H76kVDF ]

I don't have the scan, but his G/Assassins counter part (hyoga only, but he did fight a Gold god Cloth camus with and without his Gold cloth.) literally froze flames, and he stated he will "transcend the laws of physics" as he froze fire over.

This is what the classic series of saint seiya says about AZn (both of them) [ https://imgur.com/a/VfpxSRh ]

other wise they could negate durability (both of them again.). Atom destruction, or micro-quantic destruction [ https://imgur.com/a/lhZX4cU ] and soul destruction [ https://imgur.com/a/HigpwyC ]

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'm genuinely curious if there's any AZ users on the wiki that don't have any methods of manipulating an opponent's body heat.

That put I'm sort of on the fence on heat manipulation ignoring durability in general. It seems like a fair point that if characters haven't withstood extreme heat or coldthey should succum to it, but there's issues with higher tiers in accepting that I guess.

I'm supportive of this for now. However, how would the rapid exchange of heat towards a AZ object not ignore durability when touching any biological character? Or are we saying higher-tier characters some sort of higher "energy pool" to give out?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Agreed with kep

 

[Andytrenom]

What if you are trapped inside an absolute zero where the temperature is absolute zero and what if you live in a realm that is of absolute zero temperatures?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

So just to clarify the summary, the OP is simply saying that whacking someone with a staff that's Absolute Zero doesn't negate durability? And has nothing to do with freeze rays or magical spells that are meant to freeze the target to Absolute Zero from the inside out?

 

[Agnaa]

So just to clarify the summary, the OP is simply saying that whacking someone with a staff that's Absolute Zero doesn't negate durability? And has nothing to do with freeze rays or magical spells that are meant to freeze the target to Absolute Zero from the inside out?

If someone sends an Absolute Zero ball of ice at the target, it will no longer negate durability. If they can actually reduce the target's temperature to Absolute Zero, it will still negate durability.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That's what I pretty much meant.

 

[Flashlight237]

I can see why this makes sense. Absolute zero is the absence of thermal energy. When heating or cooling something, you're either putting in or taking out thermal energy. I don't think thermal energy ever bypassed conventional durability.